Would You…? [helmet nazi content]

TandemJeremy – Member
In all seriousness I think what we really need is more and better quality research both experimental and statistical analysis and a fresh look at helmet design in the light of modern knowledge.

really the knowledge base on this is not good enough

You prefer your prejudices and instincts to real data. Up to you but don’t expect anyone to think its a sensible viewpoint. I am not closed minded – I look at the data and make my mind up.

Until we have robust and specific data isn’t relying on your own judgement and instinct the best option ?

looking at the data would help. Not all of the data is poor – the data on relative risk is robust. The data on the efficacy of helmets is not robust.

For people to say its a dangerous pastime when the data clearly shows it is not is simply wrong

TandemJeremy – Member
For people to say its a dangerous pastime when the data clearly shows it is not is simply wrong

I prefer the thought process that says “mtb riding is a pastime with potential dangers, some situations will be significantly more dangerous than others, as I cannot accurately predict when one of these more dangerous situations may occur I wear a helmet all the time”

there’s also ‘sods law’ to consider, which means the one time I’ll be sure to headtwat myself my helmet will be hung up at home mocking me 😉

hilldodger – Member

there’s also ‘sods law’ to consider, which means the one time I’ll be sure to headtwat myself my helmet will be hung up at home mocking me

Aye… Not owning a helmet is clearly safer than owning one and not wearing it 😉

Molgrips. Its safe – very safe indeed

How do people get knocked off then?

And I don’t believe your data is unbiased or rigorous, so I don’t believe it. You don’t seem to understand how figures don’t necessarily tell the whole story. I don’t have a closed mind, I have an analytical one.

For people to say its a dangerous pastime when the data clearly shows it is not is simply wrong

I am not saying it’s dangerous (I wouldn’t do it if it was), I am saying that there are risks that can be easily mitigated. It’s as simple as that.

molgrips
The sheer numbers of people who report being knocked off their bikes by cars on here tells you that there is a not insignificant risk.

to me a risk of millions to one of death from head injury is insignificant. Cycling is safe, the risks are small.

they are not my figures molgrips =- the figures on relative risk are robust and valid and beyond serious question by anyone who actually understands risk. Go look at the sources.

“I am saying that there are risks that can be easily mitigated. It’s as simple as that. “

Then why don’t you wear your helmet to get out of the shower, or cross the road? These carry risks that can be easily mitigated. It’s as simple as that.

Indeed. Bexz.

Hilldodger -I prefer the thought process that says “mtb riding is a pastime with potential dangers, some situations will be significantly more dangerous than others, as I cannot accurately predict when one of these more dangerous situations may occur I wear a helmet all the time”

Really? I can easily predict where the risks are higher and where they are lower. But then I understand risk assessment.

high risk – note the rock gardens, the huge drops, all the trees waiting to pounce
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05 Glen Dochart[/url] by TandemJeremy[/url], on Flickr

Low risk 🙂
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tandem jump[/url] by TandemJeremy[/url], on Flickr

I am saying that there are risks that can be easily mitigated. It’s as simple as that.

As far as I’m aware, people still die wearing helmets, so that doesn’t mitigate the risk. Are you suggesting we don’t cycle? That’s the only way to mitigate the risk associated with cycling.

Personal experience makes me wear a lid, but would I tell someone else to wear one? Not likely, none of my damned business. I would, and indeed do, tell other cyclist to put a frackkin’ light on! The last time a couple of weeks ago turning onto a narrow country road I found three kids on BMX bikes riding abreast across the road, all in dark clothing, and not a single light between them. Retards.
My own experience coming off my bike has had me hitting my head on the ground pretty hard on a couple of occasions, once making my ears ring, and leaving me with a shoulder injury for a year, the last time at walking speed on a damp shared-use path, when both wheels went sideways on me. I smashed my left knee hard on the Tarmac, and grazed my left cheek pretty deeply, and the peak of my Xen was heavily scored. Without the lid I’m pretty damn sure I would, at the very least, have had a nasty scalp wound. My lid has also taken any number of heavy hits from low tree branches too. Wearing a lid is a personal choice, and generally affects the person concerned, whereas riding without lights could easily affect other people through a rider causing an accident with one or more other vehicles.

fourbanger – Member

As far as I’m aware, people still die wearing helmets, so that doesn’t mitigate the risk. Are you suggesting we don’t cycle? That’s the only way to mitigate the risk associated with cycling.

I’m trying to put this in the least cock-like way, but, mitigate doesn’t mean what you obviously think it means. Lessen, not eliminate.

TandemJeremy – Member
But then I understand risk assessment.

see, now you’re going down the “dismiss the poster’s intelligence/experience” route again, and so civil discussion once more descends into snidery 🙄

Hilldodger – not at all. However to say that

as I cannot accurately predict when one of these more dangerous situations may occur

shows that you do not understand risk assessemnt

Its odd to say that as its very easy to decide when risks are higher or lower. Some sorts of cycling carry significantly more risk than others.

do you wear body armour ever? or do you have the same protection on at all times?

Do you think a downhill racer has the same level of risk as a person pootling around the fells?
Do you think skill and experience make a difference to your risk?

