Women's tennis…. A bit meh?

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  • Women's tennis…. A bit meh?
  • Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Look at how spectacular the mens DH is

    I agree that some womens sports are much less spectacular to watch. But not many. And even in that case the racing can still be just as close and exciting.

    deadlydarcy
    Member

    Hilarious that male club hobbyists claim they’d take points off one of the top females in tennis. 😆 Yeah, I suppose the ladies might have the odd double fault. Plenty of Walter Mitty types around.

    breatheeasy
    Member

    What sports would be left if we banned ones that relied onspeed or strength? They’d be a lot of showjumping and darts on Sky Sports!

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Subscriber

    Is target shooting multi-gender?

    Edit:

    Men’s Shooting was one of the nine events at the first modern Olympic Games in Athens, in 1896. In the Paris Games in 1900, live pigeons were used as moving targets. After the 1900 games, the pigeons were replaced with clay targets. In 1907, the International Shooting Sport Federation came into existence and brought some standardizations to the sport.

    When shooting was reintroduced in 1932, it consisted of only two events. From this, the number of events have increased steadily until reaching the 2000–2004 maximum of seventeen events. The 2008 games had only fifteen. Events marked as “Men’s” were actually open events from 1968 until 1980 (and in shotgun events until 1992). Two women won medals in such mixed events: Margaret Murdock, silver in Rifle 3 positions (1976) and Zhang Shan, gold in Skeet (1992).

    Only two female medallists. I’d have expected more in an “Open” competition

    breatheeasy
    Member

    Whilst I’d put shooting down more as a skill sport, I still think there’s an element of strength certainly in the 3 position events. Not sure if theres advantage for skeets side, never done that much

    breatheeasy
    Member

    I know Olympic gold winner Malcolm Coopers wife, Sarah, was one of the best shooters in the UK regardless of sex.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    deadlydarcy wrote:

    Hilarious that male club hobbyists claim they’d take points off one of the top females in tennis. Yeah, I suppose the ladies might have the odd double fault.

    Only if they got bored. They could probably take 10mph off their serve to make sure it went in and still ace anybody on here.

    mefty
    Member

    It is not a sexist attitude, the simple fact is that in many sports there is a much smaller talent pool because far fewer girls play the sport, they do other things instead like ballet – how many boys do ballet?

    Men’s Wimbledon became better to watch because they detuned it to make it slower, thus there are longer rallies now. At the moment Men’s tennis is amazing as you have got three of the greatest players of all time playing. Women’s tennis is more open, when Serena is not around or off form, but people don’t know the players as well as therefore aren’t “invested in them”. It is either Serena or ABS. Before the detune, many prefer watching the women’s game because it wasn’t as serve dominated.

    I have a only child who is a daughter, so I am keen to push women’s sport, indeed I help coach cricket and hockey. In Hockey, we have more girls than boys but men’s hockey is faster because men are faster and stronger. In cricket, we have far more boys, but the beauty of cricket as a sport is whilst physical ability is helpful, it is not a pre-requisite, so girls can play great cricket and you see the best mixing it up with the men. I’m off to the final of the Women’s World Cup next week, it will be a decent watch a bit like cricket in the 80s without the very fast bowlers.

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    Hilarious that male club hobbyists claim they’d take points off one of the top females in tennis. Yeah, I suppose the ladies might have the odd double fault. Plenty of Walter Mitty types around.

    Who are you referring to DD? Haven’t seen any on here, have you?

    irelanst
    Member

    It’s because of latent sexist attitudes in society that see women’s sport as inferior. People don’t watch it because it’s not on, it’s not billed the same, standards are lower because there’s less money in it because it’s not on and it’s not watched as much. Little girls have to struggle to find sporting role models and to compete in high quality competitions. You don’t see little boys short of sporting role models do you?

    Speaking as a father of a ‘sporty’ girl I honestly think this is complete bollocks. It’s nothing to do with “sexist attitudes” it’s inferior because it is – not because of money, billing or how many people are watching it, it’s because women aren’t as good at any given sport – look at the record books and men are ~10% better across pretty much all sports. You can smash as much testosterone down female athletes and they can turn their phones off when the inspectors come knocking as much as they want but they simply aren’t as good as the men. And when it comes to pro sport if i’m paying to watch it, I want to be in awe, not watching performances that club athletes that I know can churn out.

