More kneejerk anti-Americanism from clueless morons.

Grow up.

For any Americans that happen to be reading this thread, the majority of us are not like these cocks, who appear to have got lost on their way to the Guardian’s CiF site.

very few people are going to be qualified to make a valid judgement based on first hand experience

Perfectly true but then comments should be made with that in mind and particularly so when they seem to simply be using a sad situation to strengthen their case for their viewpoint (anti-americanism in this case). I’m no fan of the macho US attitude to war/’diplomacy’ but these sorts of comments are akin to people using the spread of AIDS to justify their homophobic views.

as said earlier, as if what they tell us on the news is right,they haven’t got a clue whats going on and will say anything to grab a headline,

the only ones who will know how it rolled are the ones who were there and the powers that put them there, the rest of us are better of focusing on Rooney and scanky prostitues, the press bunch of numpties

the rest of us are better of focusing on Rooney and scanky prostitues

At which point we should kiss goodbye to democracy and any illusions of the educated, well informed populace that should be the cornerstone of our societal values – FFS 👿

This sort of disengaged ignorant nonsense makes me very angry. Probably the sort of detached indifference that allowed Blair to be re-elected after lying his way into Ws Iraq war

I kissed goodbye to that notion a long time ago, one thing that the UK has lead the world in is replacing news with gutter journalism in order to distract us from reality.

This sort of disengaged ignorant nonsense makes me very angry

Well I do think it’s sad. Just as I find it sad when people let their prejudices affect rational thought as has been the case in this thread (and TBH most of the politics threads recently – from both sides…)

Most comments on this thread have actually been quite balanced, the accusations of anti-Americanism have actually been worse than the anti-Americanism itself (even though that was clearly the ops original intent).

the accusations of anti-Americanism have actually been worse than the anti-Americanism itself

How so?

When I saw it was American Special Forces I thought, ‘they should have sent ours.

To be fair to them though, they put their lives on the line, and had it gone right, they’d have been heroes.

Can’t be easy to get anyone out of a situation like that.

The only person who never made a mistake is the person who never did anything.

Rkk01

Man you really need to chill out , I love that you think that a snap comment
About a fat footballer and his desires is tantamount to bringing down the country,

I was just pointing out that we are not privy to such matters
And will never be and rightly so, we as a populace could not stomach the
Truth or make the decisions that others do,

We only know what we read and what we see on the box ,

You keep on thinking you are informed m8 , the real truth would make your
Pi55 boil 8)

Not trawling through the whole thread, but the few UK blokes i know who have seen war, will tell you that when you are in trouble. It is always the yanks who come in and save your ass. Maybe they come in gung-ho and waste everything around you, but the blokes i knew, really didn’t mind too much at the time, or now, for that matter.

The latest on the story is that it is thought a grenade lobbed by one of the American rescuers is what actually killed the poor woman. I’m no military expert…

A mate of mine’s Best Man is in the Coldstream Guards (i.e. UK forces) and got himself in a bad way when one of his squad threw a grenade into a room, only to have it bounce off the back wall and straight back out again. 😯

Things go wrong when you throw little exploding bombs.

clubber – Member

the accusations of anti-Americanism have actually been worse than the anti-Americanism itself

How so?

well most comments have been quite reasoned for or against the americans, apart from bravotel who declared anyone who doesnt adhere to his blinkered views was a cock

I for one was glad of their assistance in the early nineties when we called in an airstrike had they not have been on the money I doubt I’d be typing this now.

kimbers – Member

How so?

well most comments have been quite reasoned for or against the americans, apart from bravotel who declared anyone who doesnt adhere to his blinkered views was a cock

The only ‘view’ that I expressed was that this troll thread was attracting kneejerk anti-Americanism from the usual suspects.

Is objecting to kneejerk anti-Americanism blinkered, then?

Yes, I described those who indulge in this as cocks. They are. Same goes for anyone who tries to lump a disparate group of people together as one homogenous group with shared character traits.

I guess you chose to forget this then…

Big Dave – Member
I think the ‘Special’ in American Special Forces is possibly short for special needs.

and this ill informed bollocks about the ‘American psychi’ (sic)
…ahh, 300 million people who think as one, like The Borg.

