Viewing 32 posts - 41 through 72 (of 72 total)
  • worrying times indeed
  • fervouredimage
    Free Member

    Actually scratch that. WE have the key, because we have the ballot papers. And half of us are too stupid or greedy to realise what we can do.

    I agree entirely with your sentiments but I’d appreciate a little bit more advice on what I should do with my ballot paper to instigate the change.

    binners
    Full Member

    Actually scratch that. WE have the key, because we have the ballot papers. And half of us are too stupid or greedy to realise what we can do.

    Which is?
    You may be overlooking the poor quality of the alternatives.
    FTR, I agree with much of what you’ve said, but the options aren’t as clear cut as portrayed.

    For a start they could deliver what Dave promised with his Big Society wheeze. Remember that? Charities and Not-for-profit organisations were supposed to be integral to providing services. A lot of which they were already providing, with local council funding (now all slashed of course).

    But it was a scam. A fig leaf that sounded better than ‘we’re going to hand over the whole public sector to our friends profit-hungry multinationals’. Which was always the intention. It couldn’t possibly have been done with more premeditated cynicism

    All the bidding processes have been well and truly rigged, so there’s not a chance that any of these new private contracts will go to anyone other than the usual suspects. A consequence of this, thats not getting spoken of as much, is that the charitable sector is being sacrificed at the alter of privatisation too. Its small organisations so far, but you can bet your arse that some big established charities are going to fold soon, as the funding for the services they provide is cut to the bone. To be replaced by profit-making organisations.

    Its the monetisation of everything! And its a disgrace that this is happening in a supposedly civilised society. And its being done very stealthily but very deliberately

    wrecker
    Free Member

    I think you’ve misread my query binners.

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    binners
    Full Member

    Indeed. Sorry. 😳

    I was returning a bit to the original post, and seem to go off on one. My missus works in the charity sector, and it absolutely infuriates me whats going on at the moment. Its scandalous, its intentional, and its cruel

    wrecker
    Free Member

    No worries.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    I agree entirely with your sentiments but I’d appreciate a little bit more advice on what I should do with my ballot paper to instigate the change.

    Vote left.

    Milliband & co might be rubbish, but at least they (or some of their party) are slightly more left leaning rubbish. And your local labour MP might different.

    Don’t forget that you are not just voting for a govt, you are voting for an MP too.

    wrecker
    Free Member

    I won’t be voting labour I’m afraid. Just can’t do it.
    My local MP is a tory, and I must give credit where it’s due; he’s a pretty good one. Trouble is, I do not agree with privatisation of services like health, police, prisons, education etc which is a tory must-have. The attempted forestry sell of was a biggie for me too.
    But I still won’t be voting labour, particularly with red ed in the seat.
    Doesn’t seem to be any middle ground for voters like me.

    mavisto
    Free Member

    Oh we do have a say. We just are just too stupid to use it properly. Every election time there are surveys asking people what they believe in, and most of us support left wing policies, by a big margin.

    Why do most people support left wing policies? Given the wonderful self serving nature of the average British man or woman in the street, I bet it’s not because of some altruistic well meaning, but because they think they will get something for nothing.

    Can I ask you a question? Where do you think this country would be if it wasn’t for Capitalism? We wouldn’t have had an industrial revolution, no industry, no railways. We needed people with vision and dare I say capital behind them to drive us foreward.

    I was incredibly sad to see the end of so many nationalised industries, but what was the alternative. They were badly run, by people who didn’t care. Unions had too much power and they were bringing the country and these industries to their knees.

    I’m all for looking after the less well off in our society, but not at the expense of bringing the down the country as a result.

    Don’t forget in the late 1960’s income tax ran at 98% for top earners. That’s right 98%. No wonder loads of people emigrated.

    I hope that voting is made compulsory, but we must have the option of ‘none of the above’.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Given the wonderful self serving nature of the average British man or woman in the street, I bet it’s not because of some altruistic well meaning, but because they think they will get something for nothing.

    Yes. Most people believe that the workers should get a better deal because they are workers themselves. And they have a point. I’m not advocating 70s style union belligerence but so many workers get such a crap deal it has a negative impact on the quality of life of a large section of the population *that needn’t happen*

    Can I ask you a question? Where do you think this country would be if it wasn’t for Capitalism?

    I think capitalism is vital. But it should be restricted to those areas where it really works and is needed. Healthcare, transport, utilities I don’t think come into that category. They are basic needs, not some business to be pissed up the wall.

    Yes, the nationalised industries were badly run, but so what? Run them better, no need to abolish the idea.

    There are shitloads of badly run businesses, I don’t see a movement to nationalise them. Stuff was privatised on ideological grounds, not practical ones, and it is that ideology with which I have a problem.

    richmtb
    Full Member

    Given the wonderful self serving nature of the average British man or woman in the street, I bet it’s not because of some altruistic well meaning, but because they think they will get something for nothing.