    They don’t have to struggle to compete in high quality competitions, my daughter has competed at international level in 2 different sports in the last few weeks and her best friend has competed in another 2, boys in her peer group have a much more competitive pool to beat to get anywhere close to that level.

    And as for female role models: again, this is pure nonsense; there are plenty around, my daughter has posters of KJT, Simone Biles and Gabi Butler on her wall.

    She’s young enough to be able to compete with her male peers (they’re YR6) which is why I had a group of them chasing me around the parkrun on Saturday with the aim of being the first one in their class to go <20 (2 girls and 2 boys did it out of the 7 FWIW) but ultimately she knows that even if she gets to Olympic standard for her chosen sport that ‘average’ men will beat her. It doesn’t make her achievements less worthy, but I can fully understand why people wouldn’t want to watch her.

    Ramsey Neil
    Member

    @mefty how and when did they de-tune men’s wimbledon to make it slower ?

    mefty
    Member

    They changed the grass in 2001 to perennial rye which doesn’t wear as much so the bounce is truer and higher, in 2002 I believe they brought in new balls. Some suggest they are slightly bigger than those used elsewhere.

    EDIT: Although on the Wimbledon site they say that the ball hasn’t been changed since 1995 when they changed the pressure.

    Premier Icon ratherbeintobago
    Subscriber

    they can turn their phones off when the inspectors come knocking as much as they want

    I wonder if we’ll ever find out what all was in Fuentes’ fridge?

    giantalkali
    Member

    Jimjam copied and pasted, just sayin’…

    http://www.skeptic.com/downloads/conceptual-penis/23311886.2017.1330439.pdf

    It’s like the megaavalanche

    jimjam
    Member

    giantalkali – Member

    Jimjam copied and pasted, just sayin’…

    http://www.skeptic.com/downloads/conceptual-penis/23311886.2017.1330439.pdf

    How dare you 😈 I copied and pasted one sentence. Are we supposed to just ignore the conceptual penis as a social construct when discussing non existent sexual dimorphism?

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    It’s because of latent sexist attitudes in society that see women’s sport as inferior.

    I too think this is rubbish – girls as a whole just do not seem as driven as men to partake in sports – if they did there would be more competition and more strength in depth and therefore better competition.

    That has been the problem with Wimbledon, not enough strength in depth.

    Another issue might be camera angles – if you go and watch a ladies match live at Wimbledon, particularly close up on an outside court, the game is much more entertaining and you see the impressive levels of skill and effort the ladies have to put in. TV coverage loses quite a lot although the French Open coverge seems better.

    I do think best of 3 sets is a bit short, but best of 5 might be a bit long considering the amount of effort the ladies have to put in – maybe the 3 sets should be longer?

    Premier Icon kennyp
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    Instead of sport, perhaps they should stick to more traditional female jobs……like time travelling.

    Premier Icon aracer
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    Yeah or prime ministeering. Though that may be a poor example of female success.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    I too think this is rubbish – girls as a whole just do not seem as driven as men to partake in sports

    And why is that? Don’t you think that might have something to do with society?

    You should have a chat with my mum about this. As a former PE teacher she’s seen countless driven talented girls just drift away from sport – largely because women’s sport doesn’t have the prestige and respect that men’s sport does.

    but they simply aren’t as good as the men

    Why? Don’t you think that and this:

    They don’t have to struggle to compete in high quality competitions, my daughter has competed at international level in 2 different sports in the last few weeks and her best friend has competed in another 2, boys in her peer group have a much more competitive pool to beat to get anywhere close to that level.

    .. might be because fewer women are doing sport? And that that in turn might be because of my point above – because it’s not seen as a desirable respectable worthy thing to be doing?

    She’s young enough to be able to compete with her male peers (they’re YR6) which is why I had a group of them chasing me around the parkrun on Saturday with the aim of being the first one in their class to go <20 (2 girls and 2 boys did it out of the 7 FWIW) but ultimately she knows that even if she gets to Olympic standard for her chosen sport that ‘average’ men will beat her. It doesn’t make her achievements less worthy, but I can fully understand why people wouldn’t want to watch her.

    Why is it less spectacular in a 5000m race when the times are slightly slower? Can you not have a tense close exciting race? I do not think the argument that women are slower therefore less exciting holds up when you look at paralympic sport.

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    And why is that? Don’t you think that might have something to do with society?

