MTB World! Where you can enjoy mtb in a designated, organised space, for your enjoyment and safety, for a fee.

Blurrrgghhh!

Thank god for the last few replies! Not a chance in hell I would pay to ride somewhere that I was riding the trails of years before someone decided they should 'build' some trails there!

And as for

outdoor sports that demand facilities

These 'facilities' are relatively modern concept in this sport!

People spend an incredible ammount of money on this sport/hobby as it is, maybe, since trail centres seem to be a way of introducing more and more people to the sport, and making it more accessible to new people, then the industry that benefits from such interest should put some money in.

"What is it with the British (English???) obsession with paying for what is already yours"

You built the trails then, right? Oh, no you didn't. Your argument would be fine if you just wanted to go and ride in a forest, but it's complete nonsense when related to a trail centre, with purpose built trails.

£5 for a day's riding at a quality centre would still be an incredible bargain. It would probably mean there'd be more cash for further building and maintenance, and also more incentive to build more and more interesting trails. And anyone who disapproves could of course ride elsewhere.

I think from this post, and from comments at centres, most people just have no idea what goes into building and maintaining these places. Yet still feel they have the right to moan about "sanitising" or bad surface conditions on the trails they pay nothing to use.

Someone asked about scottish land access- I believe there are specific exceptions, for instance you don't have the right to go and play on the pitch at Hampden.

The Forestry commission was founded after the first world war to provide timber to line trenches. Most of the wood from the FC has virtually zero commercial value nowadays. The FC needs to pay its way. Hence trail centres…

I'd pay the equivalent of a few pints per ride for a centre if I had to but far prefer to ride for free, but if you want to ride prepared trails, you have to pay.

I enjoy going out and digging and cutting, and cutting back overgrowth on a trial, and I count that as paying my way.

Seems like the usual few who expect somebody else to pay for their 'rights' have appeared. Facilities cost money which has to come from somewhere. You can ride on FC land, but only on properly surfaced trails (i.e. fireroads that are there to support forestry operations), the cheeky trails some of you have been riding for years amongst the trees have never been your right.

As I said before carparking charges are the best way forward as you are using the car parking facility. If you ride in it'll be free. And for those of you who don't like man made trails which require funds to maintain them, fine, stick to the bridleways etc.

Get over your self-righteous selves, we're not talking a bike tax here.

For me to pay, they'd really need to step it up a level.
I'm talking NUMEROUS trails (5 or 6+), minimal f*****g forest road and a decent cafe. No way would I pay for a non choice of a single trail (cwmcarn, betws etc). Bike wash should then be included and Glyncorrwg type facilities (minus thieves obv). I'm not against paying at all but I wouldnt pay to ride Glyngorrwg; 2 trails, one is a LOT of forest road and the chance my bike would be nicked but I really like the drop off and skyline cycles is brilliant. I'd be happy to throw a tenner at them for a day on some really good trails.

Couple of quid, no problem. Consider how much money most of us pay on petrol getting there in the first place, not to mention cake, tea and other essentials…..and 2 grand bikes.
As long as they actually used the money to maintain the trails, rather than counting on it as a revenue stream. Cym Carn XC course, for example, is becoming well worn in some sections and need of some love, if not a second XC trail.

Cost it out and come back with a decent figure…

Trail development (e.g. Gisburn) £75kish

Number visitors per year?

Potential ongoing costs?

I think at a £10er per visit you would recoup the investment very quickly…

Cwmcarn desperately needs a second trail to lighten the load IMO. I pay £5.20 to ride at Welsh trail centres – at the Severn Bridge.

On the principle nope not a chance. YEs trail cost money to maintain yes they cost money to build but FFS paying to ride your bike. What else a pay as you go charge on commuting to work? Parking fee ok shower fee ok jet wash fee ok. 5£ for a pizza that cost 50p at iceland ok too but are you people out of your effin mind what next a charge on the air you breeze.

