after every shooting tragedy the question’s asked about what would it take to see a change in US gun culture.

But WTAF?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-61192975

I mean, we know it’s bad, but those numbers are ridiculous.

It’s fine, they’ve only got 390 million guns.

It’s fine, they’ve only got 390 million guns.

They could easily send a few hundred thousand to Ukraine, except most of those owners are likely RepugliKKKans, who follow Agent Orange in believing everything that comes from Putin and his useful idiots in the US media.

390 million guns and a population of 332,403,650 – fire power to the people!

https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

I can’t see it ever changing over there, not enough people want it to, not even close.

Yes guns seem to be so engrained in the culture that there is no way that’s ever going to change. Gun control measures are seen as a guaranteed way of losing an election.

not enough people want it to, not even close.

From what I recall quite a few do but the majority arent as motivated, or funded by russian money, as the pro gun lobby to put pressure on politicians.
There are some suggestions it will change though as schoolkids who have grown up with active shooter drills get old enough to vote and start asking why they did so.

I was reading about Texas and how lots of Californians are moving there for taxation reasons.

Flippantly mentioned to the wife that we should move there. She then reminded me of their relaxed attitude to firearms. It’s an open carry culture.

That’d freak me out.

Yes guns seem to be so engrained in the culture that there is no way that’s ever going to change. Gun control is seen as a guaranteed way of losing an election.

I think the most positive thing to take from the US it to leave them be, rotting in their own culture; but to hold it up high on a pedestal for all to see as a warning that there be dragons going down that route.

didnthurt
Full Member
I was reading about Texas and how lots of Californians are moving there for taxation reasons.

When I was in Houston years back I remember seeing pictures of hands guns on the gates to peoples properties.

A bit like we might have “private, keep out” but far, far more to the point.

Yes, it’s an odd state/ country regarding the love of guns. Many other things too, actually.

The trip made me realise that Britain is far, far more aligned to Europe in so many ways than it is to America. The shared language with America just hides the fact.

after every shooting tragedy the question’s asked about what would it take to see a change in US gun culture.

It will not happen in my lifetime.

The worst thing that could possibly happen, did happen, at Sandy Hook. If that didn’t spark change, nothing will, IMO.

I can’t see it ever changing over there, not enough people want it to, not even close

Gun control actually polls very favourably- almost always in the majority. It’s just that the NRA is an incredibly powerful lobbyist

I live in an open-carry area. It’s something to see elderly men, barely able to walk, with a gun on their hips. At the grocery store. It’s not just the NRA, the arms manufacturers, the Gun Owners of America, and other gun-related groups have donated millions to candidates from each party. The only way to change gun laws here is to change how the candidates’ campaign funding is operated. And that’s not going to happen. Corporate interests > lives of American children.

The worst thing that could possibly happen, did happen, at Sandy Hook. If that didn’t spark change, nothing will, IMO.

^That – if that wasn’t the catalyst for change, what possibly could be? The US will have to continue to play with the cards with which it dealt itself.

Ever since then, my reaction to the next shooter event has just been a ‘meh’.

Car have got much, much safer over the last 50 years. Guns have not changed so not surprised. In a way the number of people dying in car crashes is more of a problem to me.

Car have got much, much safer over the last 50 years. Guns have not changed so not surprised. In a way the number of people dying in car crashes is more of a problem to me

This.

Article says a lot. But not enough. More info on the geography and economics would help.

[edited out my long ramble]

NRA is a menace.

Glad we don’t have guns easily accessible here. Especially given the funeral director road rage thread.

I think it’s difficult for us over here to understand the depths to which American’s relationship to both their constitution and their relationship with weaponry go almost literally hand in hand. For lots of them, taking away their right to carry guns, means and end to them being American.

They’ve decided collectively that the endless death toll* is worth the price. Let them get on with it. The weird thing for me is that knowing what legalised weaponry looks like, they (and people tin this country for that matter) still persist with the idea that somehow the legalisation of recreational drugs is still worth campaigning for.

*because, despite that headline, gun deaths in america is mostly young black men, and as long as that persists, no one in the US – in power,  gives a shit.

NRA is a menace.

The NRA is broke, and no one is a member really anymore. I think they still pay the catchall bogie-man, but their influence is waning, and other organisations – some of them far right, but lots of them advocating for black Americans and left wing owners groups have taken over

I live in an open-carry area. It’s something to see elderly men, barely able to walk, with a gun on their hips. At the grocery store.

Do the open carry areas correlate with the areas where the gun violence is happening? Genuine question, not trolling.

The weird thing for me is that knowing what legalised weaponry looks like, they (and people tin this country for that matter) still persist with the idea that somehow the legalisation of recreational drugs is still worth campaigning for.