    I do not – don’t remember any stigmatism associated with the women in the tennis clubs I have been in, but I also don’t remember that many staying out on the courts for hours and hours of grinding practise, prefering to just partake in the social tennis.

    There were obviously a few girls playing at a high standard and having intense practise sessions but not as many as the guys. But I couldn’t see any social reason why they would not be.

    I read something a while ago about women being less driven to exercise, but they would seem to benefit more from it :

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4933535/

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9197589/Women-exercise-half-as-much-as-men.html

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    I do not – don’t remember any stigmatism associated with the women in the tennis clubs I have been in

    What about football and rugby clubs?

    But I couldn’t see any social reason why they would not be.

    It’s not about the clubs. It’s about society as a whole. This thread for example is quite heavily criticising women for being crap at sport and the results being rubbish to watch. Not exactly inspiring is it?

    Premier Icon theotherjonv
    Subscriber

    Why is it less spectacular in a 5000m race when the times are slightly slower? Can you not have a tense close exciting race?

    This ^

    I understand that there are some sports where raw power and speed, etc., are what make it exciting to watch at the pinnacle. Fast bowlers at 90+ mph being slapped into the second tier of the stand, etc.

    But most of the time you want to watch close competition. Was Jo Konta’s win against Simona Halep better or worse to watch than Federer dismantling Cilic? Was Jessica Ennis’s Olympic Gold a bit ‘meh’ because she can ‘only’ high jump enough to compete against club standard men? Pile of bollocks.

    If it was only about the very best, no-one would watch sport beyond the very top level. Champions League, World Cups, etc. But I’ve seen some brilliantly exciting and entertaining games at non-league level, and rarely did I think they would be better if Ronaldo was playing – he’d have ruined it by being too good!

    (I’ve seen some shit too – as a Reading fan of 40 years that’s to be expected)

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    What about football and rugby clubs?

    maybe they don’t like the, perhaps perceived, levels of aggresion and physical contact.

    Maybe they just don’t like the games.

    How many young girls do you ever see down the park kicking or throwing a ball about, compared to the boys. The only stigma they would be getting at that point of their lives would probably be from their parents.

    Same at the cycling clubs (not that I have a lot of experience). How many of the ladies like going out and grinding around the hills for the acheivement, feelign a sense of pride from the amount of dried salt strains on their helmets straps, versus going out for social rides.

    In my experience more prefer the social rides and the lack of the pain of the hills. Not a criticism, they just enjoy different things.

    This thread for example is quite heavily criticising women for being crap at sport and the results being rubbish to watch. Not exactly inspiring is it?

    you read a lot of stuff into threads that isn’t really there – where is the heavy criticism – there’s stuff about lack of strength in depth of the field causing it to not be close, and how it is the same with mens competition, and there’s stuff about screaming players being annoying.

    STATO
    Member

    How many young girls do you ever see down the park kicking or throwing a ball about, compared to the boys. The only stigma they would be getting at that point of their lives would probably be from their parents.

    Parents, grand parents, what their friends are doing (influenced by their own parents). How many of us have mates who adore football and actively pass it on to their son, while following the sterotype of letting daugthers be brought following their mothers interest? Even if you dont do that with your kids they will be influenced by their friends who probably have. Its an incredibly slow process to change set preconceptions, as we can see from your view that women that ‘just like different things’ is not a result of societal imbalance. How many women (or even men) have been put off doing things they want by the perceptions of what the crowd is doing and just doing that instead.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    How many young girls do you ever see down the park kicking or throwing a ball about, compared to the boys

    I think you are pretty naive if you think that gender stereotypes aren’t being enforced at that age. As soon as the kids are born it’s girls this, and boys that. Even if you are careful not to do this at home, as soon as they hit nursery it starts.

    Not a criticism, they just enjoy different things.

    You don’t have to make this point multiple times. I agree. The question I am asking is WHY is this the case?

    where is the heavy criticism

    I don’t normally do this but:

    “Women’s tennis…. A bit meh?”

    “I just don’t find women’s tennis particularly exciting…”

    “I feel the same about most women’s sport”

    “I can’t take it seriously, so I don’t watch women’s tennis”

    “Other sports, mehhh. I’m sure they put in 100% of the effort the men do, and it’s just as exciting to be involved in, but they’re just not interesting to watch. Women’s road cycling falls into that category”

    “women’s “top level” football is embarrassing to watch”

    “IMO few ladies sports compete from an overall entertainment perspective and absurd TI ask for equal pay”

    “It’s not just Women’s tennis that’s beyond dull..”