MSP – Member

I think the mistake the American military make is in trying to create a media image, in courting the media as they do they also highlight the mistakes. There may be something in the American psychi that causes that, an optimism that can cloud the possible negative outcomes.

and someone else bringing friendly fire into it for no apparent reason.
On that subject, the Americans have been responsible for more ‘blue on blues’ principally because they have many times more troops in theatre at any given point in addition to providing the vast majority of combat air support. Still, don’t let that stop the fun. All aboard the bandwagon, hey?

Rkk01

Man you really need to chill out , I love that you think that a snap comment
About a fat footballer and his desires is tantamount to bringing down the country,

I was just pointing out that we are not privy to such matters
And will never be and rightly so, we as a populace could not stomach the
Truth or make the decisions that others do,

We only know what we read and what we see on the box ,

You keep on thinking you are informed m8 , the real truth would make your
Pi55 boil

Err, you’ve made some pretty big assumptions about what I do know, don’t know or need to know… And, I’ve deliberately not commented on the rescue attempt, for reason of not wanting to fall back on assumptions and pre-conceptions.

Regarding needing to know, this…

not privy to such matters
And will never be and rightly so

… is utter nonsense.

It is what leads a country to re-elect a leader that “lied” (misrepresented?) about the reason to go o war in Iraq.

It is one reason why the Americans failed in Vietnam against the rising tide of the anti-war movement.

Arguably, it’s why the issue of UK eqpt provision and helicopters / flying hours didn’t become a major political issue much, much earlier than it did.

Too much detail can get into the media, too close to the event, and that can undermine operational procedures and security – but the UK Government media clampdown / blackout in Afghanistan protected the politicians arses rather than protected service personnel lives.

We only know what we read and what we see on the box ,

You keep on thinking you are informed m8 , the real truth would make your
Pi55 boil

Which makes my point, really.
I don’t claim to be informed, but I do know that what I have read and heard ought to shame UK politicians and journalists for keeping the public in the dark.

Yes, the real truth should have boiled the public’s piss – and that should have been routed back to the decision makers to get their bloody finger’s out.

I’ve worked with US Army and USMC, US Navy SEAL’s, and spent 10 months working with British Special Forces who I was trained to undertake LRRP’s and CSAR actions.

My great uncle was a WOII within the RM, SBS and SAS during the 1950’s, I’ve also had the opportunity to talk “off the record” with an Ex Sgt. who took part in the Iranian Embassy siege.

Belive me folks when I say no matter how hard you train you can still **** things up, and things get f**ked up, all you can do is try to reduice the risk by quality of training and hope for good luck.

There is a lot of things that have happened in various conflicts involving special forces that you will never read or hear about, best just to leave it that way 😉

When I’m on holiday, I’m generally first on the balcony.

CBA

How do we know the mission wasn’t a total success?

I’m sure the US special forces are extremely well trained and very competent. I’m also sure the US forces have helped lots of people out of bad spots. I’m even sure that the UK forces – including special forces – have made lots of cock-ups – I mean you only have to look at the last hostage rescue, hailed as a success because they rescued the principal, yet they killed 4 others including his Afghan interpreter.

However

Maybe they come in gung-ho and waste everything around you, but the blokes i knew, really didn’t mind too much at the time, or now, for that matter.

– that’s the whole problem. There’s no accident they have that reputation, and I’m sure the only reason your mates are happy is because they’re still here to be happy, not having been killed due to the gung ho attitude. The important question in this case is who thought grenades were a good idea in such a situation. Don’t go blaming it on heat of the moment either – if carrying grenades was a good idea then surely rules of engagement should have been better defined to limit their use. IMHO (and I’m sure I’ll get condemned as a keyboard warrior for this) somebody somewhere further up the management chain made the wrong decision on this issue, not to mention the strategic decision to go in in the first place.

On that subject, the Americans have been responsible for more ‘blue on blues’ principally because they have many times more troops in theatre at any given point in addition to providing the vast majority of combat air support.

Well if you want to discuss that, I’m fairly sure that on a per mission basis they’re still well ahead on the blue-on-blue count. No accident there either – there is a difference in the training and the general attitude within the military.

woahhh !

ace_sparky – WTF are all those MLA’s ?

agreed on pretty much all counts so far (why do we all have to take such polarised stances all the time ?)

tragic? – clearly
brave? – yes
poorly reported/ mis(or dis)informed? – probably
ill advised? – quite possibly
americans all shite? – unlikely

politicians (military andcivilian) ultimately to blame and likely never to tell the truth? – why, yes, I imagine they are

my total and utter guess (never having been a member of the special forces, 😉 ) is that some objective other than just possible rescue had presented itself – maybe a taliban bigwig was on the premises? I don’t see such a massive effort going into “just” rescuing this poor woman. Maybe I’m more cynical than I should be, but see above re politicians.