What does that have to do with anything?

Gun homicides and suicides are just a symptom of something bigger that won’t solved just by legislation relating to guns. The only thing stricter controls and reduced ownership would address is accidental gun deaths. There are other countries with similarly high levels of ownership but much lower rates of violence.

What causes high rates of both suicide and homocide is an unjust and unfair society – taking guns out of the equaition just means those people would use different tools. That doesnt mean the US’s gun laws aren’t idiotic but it does mean the US really does have much, much bigger problems to solve and unfortunately arguing for or against guns just keeps really change off the agenda.

They’ve decided collectively that the endless death toll* is worth the price. Let them get on with it. The weird thing for me is that knowing what legalised weaponry looks like, they (and people tin this country for that matter) still persist with the idea that somehow the legalisation of recreational drugs is still worth campaigning for.

I’m totally confused. Can you show your working please…

What does that have to do with anything?

Because both are a societal harm. Replace the word gun with drugs, and it’s the same argument.

Spent some time in Atlanta over the past few years and once managed to get tickets to the masters golf.
In a car with 3 other guys I was the only one not armed.

They all say that it is to protect themselves, families and property and I cannot ever see it changing.

It is quite something to go to a shooting range(if you have never been to one before) and see a sign saying 50cal for rent 50 $ per hour and 6$ per round.

Because both are a societal harm. Replace the word gun with drugs, and it’s the same argument.

Yes but by removing drugs from the black market you remove the organised crime element and associated the violence, not to mention the tax loss.

Also, I’ve yet to hear of someone being beaten to death with a nine bar.

What causes high rates of both suicide and homocide is an unjust and unfair society – taking guns out of the equaition just means those people would use different tools. That doesnt mean the US’s gun laws aren’t idiotic but it does mean the US really does have much, much bigger problems to solve and unfortunately arguing for or against guns just keeps really change off the agenda.

This. The guns and drugs are symptoms, not the problem.

The guns and drugs are symptoms, not the problem.

I was just about to post this. Other countries have lots of guns, often just as many, but nowhere the same gun deaths.

American society has serious problems and the love of and use of guns are just symptoms.

Watch some American TV and count how many times someone gets threatened one way or the other. Remember the Jetsons? Even in that silly show, Mr Spacely Sprockets is always throwing his weight around threatening to fire Jetson, and Jetson is always in fear of him. This is a representation of the power heirarchy. US society is frequently based on gaining power over others. Guns are part of that, as are MMA and bulking up in the gym etc.

The NRA and mostly Republican party like to foster the concept that owning a gun will stand you in good stead should the government become a dictatorship and try to suppress the people. And owning weapons mean the public can rise up and fight back.

As such,they truly believe these mass murders, and other random killings are a necessary evil.

Of course should the government ever become dictatorial, hand guns and a few rifles, semi automatic or otherwise are going the last seconds against the military.

 a few rifles, semi automatic or otherwise are going the last seconds against the military.

390 million might last a bit longer though!

Glad we don’t have guns easily accessible here. Especially given the funeral director road rage thread.

Yeah I’m glad I can take action against dangerous self entitlement without fear of being shot.

This. The guns and drugs are symptoms, not the problem.

They are, but treating the cause and the symptoms at the same time isn’t unheard of.

I think the thing that’s most concerning is the rise of the “Militias” in recent years. Those tubby lads with an AR15s and vests playing soldier outside various state assemblies, courthouses and whenever a BLM march was organised. Quite what their values are and why they feel the need for a visible show of militaristic force is always a simmering issue under the surface for many…

Kyle Rittenhouse’s acquittal definitely sent a message, rules about carrying weapons across state lines, firing on and killing strangers don’t apply so much if your skin is the right shade…

America’s biggest problem is still wealth and race inequalities, it differs from state to state and community to community, but Americans acquire and carry firearms because they are (often legitimately) afraid of their fellow Americans.

This is the twisting of their “Right to bare arms” today, originally it was intended to help defend the nation against external threats (like us Brits) or to patch up the minimal justice system in the less populated areas of the frontier. Over time it’s become about “defending” oneself against the perceived threat of someone a few doors down wanting to take all your stuff, or conversely law enforcement wanting to kill you simply because you aren’t white enough. All fuelled by Fox news/Q/trumpism (take your pick).

Nobody’s right or wrong, Americans growing mistrust/resentment of one another and their ever increasing social and financial division are real and there’s no obvious willingness to address the core inequalities damaging their society. So the symptoms will persist.