Ridign is one of the last few sport that is free. I barely bite into the lift thing (that's for lazy fat arse) so there is not a chance that I pay to actually use a trail… And as for the 'did you build the trail' does it mean that you only ride on trail you can pay for or you have build yourself?

JFC you people are just mad…

rkk01, WTF!!!!

you on a car, bike or house right? You own it? But what iff thees a leak you cant fix? Why should you pay the plumber, afer all its already your house?

So why not pay for someo to build a trail, eve if it is i 'our' forrest.

And for being a nob i'm baning you from my little bit of this suppoed 'our' forest, wherever it may be.

Not keen on a charge. at the moment to go over to wales to play at cwmcarn cost me approx £15fuel £10.90 for the bridge (I've got a tiny van an still pay more than a transit with 6 seats but thats another issue)and usually get food at the cafe, say a £5ver.

Thats £30 each trip before i've even bought a bike.

Is timber not the purpose for most of this forest?

The FC has a threefold remit: timber, ecology and encouraging public use of the land. Providing trails encourages people to take exercise in the great outdoors.

I'm sure I read somewhere that the company building the new trails at Haldon quoted £21.60 per metre for the design/construction, not clear on what that included (FC might have to clear/fell trees etc)

At a volunteer trailbuilding session several years ago Pete Laing said that the original red route at Glentress cost about £5/metre whereas newer 7Stanes trails were nearer £15-20/metre. He reckoned that the increased cost was well worth it in terms of building trails that would last for longer and need less maintenance over their lives.

… get out there and enjoy it and don't let some marketing / franchising ****t charge you for what they should have no right to extort money for

Actually, Northwind answered this one brilliantly. You may demand a right to access the land but purpose-built trails don't magically appear out of thin air, for free. If you want them to exist then the money has to come from somewhere.

As long as they actually used the money to maintain the trails, rather than counting on it as a revenue stream.

At the worst the money would go into the FC's general budget, used to pay for the multitude of things the FC needs to do. It's not like FC staff get to spend it on hookers and blackjack, you know! At least, if they do then they keep it very quiet.

5£ for a pizza that cost 50p at iceland ok too but are you people out of your effin mind what next a charge on the air you breeze.

The cafes are not usually run by the FC, they are independent businesses. They'll pay rent to the FC but it seems strange to object to paying for parking or trail access because you want a cake after your ride and you don't want to have to travel to get it.

IIRC though the FC can't charge for access to the land, which is one reason why they charge for parking your car on it instead. Personally, I'd be OK with paying to ride at trail centres, provided the riding is good enough. I pay up to ride at Drumlanrig (£4 a trip), for example. If they all charged that rate it may encourage me to ride natural stuff a bit more, though. 🙂

As Chris says. I'd take a very dim view of being charged for access to the countryside in general. But going to a trail centre is similar to going to Alton Towers. The purpose-built and maintained element costs money, and it seems fair to be expected to contribute to those costs if you use the facility. 🙂

FC staff get to spend it on hookers and blackjack

Good quote [taken out of context] 😉

The debate about paying comes up a lot in the kayaking world but that's because to paddle 98% of English and Welsh whitewater rivers you have to trespass.

I will pay for services, but not for access. If someone is doing work to maintain the trails or provide a service like a carpark and roads then I will pay. I won't pay if the trails are just there.

No. I don't even like paying for parking at DaBly. Have been riding for nigh on 20 years & don't see why I should start paying now.

If it was ten quid to ride Llandegla,I'd happily never ride there again.The Peaks are closer and way,way more fun.

web_toed_marsdener touched on an interesting point. If a trail centre start's charging, do they suddenly become more liable if someone gets injured. You would have thought that there is a difference between something which is built but free to access and something that is built but costs money to use.

Taking a kids play ground as an analogy. I'm sure councils have some responsibilty to unsure that they're safe. But if they started charging parents directly to use them then surely the council would be legally (more) responsible for the childrens safety?

Perhaps this is another reason why car parking and honesty box's are the only way's used to generate money.