    “in general, women’s sports are rubbish to watch compared to men’s”

    “Women boxing though, does nothing for me.”

    “Reminds me how off putting it is swimming sets behind a woman who has a tampn string dangling out of her cossie”

    “it’s not as good as watching the men”

    “They just need to focus on more appropriate sports, jelly wrestling, beach volleyball, speed ironing, endurance breastfeeding, 5a side chit chat, that kind of thing”

    “Outrageous that they get paid the same for a vastly interior product.”

    “it’s because women aren’t as good at any given sport”

    Now imagine you’re a young girl looking to make sense out of the world, and you read shit like that all the time. How do you think it’d make you feel about choosing sport? Knowing that society views it as a token gesture, that you’re always going to be the sideshow or second best to the big tough men?

    STATO
    Member

    Now imagine you’re a young girl looking to make sense out of the world, and you read shit like that all the time. How do you think it’d make you feel about choosing sport? Knowing that society views it as a token gesture, that you’re always going to be the sideshow or second best to the big tough men?

    Its not even that as the first barrier, but their peers. Dont follow the trend and your almost an outcast unless you find friends going the same was, it takes a strong person to do that and kids or teens have so much going on its hard for them to stick with it (and that goes just as much for boys)

    Premier Icon theotherjonv
    Subscriber

    How many young girls do you ever see down the park kicking or throwing a ball about, compared to the boys. The only stigma they would be getting at that point of their lives would probably be from their parents.

    Sadly – my daughter (11) is that girl. And she doesn’t get the stigma from her parents or grandparents, nor from her school teachers, all of who have supported her to the fullest extent.

    In fact as I happen to have her class report in front of me let me copy some of it for you…..

    “E has fully immersed herself in school life this year – she has been a brave and enthusiastic member of the girls and mixed football teams, scoring a goal in the district futsal final this year, has been part of the team that reached the county tag rugby finals, has braved every weather as part of the morning milers and has strummed her guitar with skill and glee. She needs to continue to be herself, she doesn’t need to be anything she doesn’t want to be”

    That last comment is not at her or her capabilities. It’s because she has really struggled at times this year, where despite being clearly capable she has been shunned by the boys in her peer group. And because she’s not a stereotypical girl whatever the **** that is in these ‘enlightened’ times, she has no real girl friends in a small school either – there’s only one other girl vaguely like her. And she feels lonely and isolated and without her organised sport clubs she feels she has nothing to belong to.

    So where are these 10 and 11yo boys and girls getting their cues from? Because reading some of the past comments on this thread, i suspect they are being ingrained by people like you. And that makes me sad.

    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjJQBjWYDTs[/video]

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    A couple of distasteful comments but things like ‘meh’ and a bit dull don’t count as heavy criticism.

    If you’re the type of person who is going to excel at sport comments like that will mean nothing – compared to all the adversity you are going to have to get past to get to the top of your game.

    Andy Murray gets a lot more flack than that and he is a hugely consistent and skilled player.

    Premier Icon theotherjonv
    Subscriber

    If you’re the type of person who is going to excel at sport

    Who said excel?

    If you’re the kind of person who wants to participate in sport, you should be able to without people telling you you can’t / that it is of lesser value because you aren’t as good as a male of the same relative capability.

    “Today, 7 out of 10 girls feel they don’t belong in sports so it’s really no wonder that over half quit sports around puberty, at a moment where their confidence plummets and they are trying to conform to societal expectations. On top of feeling they need to stop something they often love, girls are then robbed of the benefits of playing sports, which is one of the strongest confidence-building activities at a time when they need it the most!

    Sports is critical in building confidence. In fact, a recent study found that women aged 18 to 24 are twice as likely to be confident if they play sports regularly than those who do not play at all! And yet, society is not tackling the silent issue of girls dropping out of sports. “

    Like a Girl

    Sorry, if you don’t see the comments over the page as EXACTLY the issue that girls and parents of girls face, then you ARE part of that problem, like it or not.

    El-bent
    Member

    I too think this is rubbish – girls as a whole just do not seem as driven as men to partake in sports

    Perhaps its a question of programming. Who has ran human society for so long, and who set out the gender agendas.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    A couple of distasteful comments but things like ‘meh’ and a bit dull don’t count as heavy criticism.

