Could that not also describe the Soviet Union, North Korea, China, and most other communist states;

Probably but I am not sure if the disparity is as high as we find in capitalism bit there you had political cronyism which is not really communism nor something I wish to defend anymore than capitalists want to defend Somalia/eritrea etc
It also describes them pre communism as well when they were capitalist. I am not sure what your point is here tbh as I dont think anyone here is actually arguing* we need to remove capitalism and replace it with communism. What they are arguing is that the current version is as I described and measures should be taken to make it fairer.
Its not an either or question.

* I am probably the least capitalistic on this thread to be fair.

I agree with some of the sentiments above too. There is nothing wrong with extreme wealth, its the living in a world with fellow humans struggling that’s just plain wrong. It should be distributed better, especially since wealth creation is simply down to luck and the circumstances one was born into…one of the ways our current system keeps going is everyone always point to communist countries as the ‘other way’. It doesn’t have to be like that – however, that way of thinking is kept in place by the powerful who are protecting their interests in neoliberalism…

There is nothing wrong with extreme wealth, its the living in a world with fellow humans struggling that’s just plain wrong. It should be distributed better, especially since wealth creation is simply down to luck and the circumstances one was born into

Actually wealth creation depends on work done by the general population and often not paid very well for it.
Apparently some 6 million workers in the UK are paid less than the living wage. That’s about 20% of the workforce, which strikes me as quite a high proportion for such a rich economy.

since wealth creation is simply down to luck and the circumstances one was born into

Damn, nobody told me that. Might as well go home and back to bed….

Well those of an anti capitalism stance can voice their opinion on Town tonight as theres a march through Parliament Sq and surrounding roads..

Don’t forget your face(less) masks will you. 🙄

Typical lefty. Disagree and you are either stupid or evil. The reality of capitalism is that along with the rule of law, property rights and science it has produced the wealth in western countries which allows them to have a welfare state which helps the poor.

Absolutely.

since wealth creation is simply down to luck and the circumstances one was born into

Total bollocks. In fact it’s far more down to luck and circumstances in a country with stronger controls on society and capitalism such as China, Saudi, North Korea, Russia, India, etc, etc. Patronage, nepotism and discrimination due to finances and class/caste is far greater than the UK because success is doled out by those in power, rather than people being able to create their own.

In a more capitalist society there is absolutely more opportunity for someone to fulfill their potential regardless of where they started. The fact that people don’t is up to them. I know, because I’ve taken advantage of this myself and never felt limited by my upbringing as to what I can be in life.

Hugo..in a capatalist society do you think all people in poverty are there because they have not tried hard enough?

since wealth creation is simply down to luck and the circumstances one was born into

George Soros seems to be doing alright for himself:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros#Early_life

Nifan, good example of my point about luck. Cheers… 😀

Which part do you think was down to luck?

Lucky people don’t win the lottery – only people who buy lottery tickets win the lottery.

Hugo..in a capatalist society do you think all people in poverty are there because they have not tried hard enough?

That sounds on a par with

wealth creation is simply down to luck and the circumstances one was born into

Both rather odd really

@nifan – how about…born a man in a patriarchal world, born in a considerably more affluent country compared to other parts of the world, his mother owned a thriving shop and his father a lawyer (they obviously weren’t poor)..reads like a pretty good starting position compared to millions of others. Sure, he worked very hard too, but his environmental circumstances contributed to his hard work to enable success…

In a more capitalist society there is absolutely more opportunity for someone to fulfill their potential regardless of where they started.

Everybody has equality of opportunity, but unfortunately its all about where you start these days, and the tools that are rapidly being denied to you which determines your outcome.

Everybody has equality of opportunity, but unfortunately its all about where you start these days,

How does that work?

@teamhurtmore – read the post above el-bent’s if you need it explaining – although I don’t believe you genuinely meant the question…

indeed THM its very disingenuous – in facts it just not true to suggest that wealth wont give you kids, in general, better outcomes s they will be privately educated etc. Its not a level playing field where the cream works its way to the top Everyone knows this even you.

n a more capitalist society there is absolutely more opportunity for someone to fulfill their potential regardless of where they started.

they dont that is a myth

How many PM’s went to eton how many went to a comprehensive?