Just to clarify, where does the FC get it's money from at the moment?

mwleeds – Member

web_toed_marsdener touched on an interesting point. If a trail centre start's charging, do they suddenly become more liable if someone gets injured. You would have thought that there is a difference between something which is built but free to access and something that is built but costs money to use.

Taking a kids play ground as an analogy. I'm sure councils have some responsibilty to unsure that they're safe. But if they started charging parents directly to use them then surely the council would be legally (more) responsible for the childrens safety?

I don't see why either scenario should be the case. It's provision of a service, whether charged or not.

I think the question is actually: Should non-bikers subsidise the building of trail centres?

And I think the answer to that is yes for many reasons including
They create jobs
They promote health
They encourage tourism
They get people into the countryside
They are relatively cheap and extremely efficient
Many other sports, arts, leisure and cultural infrastructures get subsidies too.

So I guess that I'm a no, although I do think paying for parking is different. And I do think it is almost an obligation to get involved in volunteer trail-building if possible.

Dr Dolittle – Member

Just to clarify, where does the FC get it's money from at the moment?

I believe it's about 50:50 from the Govt (taxation) and from other generated income (i.e. mostly timber operations). Leisure "charges" would account for less than 10% of the total

The new development at Gisburn has cost approx £180k, this is from donations and funding (lottery, NW Development), all organised by one enthusiastic FC employee. There is no extra money in the pot for maintenance, the FC forester will be optimistically counting on users to turn up and volunteer to repair the trails they use. Which, of course, few of you will do. So, in the future, they will have to charge for the upkeep of the trails. There is no pot of gold being made or available.
The same will apply to most other trail centres.
At Stainburn, there never has been any money available, apart from bits and pieces of donations, pretty much everything has been hand built by volunteers over 8 years of hard graft by a small number of people.

i wonder how many people would bother to volenteer to do spade work if the trails became commercial ventures? perhaps the £20 a meter figure would increase???

"i wonder how many people would bother to volenteer to do spade work if the trails became commercial ventures? perhaps the £20 a meter figure would increase???"

I wouldn't. But then, if Glentress was taking in a quarter of a million pounds a year from visitors, they'd have a bit less need for volunteers. I suspect it'd be a net gain, I'd probably go off and dig holes somewhere else and they could pay someone to do the same job we used to.

The trouble is when you have restricted access you get overuse of the trails which leads to more maintenance being required, which leads to "purpose-built" trails, which leads to "trail-building", which leads to fees, which leads to commercial interests taking precedence, which leads to expensive playgrounds for enthusiasts, and then they "need" specialty bikes with big suspension, and suddenly it's not mountainbiking at all.

Freedom is not something you pay for with money, and if you're restricted to riding round in circles then you don't have freedom.

Like many of the above, I'd be willing to pay a few quid. The real momey is that which we, as riders put into the local economy.

Need a campsite / B&B / hotel? Look at the number of threads on here asking just this question.

Follow this with restaraunts, cafes, pubs and LBS's and there's a fair whack of cash being spent.

Trail centres are good business.

What exactly is wrong with the current model? What is the need for improved income? What's wrong with more volunteers?

The trouble is when you have restricted access you get overuse of the trails which leads to more maintenance being required, which leads to "purpose-built" trails, which leads to "trail-building", which leads to fees, which leads to commercial interests taking precedence.

The last thing it needs is interest from people outside the mtb world taking a slice. Increased fees mean increased margin.

i currently pay £45 for the season ticket into dalby forest ( instead of the £7 per car entrance fee )and as i can ride there at least twice a week i think this is a fair price, but i wouldnt want to pay for the car park or to ride the trails on top of the forest entry fee !!
As long as there is only one fee per year i will keep going to dalby.. i have plenty of time but not plenty of money as i am on carers allowance (just over the massive sum of £50 per week for 24hr care )looking after my disabled wife.
Once i have paid for my season ticket i know i can ride when i want and not just when i have some money in the bank.. if we paid for the trails as well as the entry fee i may have an entry ticket into the forest but find i have no money for the trails.. not good.
I have ridden in dalby for over 20 years and can remember when we found our own trails (still a good route but not as clean to ride)and the fee into the forest was free… so as time has gone on i do pay more for my riding…
so i think enough is enough !!