The UK isn’t actually so different, we have the same core problems, the wealth divide is growing yet we only seem to put top 5%ers in government, somehow believing that trickle down economics is a real thing. But our national response to events like Dunblane or Hungerford has resulted in guns being far harder to obtain and better controlled/monitored when they are (legally).
We still have plenty of knife crime and drug related problems, and the fundamental issue behind much of that is still wealth and attainment inequalities driven from the top.

But for a few events in our own history affecting our national attitude and laws relating to firearms, the UK could be in a very similar state today. I’m not sure we’re in any position to judge really…

America’s biggest problem is still wealth and race inequalities

But racism is itself a symptom; black people are just another group over whom to assert power. Same as women, the poor, skinny nerds, and the rest. American society is fundamentally macho, dog-eat-dog to its core, so everyone’s involved in a power game wether they like it or not. Guns just facilitate this, as do gyms and even jobs. People are fighting for status any way they can.

Don’t get me wrong – there are lots of people not playing this game, but it’s being played on everyone all the time.

It’s the type of guns they are allowed which baffles me, why a member of the public needs a semi-automatic assault rifle or a .50cal sniper rifle is beyond me. And when you have nutters such as Ted Cruz, Lauren Boebert, Marjorie Taylor Greene, and the likes elected nothing will change.

Yes but by removing drugs from the black market you remove the organised crime element and associated the violence, not to mention the tax loss.

Here’s the same argument; Yes but by removing guns from the black market you remove the organised crime element and associated the violence, not to mention the tax loss.

This is such a terrible story but sadly not wholly surprising. It is perhaps however more a product of child deaths being relatively rare more than it is that child deaths by gun are exceptionally high; my point being that you wouldn’t need many child gun deaths for this statistic to become true.

I actually did some research into this subject (gun violence in the US) as I wanted to understand what was really going on.

I looked at rates of gun ownership around the world (firearms per 100 head of capita) and then looked up the data for those countries’ rates of violent crime (one data point) and gun homicide (a separate data point). I then did regression analysis between the two to see if there was any relationship between either of those two data points and rates of gun ownership. It’s a relatively facile analysis but interestingly the value of R was something like 0.01 (note I did this analysis for every country in the world so not a small data set).

However, when you replace rates of gun ownership with the Gini coefficient (the ratio of wealth between the top quartile and bottom quartile, i.e. a measure of wealth inequality) the value of R jumped up to something like 0.7.

The one thing that the analysis doesn’t account for is that whilst there are plenty of other counties with very high levels of gun ownership, Switzerland and the nordics being good examples (which also have vanishingly low levels of both violent crime and gun homicide), the US is so far ahead in those rates (of gun ownership) that they are a complete outlier. there are 122 guns per 100 people in the US. The next closest is the Falklands (66) and the next large industrialised nation is Canada (33).

It’s possible that it is relative abundance rather than actual gun ownership that is the problem. Certainly you cannot make the argument that guns in society leads to high levels of violent crime (and keep in mind that violent crime and homicide is a problem regardless of how it’s perpetrated; the fact that most homicides are executed by gun in a country where guns are legal is not indicative of there being a gun problem per say, more a problem with violent crime).

Very clearly the real problem in the US and elsewhere is wealth inequality. That is what drives violent crime and that is the problem we should aim to avoid in the UK, though we are starting to lose that battle.

As for the child gun mortality rate, I wonder whether accidental deaths are the product of prevalence and thus prevalence drives carelessness; the more guns you have in your house, the more likely it is you will lose track of one and make it available for small hands to play with.

Part of the gun ownership is about hunting. It’s not a sport for a few wealthy people as here, it’s a cheap way to fill the freezer with meat for many in rural areas, and a lot of America is rural. So rifles account for a lot of the gun figures. I suspect that also goes a long way towards normalizing guns. Yes hand guns and concealed or open carry is different to hunting rifles but guns are a tool for them. The states have their own laws and I think the tougher rules tend to be in the urban states (but not all urban states have tougher laws)…. Think… Not certain though.

Part of the gun ownership is about hunting. It’s not a sport for a few wealthy people as here, 

That will come as a shock to all the camo wearing shotgun toting yokels from the local estate round here.

Here’s the same argument; Yes but by removing guns from the black market you remove the organised crime element and associated the violence, not to mention the tax loss.

And it would be a shite argument given other people rarely get killed by drugs. But keep going if you think folk smoking a bit of weed is in any way comparable to walking around armed.

However, when you replace rates of gun ownership with the Gini coefficient (the ratio of wealth between the top quartile and bottom quartile, i.e. a measure of wealth inequality) the value of R jumped up to something like 0.7.

A very interesting experiment but is it correlation or causation? Might the right wing governments that promote inequality be voted for by people who like guns as an expression of power over others?