    I would hope its because most people genuinely believe that societies shouldn’t be set up just to benefit the privileged. That a civilized society should care for the vulnerable and work to improve the living standards of everyone.

    binners
    Full Member

    Given the wonderful self serving nature of the average British man or woman in the street, I bet it’s not because of some altruistic well meaning, but because they think they will get something for nothing.

    I think you’re confusing reasonable, decent people who possess a level of humanity, with Tory’s. I don’t know how. There’s little similarity

    Where do you think this country would be if it wasn’t for Capitalism?

    I don’t think there’s a realistic alternative, but its what nature of capitalism. If its full blooded with no regulation then we end up with the banking crisis. So in the end, it needs regulation to save it from itself.

    And it is not an answer to everything. In some areas, it simply has no place. And its those areas its venturing into now. Health, education, policing. Which is why a lot of people are very against it. A majority I’d say

    mavisto
    Free Member

    Yes. Most people believe that the workers should get a better deal because they are workers themselves. And they have a point. I’m not advocating 70s style union belligerence but so many workers get such a crap deal it has a negative impact on the quality of life of a large section of the population *that needn’t happen*

    You are right it doesn’t need to be like that and although I’m not on minimum wage, taking into consideration my age, experience and education it certainly feels like it.

    But how do we take this forward. The so called political elite are only in it for what they can get, no matter what colour rosette they wear.

    We need proper grown up thinking for the 21st Century problems we are now facing. It’s no use going on about what the Tories are doing or what Labour are doing.

    We need someone who can actually take this country forward. But because of this stupid political systeme we have, it will never happen. We sit on a see saw of political incompetance swaying from one disaster to another, each blaming the last party in power.

    Where is V when you need him?

    mavisto
    Free Member

    I think you’re confusing reasonable, decent people who possess a level of humanity, with Tory’s. I don’t know how. There’s little similarity

    I expected a response like that from you, you moron.

    binners
    Full Member

    Ooooooooooooooo. Get her!

    Well done on your typical right-winger level of debate though

    We need someone who can actually take this country forward.

    Let me guess. I think I know this one. Is it ‘less regulation’?

    footflaps
    Full Member

    I think you’re confusing reasonable, decent people who possess a level of humanity, with Tory’s. I don’t know how. There’s little similarity

    +1

    I’m all for looking after the less well off in our society, but not at the expense of bringing the down the country as a result.

    Whereas the Tories are completely set on screwing the less well off even if it does bring does the country as a result. Or rather, the easiest way to screw the poor is to screw the economy as the poor have less buffer to fall back on, so suffer most.

    yunki
    Free Member

    We need proper grown up thinking

    I expected a response like that from you, you moron.

    wrecker
    Free Member

    I don’t think there’s a realistic alternative, but its what nature of capitalism. If its full blooded with no regulation then we end up with the banking crisis. So in the end, it needs regulation to save it from itself.

    I agree completely with this. Trouble is, no political parties do.
    Labour just want to spend as much as possible and tax us to the hilt. The Tories just want everything to be privatised, and nobody regulated anywhere.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    crosses fingers insults wins arguments

    Where do you think this country would be if it wasn’t for Capitalism?

    Where do you think we would be if we had not spend centuries regulating it, organising workers and fighting to get the vote etc- Dark santic mines? Child labour? or somwhere even worse than that – its not exactly universally good now is it hence why we have enough money and enough food yet millions die every year due to capitalism and the way it divides resources

    mavisto
    Free Member

    You started it!

    Anyone who doesn’t see through ‘red’ rose tinted spectacles has to be a Tory. I AM NOT A TORY. You are blind to anyones opionion other than your own.

    I don’t follow ANY political party. I don’t trust any of them, they are all scum.

    Groucho Marx once said he didn’t want to be a member of a club that would have him as a member of their club.

    A similar principal should apply to politicians. Anyone who wants to be one, shouldn’t be allowed.

    binners
    Full Member

    I agree that to be branded a Tory is considerably worse than labelled a moron. My apologies 😆

    piemonster
    Full Member

    I think you’re confusing reasonable, decent people who possess a level of humanity, with Tory’s. I don’t know how. There’s little similarity

    Plus another one. Whenever I see a Tory, I think “maybe David Icke is right about the lizards”

    mavisto
    Free Member

    Where do you think we would be if we had not spend centuries regulating it, organising workers and fighting to get the vote etc- Dark santic mines? Child labour? or somwhere even worse than that – its not exactly universally good now is it hence why we have enough money and enough food yet millions die every year due to capitalism and the way it divides resources

    And millions don’t die as a result of so called socialist states?

    Did I say it was wrong to regulate it? This what I mean, we need an alternative.