If they all charged that rate it may encourage me to ride natural stuff a bit more, though.

That pretty much sums it up…for those who have been MTBing for a very long time i.e. before the birth of trail centres, this idea of paying is going to sound very strange – mainly due to the fact that before trail centres, we still rode our bikes, but we rode whatever was in front of our wheel – irrespective of weather or conditions. Along comes the trail centre and there is an influx of new bikers – to them, natural riding seems very strange and not appealling (why would it be when you can turn up somewhere and have some great trails laid out for you without needing to follow a map?) – to them, the idea of paying is probably more acceptable as the trail centre has been built for them (and others) to use. The natural stuff involves a lot more linking up of routes and does mean that some rides aren't as good as others due to trail conditions.

It's down to how you view a trail centre – I don't use them much at all as I much prefer natural riding – but I can see that trail centres are a great facility and also a very good means of getting more people into the sport – nothing wrong with that – but it's not my cup of tea – I'll ride them a few times a year but it isn't my first choice.

I'd grudgingly pay but would want to see all evidence of where the money is going – I've been involved in a trail centre so I'm well aware of the costings involved and also the need to generate income to maintain the trails – but as I don't use them much myself I'm from the old-skool and don't see the need to pay to ride (even though I'm aware of the need for funds).

I'm guessing that the reactions and responses here can be pretty clearly split between those that prefer trail centres to those that prefer natural riding? The natural riders don't want to pay and the trail centre riders are more willing to pay.

Thanks so far for this interesting debate. Seems things are settling down to us willing to pay a minor fee for the up keep of trails. That said I'm sure we really don't want this to happen… I still feel there is something to be said about the forests being sold off to the private sector initillay…? ie back to my original post.

I'd prefer to do volunteer time and get my hands dirty – gives a greater sense of ownership and being part of the bigger picture…also makes me feel better about putting something back rather than putting my hand in my pocket…volunteer time can be charged at £15/hour (or it was a few years back) so spending a morning or day helping repair is going to be more cost effective than handing over a fiver or tenner…

I started MTBing before trail centres too, and round my way, it was shit.
When I got back into it I was like a kid in a candy store at these places. So much more fun per mile, no walkers, one way trails…fantastic.

If you have the peaks, lakes on your door then great, good for you. Personally I'm happy to contribute a fair price to keep these places well maintained and investing in keeping it fresh and exciting. If that can be covered by parking then great. If it needs a little more, then I'd pay a little more. Only done a little bit of trail building/repair and I see how much hard work it is. But it's certainly quicker than waiting for geological forces, which as far as I know are slow to craete wall rides and swoopy berm-filled singletrack

good post Dick Barton- but my opinion tends the other way- I spend most of the year riding natural, so on the few occasions I ride manmade stuff I don't mind paying for the work that's gone into building and maintaining them.

If I rode centres every week I'd probably be crying out for a season pass mind you…

no.

On top of the petrol, accommodation, food etc.. it would just be too much. i'd definitely stop going.

I wouldn't mind paying a few quid for trail centre use.
What I would object to is the situation at Thetford where it costs you around £5 to use the toll road to get to High Lodge, which is why I haven't used it for a few yrs now.
It would be OK if you could see the trails improving, but there are a variety of activities going on there & even though there is a bike hire place, the trails seem to get little upkeep – although TIMBER do what they can.

I think that whoever makes the decisions at Thetford want to make it a more family venue so that people stick to riding in clusters on fire roads & making the 'mountain biking' side of things wither away.