Look how many millionaires there are in the cabinet

Look how the aristocracy do

there is very little movement either in or out of the elite

I have – I don’t understand it. Hence the question. We either have equality of opportunity or we don’t…

In terms of where you start – the biggest random element is your choice of parent – not sure how governments can influence that! But good parents exist across all parts of society

According to the papers today, state-educated pupils do better than independent ones at Uni, so well done to those disadvantaged independent school pupils who make still it 😉

what a shame they still get in disproportionately- especially Rusell group ones- therefore defeating your point.

We all know there are disproportionate opportunities form birth what we ask is the a govt tries it best to level the playing field so it is opportunity to all and not still disproportionately favouring the wealthy

@teamhurtmore… I don’t believe we do have equal opportunity in society… If so, why are there disproportionately high levels of young black males in prison? (Imo that is due to instatutionlised racism). Does sexism not exist? How about less abled individuals? Do they have equal opportunities compared to abled individuals? These disadvantages are all a result of our current social order which has been determined by the most powerful in society adhering to neo-liberalism.

Nor do I. But I do not agree with the causal links, nor with the myth that we don’t have social mobility and/or its declining. Neither are true – we have seen greater absolute mobility in the UK and stable to possibly rising relative mobility. But the truth doesn’t support the froth making….

[But El-bent starts by claiming that “everybody has equality of opportunity” before explain why that is not the case….]

‘Equality of opportunity’ is about having the opportunity to become unequal. It doesn’t address the issues tied up with inequality. So what if your factory boss ticks all the minority boxes? Would that make you less exploited?

The ideology of equality of opportunity is to justify the entitlement of the elites to their positions and disproportionate rewards.

Can I see your evidence to support your claims or else its just you saying something re social mobility that reality does not support

IMHO we do not have socialmobility in this countryhttps://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Social+mobility+in+the+uk&rlz=1CAASUD_enGB661GB661&oq=Social+mobility+in+the+uk&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.4721j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8

Feele free to check the results when we google

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11627719/Social-mobility-has-come-to-a-halt.html

Take the simple fact that top jobs are increasingly dominated by those from wealthy families. In our report last year, Elitist Britain, the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission, which I chair, examined the background of the 4,000 people with the most wealth, power and influence in our country. We found that the majority of our senior judges, military officers, Whitehall mandarins and senior diplomats had all been privately educated; in the population as a whole, just 7 per cent go to private school. Politics and journalism do little better. As one academic has noted, the top professions are “increasingly being filled by individuals that look less different to the average in terms of ability and more different to the average in terms of family income”. Sir John Major was right to warn that in every single sphere of British influence, the upper echelons of power are held overwhelmingly by a small elite.

If you wish to argue against this can I see the evidence as it just seems to be you putting your politics before the facts

http://www.neweconomics.org/blog/entry/inequality-in-the-uk-whatever-happened-to-social-mobility

ETtc

I found this recent BBC2 programme quite interesting, which I think relates well to the OP survey.
Don’t Panic – How to End Poverty in 15 Years
BBC Iplayer Poverty Another 5 days to watch.
I think many will be surprised by some of the basic stats regarding world poverty and how it has changed over a very short time frame.

How many PM’s went to eton how many went to a comprehensive?

Well there wasn’t a Eton educated PM between 1964 and 2010, during which time there were 4 from grammar schools, 2 from comps and Tony from Fettes public school. Oxford Uni has a far greater significance with only 3 PMs in the same period not attending.

A parents attitude to education has a massive impact on your future opportunities.

A parents attitude to education has a massive impact on your future opportunities.

Indeed – the most important factor. But you cannot bottle it.

[But El-bent starts by claiming that “everybody has equality of opportunity” before explain why that is not the case….]

Yes. Exactly.

