- Working Mans Race Series-Warning Strava content
Look at it this way:
One relatively popular STW user proposes a friendly “Race” that isn’t really a race but everyone knows it’s a bit of a race.
All done in the spirit of camaraderie, community and sharing, this is met with pretty much universal support and acclaim.
There’s a bit of a question over how the definitions used for this event might affect it’s liability status/insurance but anyone who questions it is shouted down by the great and the good…
Another STW user proposes a friendly Race that isn’t really a race but everyone knows it’s a bit of a race really, all done in the spirit of Camaraderie, community and sharing, this is met with hostility and accusations of irresponsibility and stupidity on user’s persons part. the key differences really being, he’s not CTBM, he proposed using Strava (boo Hiss!) to time people on bikes (sort of it’s purpose)…
CTBM was pretty open in his SSUK thread about creative use of terminology to get around those pesky rules on the definition of a “race”. I don’t personally think He’s really doing anything wrong, his motives and those of this threads OP are actually not a million miles apart, and in the interest of the sport and MTBing community…
I wonder why STW is seen by some as a Den of Toss-Bandits by some…Posted 6 years agoirelanstMember
How about billing the events as a ‘featured segment of the month’? You wouldn’t be doing anything that isn’t already available in Strava, just bringing people’s attention to a nice trail.
Do a video if you like, a bit of a description and possibly suggest a route which takes in the segment or multiple segments to make it more ‘gravity enduro’. No mention of racing, no prizes and massive caveats about respecting other trail users, riding responsibly etc.
And if the KOM at the end of the month gets details of a nearby geocache which just happens to contain “something suitably “Northern” like a box of tea and some biscuits or possibly a trophy made from manly working stuff like bits of metal and old tools” then that would be lucky wouldn’t it.Posted 6 years ago
Thinking it through, concerns re the SSUK event are reasonable. It’s 2 months off yet, let’s see what happens.
(Off-road sportives with 1000 riders on rights of way? That volume of traffic on a bridleway effectively denies its peaceful use to other users. I can’t see that lasting).Posted 6 years agoscotroutesMember
aracer – Member
I don’t have a 6″ travel all mountain steed, but I do have GPX editing software – can I race?
It’ll be the two of us on the podium every month then?
Seriously though – it’s simply too easy to cheat with these things (intentionally or otherwise). It makes a mockery of the whole concept.Posted 6 years ago
I know this isn’t the sort of measured, nuanced debate you get on, say, Pinkbike, but if you could try and take in the following points.
SSUK(G) is an official event with insurance cover, organised by an easily traceable local business owner, not some random with an assumed internet name.
The course is 25 miles long, so you’re not going to get people going balls out the whole way.
99% of the entrants are going to be treating it as a hungover pootle, not a training exercise.
Prizes will be awarded on a completely random basis, such as prowess at dancing to rubbish glam rock, and the person who comes home first will be clapped and forgotten about rather than being feted as an INTERNET LEGEND.
Even with all this, I still don’t think unleashing 200 hungover mountain bikers in Dorset on a Bank Holiday weekend is a risk-free proposition, but I have more faith in that to pass off smoothly than countless little unregulated internet pissing contests, entered by the sort of people who throw a hissy fit when their segment along a shared-use pavement outside a nursing home is flagged as hazardous.Posted 6 years ago
countless little unregulated internet pissing contests, entered by the sort of people who throw a hissy fit when their segment along a shared-use pavement outside a nursing home is flagged as hazardous
rofl. and the wittiest people are definitely on the ‘nay’ side of the fence!Posted 6 years agoEcky-ThumpMember
Firstly, I applaud STW’s decision to let this debate run.
It prompts an interesting consideration around which “rules” an individual chooses to respect and which they don’t.
Are you happy to race your riding buddies down a track that happens to be catagorised as a BW?
Are you happy to ride uninsured?
Yes to all? OK, I’ll summarise that as “I’d be happy to take part, BUT…”
So, what’s the “BUT”?
I’m interpretting this as simply, …how would this be perceived if it was widely publicised, attracted unwanted attention from nay-sayers, gave them opportunity to voice their unshakable views?
Was it wise to publicise this as a race on an open internet forum? Not sure – Maybe not, but does it hurt to have someone do something that tests the boundaries of the debate occasionally? Definately not.
I can’t help but feel that we’re all expected to be seen to condemn this.Posted 6 years ago
You’re absolutely right of course Mr A, the OP by posting up a Strava route has, like some sort of cycling pied-piper, bated countless MTBers to certain death on a BW in the lakes…
Of course I don’t think anyone actually thought the OP of this thread was proposing an event on anything like the scale or seriousness of even SSUK…
He wanted people to have a go along his shared route and see how they got on, “Race”, “Sportive”, “time trial”, just “going for a ride” call it what you will, I don’t think it presents anything like the scale of risks you’re bleating about.