I don't agree with the comments at all of 'it's our right to ride on them so why pay'. Sure if it's not at a 'trail centre' then that is fair enough. But to turn up at a dedicated trail centre where the route you are riding has had to be designed, built & maintained and then not consider paying to use it is shortsighted.

I wouldn't pay, but that's largely down to not really wanting to go to the places in the first place.
If there was a nice all weather trail with showers and a bar on my doorstep, that would be a different matter though 🙂

I am particularly optimistic this kind of thread does not attract either the majority of the riding public or reflect their opinions or expectations. I would guess less than 5 of you have any real idea about the dynamics of forest management , long term policy or the economics for building, running and maintaining trails and live in cosseted urban environments selling plumbing piping or running the printing press. Now I have probably insulted 3/4 of you, I feel more able than most to comment as somebody heavily involved in current development for mountain biking in Wales and was involved in the development of Coed y Brenin and have some responsibility for the original employment of Dafydd Davis.

Many of the North Wales forests timber is suited for little in the way of must curerent high value timber demand. The Wood for Coed Llandegla centre was imported from North America not from the forest. Mostly the production was programmed over the last 20 years to go for paper pulp at UPM Shotton. Now Shotton is predominantly run from recycled paper the timber market has become further depressed. In order to offset the short falls in management costs which could only be levied against the tax payer if income cannot cover it has to be raised else where.

The Forestry Commission was able to take funds as an investment match them against grant funding available for depressed rural economies from Europe and the Government to develop facilities that would attract an alternative revenue both freeing it from dependancy on timber sales and hopefully creating a new revenue stream possibly great enough to further reduce dependancy on the tax payer.

Irrespective of your own likes or beliefs you ride forestry land on the terms of the Forestry Commission, they are not like Scandanavia where they are open at all times to the public or Pays Vasco where they belong to the community they are set in. If you want something free to ride in a manner of independance of permission there are bridleways and byways.

I was at a meeting discussing the spending of £32 million of european money for sustainable adventure tourism in Wales on wednesday which those bidding will need to bring forward 50% of their own money so if we want 4 million to upgrade and improve bike trails they will give us 2. However there are caveats mostly being that euurope require that to have the money we need produce real permanent jobs and income.

Reading this thread simply confirms the view that most had there that the niche end represented on this post has little if no value in any business model and there is a definite enthusiastic user base that will fit in with the models for income generation and until you start to realise trail centres or forests have never been a free meal you will simply get more Llandegla's and green routes because the evidence is overwhelming that they pay their way hard core gnarly dude compatible black routes dont they just attract a niche who are mostly negative critical and cynical and nothing in this thread has done anything to disabuse me of that even the limited number of voices supporting the fee paying model.

I am of course double lucky in knowing and using most of the free natural stuff I dont need any trail centres and if they all closed tomorrow i would not be unhappy other than for the opportunity lost to bring new people into the sport and ensure other people of the uk have a chance to experience the positive benefits of mountain biking in the uk so when more public money becomes available they support its spending on more mtb facilities and not demanding leisure centres and bowling greens. The next big dilemma for the nation providing leisure facilities is going to be for the greatly increasing numbers of aged people who simply cant do activity tourism…. this money will not be here for us for ever.

I think because of the level of ignorance threads like this generate it is time the mtb mags did proper features on the issues of trail development and sustainable tourism policies which appear as important that riders understand as much as being able to know how to choose your next £500 wheel set. If you were properly informed about this issue you could make better informed decisions about if it is right to pay or not and also how to effectively identify and use your economic potential to argue that your niche would like to have some benefit from the end of the current regime of trail centre development which is rapidly approaching us.

Everytime I visit Glentress I 'pay'; I use the cafe (always) and often buy something in the hub.

The letter OP you refer to was the lack of people paying to use penmachno. Their ticker counter recorded alot more riders than payers. I think that is very rude- riding something for free when there is a polite request and implied that it helps maintain.

Riders of Penmachno arent Llandegla 'riders for a day from Liverpool types' but committed riders. So why?