Jeez, when are people going to learn that tolerance from landowners who may have to pick up the insurance tab if we **** up badly is the only thing that allows people to ride in some areas?

And getting a bollocking from someone who is at the end of his tether while he is holding a shotgun isn’t exactly “pulling a gun” or a threat to kill.

Waving a gun around when members of the public? Doesn’t matter how much they’ve been wound up – that’s out of order. No-one needs a gun in the UK

Unless they are a farmer or landowner on their own private land who weren’t expecting to come across self entitled trespassers whilst going about their legitimate business or past time…. Shoots are common in the area, farmers use guns. A couple of the pubs are frequented by game keeper types.

No-one needs a gun in the UK

Quite a lot of people need them, quite a lot of people use them and regard them as a tool of the job, in the way a builder carries a hammer.

The fact that some people don’t get this fact leads to a lot of hysteria and over reaction.

You are far more likely to be killed by someone with a hammer/screwdriver etc than a gun.

He probably kept hold of the shotgun, so it wasnt left unattended in his vehicle

You are far more likely to be killed by someone with a hammer/screwdriver etc than a gun.

Probably not when you adjust for the relative population sizes of guns vs hammers/screwdrivers, eh?

If it’s private land, i can see why the owner may revoke access, but jumping out of a car with a shotgun… Really? Has nobody ever got this on camera and reported it?

My view is ownership of some woodland in an area like this, especially by some millionaire, should not prevent others using it in a non distructive way. To me that means no eyesore jumps, but bike trails should be permitted as it avoids conflict with walkers and horse riders. I know this is not what the law says, but laws change.

Yep. There are rules about leaving firearms unattended.

I don’t like the direction this is going – next thing we know people will be attaching cameras to their kids in order to film their rides and their meetings with big Jim. They will probably post them on some form of social media too.

Save us…..

We have been here before on previous threads but

revoke access

. It is private land, access has never been granted. The volume of traffic has increased beyond measure since the early “respectful use of hidden trails” early days. It is not a trail centre, people live in the area and other people want to enjoy the access privileges too. Weekends are ridiculous, strava warriors abound, carparks overflow, little way is given. Pitch Hill has been scarred dramatically, it really has been abused, I know I am a NIMBY, but 10 years ago these areas really were AONB.
Too much of a good thing.

I agree with TeamHurtmore on this. The shotgun, or the landowners behaviour is a distraction here. Lets stick to the point which IMO is about a minority selfishly building jumps on private land which is leading to access to a great riding area no longer possible. Shouldnt we be talking about how we manage this as an mtb community rather than debating which is statisticly or actually more deadly, a screw driver or a shotgun 😆

teamhurtmore – Member
I don’t like the direction this is going – next thing we know people will be attaching cameras to their kids in order to film their rides and their meetings with big Jim. They will probably post them on some form of social media too.

Save us…..

Of course, they won’t try and antagonise the situation for the camera at all….Oh no. Not at all.

Lets stick to the point which IMO is about a minority selfishly building jumps on private land which is leading to access to a great riding area no longer possible.

Amen, brother!

I’m sad that I don’t get to ride the SH much any more, as it’s the location of so many happy memories, but it was getting silly when I started moving away. As others have said, so many people getting all stormtroopered up and thinking they were in their own private Whistler bike park, rather than a lovely part of the world with some lovely riding. And, it should be noted, some very accommodating land owners who were willing to work with the MTB community. All of that risks being ruined by cockwombles thinking the world owes them something.

People just need to respect the wishes of the land owner, whether they agree with it or not. The fact that he owns the land is reason enough to revoke access to it and some individuals need to grasp this concept rather than ride around with some sense of entitlement that they can do what they like, where they like.

In this case a minority have kept on pushing the boundaries to the point where the land owner has decided has had enough and if I were in a similar position, I would probably react in the same way. There had to be a bit of give and take on both sides and clearly some piss taking has lead to too much take.

As already mentioned there are plenty of alternative trails in the area to use and for the sake of the bigger picture I hope the Winterfold ones are left alone otherwise we may well end up with nothing at all. Again, let’s hope those with the entitlement gene don’t **** it up for the rest of us.

Went for a ride yesterday morning and it appears some of the signs bordering the non hurtwood part of his land have already been torn down. 🙁

My worry now is that if the ‘MTB community’ (as if that exists, you can see the split between those that want to respect this and the ones that think their entitlement trumps all) – I digress – if the MTB Community shows itself unable to respect the requests of the landowner here, then other landowners either adjacent to this land (Hurtwood) or even further afield (MOD around Woking?) will think differently about what they want to do.