    I want a health service that works, a proper postal service, a gas and electricity supplier that isn’t going to rip us off, a national rail network that serves the whole country. But what we don’t need are over bloated councils, nationally funded steel works and car industries.

    We need a proper balanced economy that works for a Britian in the 21st Century, not one based on the 19th Century.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    But how do we take this forward.

    I dunno, how about we ban political parties? Then you’d have a range of candidates in every constituency, and the left wing ones would be able to make their case and win votes without the baggage of crap party leaders.

    yunki
    Free Member

    I think you’re confusing reasonable, decent people who possess a level of humanity, with Tory’s. I don’t know how. There’s little similarity

    Come the glorious people’s revolution, it will turn my stomach as a pacifist to see all those braying predatory bastards face the firing squad..
    But when it comes the time to dispatch all the wild-eyed drooling sycophantic peasants that supported them, I will be jostling my way to the front of the crowd to get a go on the trigger.. (metaphorically speaking of course.. 😀 )

    [/gnashing teeth]

    binners
    Full Member

    And millions don’t die as a result of so called socialist states?

    Dear lord! So thats what it is, is it? If you want to regulate the worst excesses of capitlism, then you’re a socialist? 🙄

    We need a proper balanced economy that works for a Britian in the 21st Century, not one based on the 19th Century.

    Unfortunately, what we have is a 21st century banking-based one that is already sewing the seeds of the next ‘bust’, by using government backed loan guarantees (which, ironically, is in itself a fairly socialist construct) not to lend to business, as intended, but to fuel property speculation in the South East. Aaaaaah the joys of unregulated capitalism. What could possibly go wrong?

    piemonster
    Full Member

    Can you be a socialist and a home owner at the same time?

    mavisto
    Free Member

    Unfortunately, what we have is a 21st century banking-based one that is already sewing the seeds of the next ‘bust’, by using government backed loan guarantees (which, ironically, is in itself a fairly socialist construct) not to lend to business, as intended, but to fuel property speculation in the South East. Aaaaaah the joys of unregulated capitalism. What could possibly go wrong?

    They are not actually lending to either buisiness or property speculators (aren’t they businesses anyway?). They are hanging onto it for dear life, which subsequently is depressing the already low interest rates. Why does a bank need depositors when it can get money from the government?

    BermBandit
    Free Member

    was incredibly sad to see the end of so many nationalised industries, but what was the alternative. They were badly run, by people who didn’t care. Unions had too much power and they were bringing the country and these industries to their knees.

    I’m all for looking after the less well off in our society, but not at the expense of bringing the down the country as a result.

    Hands up everyone who thinks the countrys doing better as the result of the de-unionisation, privatisation or in fact due to tory policies generally.

    PS: ….and where are all the apologists for Thatcher/Cameron who were so much in evidence pre the last election?

    fatboyslo
    Free Member

    Oh Dear 🙁

    Another of those ” It’s the other lot to blame ” type threads ….

    Once you get to a certain age you start to realise that cock ups like Stafford didn’t happen overnight, won’t be cured overnight and like it or not all parties at Westminster have to shoulder a portion of accountability for letting the NHS run down over DECADES not years.

    And it is not a simple case of saying Bad Management, No Money, Blame the Unions or what ever your placard of the week shouts out, I would suggest that the decline is due to a complex combination of these and other causes.

    Do I have the perfect answer ?

    NO !

    Is it all bad ?

    Again I would say NO ! most certainly not but it is possible to get totally different views depending on who you ask and their own experience.

    Leaving folks in corridors, hanging around in casualty for hours waiting for x rays, having to take a whole day off work for a hospital appointment are nothing new and I would suggest that if you think they are then you didn’t get to experience the NHS in the 70s when I was unfortunate enough to need to use it a lot 🙁

    molgrips
    Free Member

    like it or not all parties at Westminster have to shoulder a portion of accountability for letting the NHS run down over DECADES not years.

    Yes, but remember the government does things (usually) that it things will go down well with the electorate. So it’s our baying for lower taxes etc that mean we have to cut costs everywhere.

    BermBandit
    Free Member

    Fair one moley, I quite agree. Its always been a mystery to me how folk generally seem completely unable to relate government to their voting habits and government spending to the services they receive (and usually in the way that they have actually voted for them).

    Remember one persons “driving waste out of the system” is anothers grandparent dying from neglect after 9 days alone.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    It goes like this:

    My taxes are too high! Damn government stealing my money!
    But taxes go to pay for your services don’t they?
    No, they just go on duck houses for MPs!
    Public services are struggling for money as it is.
    It’s all wasted! Get those lazy sods to work!
    But firemen get paid peanuts to save our lives.
    They can go and do another job if they like!

    And so on. Very very stupid.

Viewing 32 posts - 41 through 72 (of 72 total)

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