    They have the effect though. That shows you how ingrained sexist attitudes are, and demonstrates how people don’t even realise it. People think women’s sport isn’t as good because it’s women. And people don’t even notice the corrosive effect that these attitudes are having on young girls.

    The question you should be asking is “why the hell is half our population totally under-represented in the sporting establishment and media coverage?”

    As a father I have to fight the attitudes just like the ones on display in this thread on a regular basis. Yes, girls can like Star Wars and superheros. No, you don’t have to have Lego Friends, you can have the lorry. Yes, girls can be sports people etc etc. The amount of shocking sexist crap that they pick up casually from the people around them is awful.

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    Who said excel?

    err, this thread was about womens tennis being a bit meh, which is because there is no strength in depth, and for there to be strength in depth it needs people who excel at tennis. Self explanatory.

    Perhaps its a question of programming

    In this country – in this day and age with cross gender/dressing people walking around and no-one batting an eyelid, but women don’t feel empowered enough to put their trainers on and go out for some exercise the same as men do ?

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    In this country – in this day and age with cross gender/dressing people walking around and no-one batting an eyelid, but women don’t feel empowered enough to put their trainers on and go out for some exercise the same as men do ?

    YES. EXACTLY THAT.

    Gender politics is a lot more complicated than you seem to realise.

    People might be able to wander around as whatever gender they like, but you’ll find that they are subject to stereotyping and prejudice. Women are, and men are too – except that men don’t suffer as much from it or in the same ways.

    Premier Icon theotherjonv
    Subscriber

    No. It’s a debate that has gone on from the original point 2 days ago, about the (perceived) lower value of women’s sport.

    In this country – in this day and age with cross gender/dressing people walking around and no-one batting an eyelid, but women don’t feel empowered enough to put their trainers on and go out for some exercise the same as men do ?

    Plenty do…. until they start getting told by certain parts of society that they can’t. The other ’empowerment’ issues are far more protected imho than this – because it’s still perfectly ok and funny for people to laugh and point at women playing sport, with their tampon strings hanging out or their nipples slightly visible under their kit or……. ha ha. Well it isn’t.

    Do you have daughters? Do you have any idea what it’s like?

    jimjam
    Member

    The men of singletrackworld can always be relied upon to identify the struggles of women in western Europe at the hands of the privileged, white, misogynist patriarchy.

    The Pilot
    Member

    That’s the third time you’ve cracked that same ‘joke’ in one thread now, JimJam.

    It’s nice to see there are some people on STW who ‘get it’, gives me a little hope, but overall this thread leaves me feeling very very sad.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    The men of singletrackworld can always be relied upon to identify the struggles of women in western Europe at the hands of the privileged, white, misogynist patriarchy.

    Not sure what this means jim.

    because it’s still perfectly ok and funny for people to laugh and point at women playing sport

    Or fat women in the gym. And so on.

    bikebouy
    Member

    Good to see the threads still in full swing…

    What are the scores so far ?

    30 – Love ?

    mefty
    Member

    Or fat women in the gym. And so on.

    Or the fat bloke?

    30 – Love ?

    Dont call me Love

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    molgrips wrote:

    I do not – don’t remember any stigmatism associated with the women in the tennis clubs I have been in

    What about football and rugby clubs?
    [/quote]

    What about them? I’m not that interested in the sort of laddish stuff I imagine happens at such clubs either. Whilst I broadly agree with the points you’re making, TurnerGuy does make a good point there – tennis is an example of a sport where things are far more equal than most (it’s one of the few where top women players can make a really good living, and hence where there are plenty of well publicised role models) and it’s one which a lot of women participate in at the recreational level. If the women still aren’t pushing themselves as hard as the men despite an environment where they are equal that might tell you something. Because as much as you might like to blame it all on society, there are fundamental differences – it’s the same difference which means it’s mostly blokes getting into fights on a Saturday night.

    I don’t disagree that there’s a lot wrong with society regarding women in sport and that is the principle thing which needs changing, but it’s not the only thing.

    Anecdotally I’m currently regularly participating in a couple of sports where there is a rather higher proportion of women taking part – roller skating and rock climbing. The most obvious difference is that they’re both rather more social and less competitive than more traditional sports (the roller hockey I go to is certainly competitive, but then the gender ratios are slightly different at that, it’s a fairly equal mix rather than female dominated as other sessions I go to tend to be!) which is I suppose also one reason they’re what I’m now doing.

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