If I was a landowner / agent of another area currently discussing responsible access to ‘my’ land for recreational MTB’ing, I’d be watching this with interest. And abusing the landowner, blocking his road, tearing down his signage – it wouldn’t be making me feel warm and fuzzy about opening my land up subject to following some basic rules.

Watch what you do people…. this has implications beyond a few square yards of Winterfold.

TBH what is likely to happen soon is he’ll just start calling the police and claiming aggravated trespass any time he sees a mountain biker as he’s had enough run-ins and people riding around the logging areas to justify that being the case. This is what often used to happen on Redlands; no landowner or their representatives, just the police as the first port of call. It’s the main reason that Redlands is considered almost a no-go area; there is zero tolerance there.

My worry now is that if the ‘MTB community’ (as if that exists, you can see the split between those that want to respect this and the ones that think their entitlement trumps all) – I digress – if the MTB Community shows itself unable to respect the requests of the landowner here, then other landowners either adjacent to this land (Hurtwood) or even further afield (MOD around Woking?) will think differently about what they want to do.

Very valid/good point. We dont want to lose all access. That would be 1000 times worse than losing Winterfold.

Discussing this at work the other day and we had an idea. The main issue (there are a few though) or real sticking point for Jim, as far as I know, is the insurance implications. I wonder if during the discussions with him it could be discussed how much it would cost to extend the insurance to allow bikers in certain areas.Depending if the cost was reasonable, what “reasonable” is, i’m not quite sure, but we, ie the MTB community who ride there could could do a crowd funding campaign (or similar) to raise funds to cover the cost for a year. Yes, of course there will be people who ride there and who wont pay, but hey, at least it might become available again – with some rules. Just an idea, lots of pros and cons of course, but it could be a starting point??

it’s an idea and worth investigation but I suspect fraught with difficulties – i can’t imagine a policy to cover any / all unnamed riders against accidents on ‘unsanctioned’ and uncontrolled trails, with no grading, no checking, no idea whether that trail’s had a gap jump suddenly added to it…….. is going to be anyway near affordable for the ‘few’ to fund on behalf of everyone.

That said – if someone wants to do that legwork and if it did turn out achievable I’d find a few quid to support it.

@bgas that’s an idea but in practice I wonder what it would raise ? (“I’m not paying to ride just a few trails when the rest is free” type logic). I wonder how many mtb-ers are Friends of the Hurtwood (£25) or put a £1 in the collection cairn at Walking Bottom ?

Hello, just tagging thread.

rather than ride around with some sense of entitlement that they can do what they like

In one.

This place is not a bike park.

I wonder how many mtb-ers are Friends of the Hurtwood (£25)

/puts hand up.

I wonder how many mtb-ers are Friends of the Hurtwood (£25)

Don’t mind saying I do. Least I can do given how much the kids and I use the forests/trails.

More so how may mtb-ers follow the code of conduct for riding in Hurtwood.

The insurance thing is a noble idea but in addition to what jonv says would be a nightmare to regulate/manage. Perhaps circulate a flyer on all vehicles parked reiterating the code of conduct and general situation emphasizing respect etc with a few notices posted at the start of trailheads. Of course would need a discussion with the landowners, Mark, P&S etc but just an idea to get the word out to users of Hurtwood or even spread the word through the local bike shops.

a flyer on all vehicles

90% of which would be flung to the winds. Sadly.

I was a member when I lived locally but have let it lapse I admit. I do put a £1 in the cairn when I am there (2 years ago now 🙁 )

Sadly as mtb-ers we do generally spend ££££ on bikes, kit and fuel to drive there but expect to ride for free.

those trails that are in SSSI.

SSSI, Nuke?

I wonder how many mtb-ers are Friends of the Hurtwood (£25)

I was for years until they sold most of it as a way of avoiding tax on profits when Handa Bray dies.

They only own Holmbury hill now, and i expect that to be sold in the next 10 years or so

Kind of lost me then sadly as its run as a charity

Apparently Jim did ask to buy the whole lot at a discount but he was turned down………

It’s interesting as someone who lives at the other end of the country to see how this thread started as “poor landowner doesn’t feel it’s safe for him and his family due to a load of digging” to “landowner has run people off access roads and threatened them with shotgun, but people should still be nice to him and we shouldn’t talk about him being a dick”.

If someone goes around threatening enough people with a 4×4 and a shotgun, instead of requiesting politely that they leave his land (i.e. what he’s legally entitled to do), someone’s going to do something back to him, and I think he got off lightly with trees across his drive.