JY feel free to personally contact Abramovich with your proposal for redistributing his wealth and let him know how much this bothers you. Elena Amborsiado’s purchase of the Falcon for $60m looks like a bargain too so how about pointing that out to him also.

Life isn’t “fair”, Steve Peat’s a far better rider bike rider than me and I’d wager his kids have a far better chance of being better bike riders than my kids. I never had the opportunity to be a s good as him as my dad wasn’t a trials rider and I have no talent.

Life isn’t “fair”, Steve Peat’s a far better rider bike rider than me and I’d wager his kids have a far better chance of being better bike riders than my kids.

Its not what you know, but who you know.

Its not what you know, but who you know.

Not really – it what you know AND who you know.

Why does anyone have an issue with the “who you know” bit anyway – that’s just basic common sense. Schools should build that into education – build personal networks, they are important. Bloody obvious…

Schools should build that into education – build personal networks, they are important. Bloody obvious…

True, but networking with the Old Etonians is more difficult if you went to Scunthorpe Secondary Modern.

They don’t mind if you call it Slough Grammar – bridges the gap quickly!

Eton is totally over rated anyway its the Westminster School lot you should be hanging out with, they go places.

Indeed – the most important factor. But you cannot bottle it.

OItys not its genetic you said so last education thread so it must be true….second most important factor

JY feel free to personally contact Abramovich with your proposal for redistributing his wealth and let him know how much this bothers you.

Once more nailing the central moral point of my piece and so warmly admitting that you were wrong over the value…thans Mr 100% 🙄
SHall I contact all the starving folk to say you dont care but you are happy he as a billion pound yacht or would you like to actually bother to mention the issue at all? explain why its ok he has this whilst children live of food from tips with no clean water and no sanitation?
Really this does not bother your moral compass one bit?

Life isn’t “fair”, Steve Peat’s a far better rider bike rider than me and I’d wager his kids have a far better chance of being better bike riders than my kids. I never had the opportunity to be a s good as him as my dad wasn’t a trials rider and I have no talent.

This is really basic stuff you are straw manning to death- I assume its because you have no actual answer to the real issue the issue is not who is the best rider the issue is did you all get an equal chance to ride bikes and to be your best? Except of course we mean eat food and not die from poverty. We are saying everyone should have an equal opportunity to achieve…..again do you really think this happens ? the child born in a council house really had the same chance as the child born of a millionaire – would you like to try and argue that its equal rather than just make fallacious arguments. I will assume not as its much harder to explain away that making childish points about Peaty

JY the survey is total nonsense. The poor in China, India and Asia are substantially better off under capitalism than the subsistence farming existence they had before. The “poor”, or strictly speaking the least well of 5 or 10%, in the UK are hugely better off than they where 100 years ago, or 50, or 25 or indeed IMO 10 years ago. World populations have increased massively due to capitalism and the standard of living of people in developed and developing countries has increased substantially. The rich today are substantially less well off in absolute and relative terms in regard to assets like property and lifestyle than they where before true capitalism emerged. The rich lived in castles with huge staffs whilst the poor lived in wattle and daub huts.

I see that the Daily Mail is on your list of approved sources, so that explains why we cannot agree on facts

Any view on Abramovich having a yacht and us having staring children living on tips without clean water and sewerage- you seem to keep replying to me and not mentioning this for some reason. WHY ?

The “poor”, or strictly speaking the least well of 5 or 10%,

I love a good tautology 😕

We cannot agree on facts because I check them and use them and you make them up and then claim you were not saying them when it’s pointed out that you just made them up or just ignore it when folk say you were wrong. Essentially the real problem for you is that no one agrees with your version of facts not even the facts [ what did you say it was worth again ?]hence you shoot the messenger rather than just admit your error then move on.

World populations have increased massively due to capitalism and the standard of living of people in developed and developing countries has increased substantially

I have to call you up on this.

You can’t attribute the rise in living standards in recent decades to capitalisim, just as you can’t blame it for the terrible working conditions of the industrial revolution.

Capitalism is an academic concept, how it’s applied makes all the difference.