The point was pretty simple, if the internet jabberings of this threads OP:
At the end of the month the fastest mens and womans times will be rewarded with something suitably “Northern” like a box of tea and some biscuits…
Can be attributed as liability in some future “Death by Strava” court case, as you seem to contend, then CTBM is on shakey ground liability wise with…
there is a race, it is a race, we will be racing… But don’t tell anyone with a clip board
If then goes on to obtain insurance for something that isn’t a race…
So if one thread should be deleted, then so should the other IMO…
STW censorship rules being what they are I wouldn’t hold my breath though.
The reason you jumped all over the OP of this thread is clearly the mention of Strava. Which seems to get certain Mary’s in a proper H&S froth for some reason, because someone once cut a corner on their shitty trails and they decided that Strava made them do it by subliminal suggestion or something…
I’ve seen not actual constructive criticism directed towards the OP, no suggestions on how he could organize properly or perhaps scale back his proposal to avoid making himself liable for unintended injuries (clearly your prime concern).
No you you lot just felt the need to put the boot in to an essentially well meaning individual who wanted to take part and share in the MTBing community, because basically you’re a barrage of ****…
I await my ban ****…Posted 6 years agoasterixMember
sorry Ecky, but all that stuff about “what we are expected to be seen to do” is a load of waffle.
I do agree with you that debate about what’s OK and what isn’t OK is fine.
But there’s no need to be fuzzy about the issue in this case -it was not wise to publicly promote a race on a BW; it is illegal to do that.Posted 6 years ago
The reason you jumped all over the OP of this thread is clearly the mention of Strava
I think a number of people have explained their misgivings and they don’t revolve aroudn Strava, however convenient you find it as a vehicle for your ire.
Up until your last two sentences I was happy to discuss stuff but, really, is that the best you can do?Posted 6 years agoEcky-ThumpMember
But there’s no need to be fuzzy about the issue in this case -it was not wise to publicly promote a race on a BW; it is illegal to do that.
But there’s two issues in that single quote alone Asterix.
1. to promote
2. to race
That’s furtile fuzziness in which to grow a whole crop of waffle from me.
[Edit] make that 3 issues… “3. publicly” [/Edit]Posted 6 years agodrbob65Subscriber
Cumbriamonkey: go see a lawyer, pay him some money and get a retraction of all this proposal drafted and state it was a silly Idea, I don’t advocate this at all. Becuase when someone comes suing you, and they will, this entire exchange will be exhibit A. Seriously this poorly thought out and will end up costing you time and money. Next time you have a greta idea and want to put it out on social media, it might be worth getting advice first.Posted 6 years ago
Personally I think the “Barrage of ****” point is about the most concise descriptor for a group of STW users that I’ve read to date…
Lets be honest this “Debate” was never really going anywhere, try to make a reasoned point on here and your called names or miss-quoted, just thought I’d join the fun and try to earn an STW-ASBO so I could do some work… Ya great big ****-Chops!Posted 6 years agoedlongMember
The reason you jumped all over the OP of this thread is clearly the mention of Strava
As someone who seems to have done more than their fair share of the jumping (sorry about that) I can assure you that it has absolutely nowt to do with strava. In fact, I don’t even get why you think it is – looking back on the comments, apart from a few “isn’t that against strava T&Cs?” comments early on (and a few observations that it’s perhaps sub-optimal as a timing system for races), the objections don’t seem to have anything at all to do with strava, more the “promoting of illegal racing on bridleways” issue. Have you actually read the thread?
I don’t even get what this has to do with strava, any more than it has to do with what tyres the guy on the video was using, or what video camera he shot it on. Am I missing something?Posted 6 years agoasterixMember
Ecky – your last reply made me smile sir
[edit – actually the only point I made above was that it was unwise to publicly promote a race on a BW. It is, however, also unwise to promote a race on a BW. And it is also unwise to race on a BW]
this reminds me of the Wesley Crushers 🙂Posted 6 years ago
The main reason Strava threads attract earnest finger-wagging bores like myself is that until its invention, it was hard (if not impossible) to organise timed racing between people who didn’t know each other on open multi-user trails. Now it’s easy, but it encourages dickish riding, it makes mates’ races and cheeky trails findable on Google, and accuracy issues mean the results are worthless. Is that a good thing?Posted 6 years agoedlongMember
Ahh, okay, I think I get it now, the “strava is bad” thing.
No, I don’t get it, sorry. Like blaming the gun for a shooting, or the car for bad driving. You might as well blame the bike as the GPS tracking software. Surely it’s riders being nobs that’s issue, not their software?