.

If it’s so much trouble running the land he owns already why does he want to buy more of it? Genuinely interested in his motivation behind owning such an estate.

philjunior – Member
It’s interesting as someone who lives at the other end of the country to see how this thread started as “poor landowner doesn’t feel it’s safe for him and his family due to a load of digging” to “landowner has run people off access roads and threatened them with shotgun, but people should still be nice to him and we shouldn’t talk about him being a dick”.

If someone goes around threatening enough people with a 4×4 and a shotgun, instead of requiesting politely that they leave his land (i.e. what he’s legally entitled to do), someone’s going to do something back to him, and I think he got off lightly with trees across his drive.

The problem is, you end up with attitudes like yours. Viewing winding up landowners as some sort of sport. The problem being that to him you’re just dickish MTB’er number 20 of the day and his accommodating nature ran out 19 dickish MTB’ers ago.

And no one’s been threatened with a shotgun or run off the road. They’ve been stopped by a guy in a 4×4 holding a shotgun.

If it’s so much trouble running the land he owns already why does he want to buy more of it? Genuinely interested in his motivation behind owning such an estate.

He owns all of Dunsfold as well and as that is to be developed into a new town he will be a very wealthy man I guess. There is profit to be made on the timber that is grown and i imagine there are tax benefits to owning woodland.
the whole of Pitch hill was sold for arounf 670k so not really big money
I believe he offered around 1.5million for all of the plots that were up for sale

Probably so they can frack it all.

Probably so they can frack it all.

Well (pardon the pun)thats not so far fetched as there is gas on Blackheath and oil on Leith Hill

They’ve been stopped on his private land by a guy in a 4×4 holding a shotgun.

Well (pardon the pun)thats not so far fetched as there is gas on Blackheath and oil on Leith Hill

OTOH my dad’s a bit of an ex-hippie and keeps talking about buying bits of remote woodland/moorland/hillside. I think the idea of owning land and having a corner of the countryside you can call your own just appeals to some people.

As I point out to my OH every time the garden needs weeding, I hate gardening, I’d much rather have a few 10’s of acres of nature around my house than a few hundred square meters of manicured suburban lawn.

“No-one needs a gun in the UK”
Quite a lot of people need them, quite a lot of people use them and regard them as a tool of the job, in the way a builder carries a hammer. The fact that some people don’t get this fact leads to a lot of hysteria and over reaction.

Sure, that was a crap comment. I have in laws that are farmers and have guns which they use both to dispatch pests on their land and shoot game.

Knowing the tracks through Winterfold I’m not sure why he’d be driving with a shotgun in the cab of a vehicle or why it would be safer to get out of the car carrying it rather than leaving locked in the vehicle (other than to add a level of threat or intimidation). It’s woodland, he’s not keeping animals. I’ve never come across pheasants being reared in that part of the hills (though they may be there). Who knows.

I’m not sure why he’d be driving with a shotgun in the cab of a vehicle

Well he is South African……..

[video]https://youtu.be/aeDk6ZeGNnU[/video]

why it would be safer to get out of the car carrying it rather than leaving locked in the vehicle

IIRC (it’s been a few years since I had any dealings with firearms, and then it wasn’t shotguns) it may well not be down to his individual discretion and judgement – it may well be a condition of the licence that it isn’t left unattended in a vehicle, full stop, no get outs, no exceptions – it’s either in your locked cabinet at home, or it’s on your person at all times.

jambalaya – Member 
I wonder how many mtb-ers are Friends of the Hurtwood (£25)

I am 🙂 . Been a member for a few years now.

I see they also do an Easyfundraising thing on their site now. Raises money via shopping.

https://friendsofthehurtwood.co.uk/

xcgb – Member 
I was for years until they sold most of it as a way of avoiding tax on profits when Handa Bray dies.

They only own Holmbury hill now, and i expect that to be sold in the next 10 years or so

Kind of lost me then sadly as its run as a charity

The Hurtwood land maintained by the Friends still covers the same areas, it’s just different land owners. So far they’re still retaining the open access, including Jim for the bits he now owns (the Winterfold Woods area of issue is non-Hurtwood and always was). It wasn’t all the Brays anyway even before the sale.

Funding the Friends retains the ranger which keeps the car parks open, paths clear of fallen trees, including on tolerated trails, clears fly tipping*.

* which is a note as Surrey CC claim fly tipping is down since introducing charges at the tip, but that only covers council land. Private land owners still have to clear their own land and that doesn’t go into the council stats.