We should be clear about the difference between (a) assessing the risk of a given situation and (b) predicting the occurrence of an event.

they are not my figures molgrips =- the figures on relative risk are robust and valid and beyond serious question by anyone who actually understands risk. Go look at the sources.

I would suggest that anyone who understands risk would appreciate that no figures are robust or particularly valid.
Here’s a good starting point for finding out why.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1857280687

For details of the author
http://www.john-adams.co.uk/about/

But yep, as a generalisation, I’d certainly agree the cycling is on the whole is safer than many people think.

Ian – yes people modify their behaviour in line with perceived risk – however you can still have very robust historical figures as this is what has actually happened. 130 odd cyclists killed in however many miles it was. Is robust as it is something that can be counted

TJ, read the book.

TandemJeremy – Member
shows that you do not understand risk assessemnt

……but I can spell it 😉

Assessing the risk is not the same as being able to predict when the situation will arise, which is what I was saying.

Then why don’t you wear your helmet to get out of the shower, or cross the road? These carry risks that can be easily mitigated. It’s as simple as that

I can’t believe I’m having to spell this stuff out (actually yes I am, you are being deliberately obtuse to try and win an argument – well it’s not going to work, I’m much more intelligent than that) but the choice of helmet or not (or any other safety equippment) is about risk versus inconvenience.

Wearing a helmet whilst cycling is not particularly inconvenient for me, wearing one around the house is.

As for statistics – I’m not a statistic. There are no stats for the risk of head injury for ME doing MY riding vs ME getting out of MY shower.

Do the stats of shower injuries state how many of the injured are weak old people and how many are fit young (ish) people?

I don’t put my foot on the edge of the bath if I use the downstairs shower mind. Why? Risk of slipping.

As for body armour – I can break, smash and even lose limbs, and it’d still be nowhere near as bad as losing parts of my brain. It being the most precious thing, I’m more inclined to protect it. I’m considering some armour though for certain riding.

Wearing a helmet whilst cycling is not particularly inconvenient for me, wearing one around the house is.

Why? Do you find the helmet more comfortable when cycling, or is it less convenient to have one available for when you’re going around the house (or crossing the road)?

“I don’t put my foot on the edge of the bath if I use the downstairs shower mind. Why? Risk of slipping.“

So you’re saying that you prefer not to wear a helmet, but instead to moderate your behaviour in such a way as to not require a helmet in the first place.

You prefer not to mitigate the consequences of a negative outcome but instead choose to actively reduce the likelihood of a negative outcome.

Interesting 😉

Of course “risk compensation” means that if molgrips did start wearing a helmet in the shower, he’d soon find himself balancing on the edge of the bath, with soapy feet, juggling bottles of shampoo and a hairdryer.

I once wore socks in the bath. Is that risky?

I correct children and their parents if they are fitted badly or on back to front. But I don’t go around preaching either case.

Use of bicycle lights and vehicle Fog lights however…

GrahamS – Member

Of course “risk compensation” means that if molgrips did start wearing a helmet in the shower, he’d soon find himself balancing on the edge of the bath, with soapy feet, juggling bottles of shampoo and a hairdryer.

Tee hee

Ever seen a cyclist get taken out by a car?

Define “taken out”. I’ve seen cyclists get bumped by cars, I know people who’ve been doored, I’ve been over the bonnet of one myself. I’m not sure what relevance my personal experiences have, though 🙂

If you get smashed by an artic, then sure. What if you get knocked off by a car doing 20mph? The physics suggests that you’ll hit the ground hard and your head might well smack into the ground despite your best efforts. Hard, and fast.

Might. Might not. If it’s a glancing blow I might bail and hit the ground running. Or I might roll over the bonnet/roof and land in a heap the other side. Or I might indeed pile headfirst into the Tarmac without managing to get my arms there first. If it’s hard and fast enough it might envegetabilise me anyway. Who can say? I wear a helmet anyway, because like you say, they’re not that inconvenient and they might possibly help. I wouldn’t presume to tell everyone they must wear one, though. Although obviously I’m a raging hypocrite so my kids have to 😉

Although obviously I’m a raging hypocrite so my kids have to

I’ve got my son so brainwashed I had to work really hard to persuade him it was OK to ride home from school without a helmet today – he rode in this morning without one on and nobody noticed, including him (I realised when I got home, but then forgot to take it in later). I didn’t like to use the fact I wasn’t wearing one on the uni as an argument, as I reckoned that would get me into all sorts of issues later (though like everybody else he’s not commented on the fact I’m not wearing one).

I only lid up when I’m going on my Sunday morning ride. I don’t really use my bike at any other time. If I was commuting I’d wear it though. However for a Pootle in the park I wouldn’t bother. Low speed and no rocks. Depends where you ride I guess, it’s rocky oop norf!

well I didn’t expect it to run to 4 pages but there is some very interesting stuff being posted.

My better half ordered me a new helmet last night for Christmas… still of the pisspot variety but this one has lots of lovely vents.

So its decided then… most people would just mind their own business.

All helmet posts must run to at least four pages. FACT.

At least this one was relatively civil. Well done all. 😀