Sorry, I’m still missing something, clearly. Don’t explain it to me, I’m happy to stay perplexed by this one.Posted 6 years agoBillOddieSubscriber
Having read the whole 3 pages of this…plus my own preconceptions/experience I have come to the following conclusions:
1) using strava for mates racing is probably just about OK assuming your mates are complete nobbers and will sacrifice their “strava run” when other trail users are about.
2) putting it on open social media/forums is f***** retarded.
3) The SSUK thing is probably not much better and asking for trouble if something goes wrong. Have a group ride then a little minirace on private land if you must. But calling it a reliability trial but then putting a comment on an open forum that is really a race is really daft.
For the record:Posted 6 years ago
Have I used strava? Yes
Do I quite like Strava? Sort of. I found myself competing against others and more to the point myself far too much and it took some of the joy out of my riding.
Do I think Strava is bad idea in general on BWs and cheeky trails? Yes. It’ll end in tears soon enough.CheezpleezSubscriber
It’s hard being a grown-up sometimes, innit
You know what, I have faith that CTBM will organise a responsible event and manage the risks for himself, the riders and other trail users sensibly and professionally, no matter what he has said online to reassure the SSUK crowd that it will still be worth attending.Posted 6 years ago
If the OP was my mate, I’d have said why bother.
There’s a shed load of racing if that’s what you want, and keep riding ‘just riding’.
I kind of admire the OPs enthusiasm though, even if in my opinion it is misguided.
On a personal note I think it makes a mockery of the hard work done by those organizing ‘proper’ events.Posted 6 years ago
And I always think this sort of competition to be a bit snide. It’s unequal, inaccurate, open to manipulation, but worse of all anyone doing poor times can just say they weren’t competing.
Just so you know, I do put a lot into the sport. One of the races we organised last year.
I think it’s a good idea, and if a segment appears near me I’ll give it a go.
Organised races cost a fortune for various reasons, and most people don’t give too much of a shit as they’ll never win, although they’d still like to see where on the scale they did finish.
Strava offers all this on your doorstep … for free!
I sometimes wonder if this forum is predominantly filled with lawyers and HSE employees.Posted 6 years ago
Strava offers all this on your doorstep … for free!
Using Strava isn’t the issue here at all.
How about instead of promoting illegal racing on BW’s, spend all that enthusiasm on getting access or building and/or maintaining legal trails?Posted 6 years ago
If the OP published segments around here, and people got wind of it, it could set us back over ten years work getting some trails that folk travel from all over to ride.
Would you be happy to destroy all that work for this?
oldgit – Member
I’d imagine they’d have a shed load of permisions/insurance in place.
Yep it’s on the BC site, so they’re taking a slice of the pie.
obviously they don’t cross the bridleway that runs through the site, BC are clear that no racing on or crossing Bridleways can happen for an MTB race my understanding is that you can’t even get a closure of a Bridleway
as they don’t comply with section 2.8 of this document http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/media/bc_files/road/Non-Comp_Event_guidelines.pdf
it must be a race surely not?Posted 6 years ago
How about instead of promoting illegal racing on BW’s, spend all that enthusiasm on getting access or building and/or maintaining legal trails?
one is “fun” and one is dull as dishwater and requires dealing with various stakeholder groups who will just maon at you 😉Posted 6 years agomikewsmithMember
Makes me glad I’m not in the UK anymore. Most of the recent races I have done have been on open trails with no closures at all. We are all asked to give way to others and not be ****s about it. We manage. There is strava based challenges on segments all over the world. Anywat I’m off to get my kom through the boeljng green back what tyres for mashing through pensioners?Posted 6 years agotaxi25Member
A great deal of this thread goes on about the op’s challenge being possibly illegal. Amore valid point would be wether it does any harm or not. well maybe it might techniclly be not quite legal but when racing bicycles became illegal on B/W nobody would have dreamed of a strava segment type event, it would have ben head to head racing with multiple contestants, maybe not such a good idea. Over a month people turning up at random and doing what they’ve always done, not what the law makers had in mind I’m sure. Maybe not on here but out in the wide world, most people don’t realy give a stuff about breaking some technical aspect of law if they feel no harm is being done by thier actions. I don’t think the op’s event will do that anymore than a lot of other riding. You’d probably be hard pushed to even notice anything was going on. Unlike big ” legal ” events with hundreds of competitors wich can seriously disrupt other peoples ability to enjoy a place as they see fit.Posted 6 years ago
Legal; riding along a BW with no ulterior motive and abiding by the ROW.
Cheeky; What a lot of us actually do anyway.
Illegal; Racing on a BW.
I might be over reacting, but if everyone took the OPs view places like Woburn would now be fenced off and bulldozed land, and not great trails and jumps as it is now.Posted 6 years ago
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