I wouldn’t bother RepacK, any excuse to be racist towards Americans is taken up on this forum

+1 The xenophobic attitudes on this forum are not only extremely old fashioned but numbingly boring too.

and someone else bringing friendly fire into it for no apparent reason

Difficult call and the USA defenders have to accept that their record on friendly fire deaths and refusal to testify here on these cases does lead to resentment. Yes sh1t happens in war but stand up and be counted for your errors.
Tough call IMHO damned if they do damned if they dont

Yes hard to see what I was on about there and not really knee-jerk anti-americanism.

My first thought on hearing it had gone wrong and she was blown up ‘probably by a suicide bomb’ was ‘well they would say that wouldn’t they’.

Of course that must just have been my knee jerk anti Americanism coming into play.

but the fact is they were prepared to die to rescue the hostage.

+1

we as a populace could not stomach the Truth or make the decisions that others do

Speak for yourself pal.

but the fact is they were prepared to die to rescue the hostage.

+1

Or more accurately, a senior field commander (and staff) assessed the risks and decided to issue orders for a rescue mission, having weighed up the chances of success against the risks to the team??

Well if you want to discuss that, I’m fairly sure that on a per mission basis they’re still well ahead on the blue-on-blue count. No accident there either – there is a difference in the training and the general attitude within the military.

Proof? Or just your opinion..

bravohotel9er – Member

and this ill informed bollocks about the ‘American psychi’ (sic)
…ahh, 300 million people who think as one, like The Borg.

MSP – Member

I think the mistake the American military make is in trying to create a media image, in courting the media as they do they also highlight the mistakes. There may be something in the American psychi that causes that, an optimism that can cloud the possible negative outcomes.

Of course nations have characteristics that liken them as a group, that’s not to say that everyone thinks the same as borg like drones, but they are the product of the same education systems, media exposure and the same political language that creates their understanding of the world.

And just for the record I am frequently embarrassed and dismayed by the actions of the “British authorities”, the decisions and cock-ups they make, and there attempts to cover up the truth. That doesn’t make me anti british, it means I can form my own view on events and not just accept the press release issued.

Too many people round here are reading Bravo two Zero stylee novels frankly!

A dangerous business without superhuman powers = high liklihood of things going wrong from time to time regardless of national sterotypes and lack of real information about what actually went on. No other sensible conclusion possible frankly.

There have been some awful blue on blue incidents amoung US soldiers, some of which won’t ever become public. They do have a gung ho reputation in military nations.

I know this from real life army men when training with HM Forces, not from a book or 212111451th hand.

Answering the OP – if I was a hostage at risk of being killed in any number of unpleasant ways and the results broadcast on YouTube for lots of crazies to gloat over, I’d be happy if anyone came and rescued me. Hell, I might even engage in a two-cheeked kiss if my liberators were French or Italian (just no touching the butt ok!).

Or more accurately, a senior field commander (and staff) assessed the risks and decided to issue orders for a rescue mission, having weighed up the chances of success against the risks to the team??

So as I said, and given the fact that the guys bursting through the door had a choice not to do it.

the fact is they were prepared to die to rescue the hostage.

I’d be very grateful that anyone would risk their life to attempt to rescue me from those animals (whom I hope died slowly).
Let us not forget that the american military have saved countless british lives by supplying fast air in afg (because the RAF now only have an unservicable air balloon and some old rotor blades). You won’t find many brit servicemen who will talk badly of them.

I’m as anti-American as they come. All my American friends have had to humbly acknowledge that they live in a failed state before I let them buy me drinks for the rest of the night.

However, if I was in a hostage situation with anyone who believed in an afterlife then I would be desperate for anyone to at least try and rescue me. Whatever the outcome, it’s got to be better than what happened to Ken Bigley or Margaret Hassan.

Saying that, I would make the American Special Forces humbly acknowledge that they live in a failed state before I let them buy me drinks for the rest of the night.

There is a lot of things that have happened in various conflicts involving special forces that you will never read or hear about

+1

Tora Bora.