I have gravitated in last few yrs towards base layers with softshell, varying from Endura Windchill through to Stealth, for mixed winter riding.

There are some decent hardshell jackets around now with great claims on waterproofness and breathability, which I guess give same result over a base layer or 2, plus better rain protection.

So who’s using what and what’s best for cold, windy often wet winter riding.

I’m just about to get a hardshell to keep the wind/rain out. Soft shells just saturate.
Be interested to hear if they work – reviews look OK but I’m not expecting miracles in terms of breathability.

Yes, was prompted by the Madison softshell thread. Wonder how these new shells, like the Addict etc, hold up after a winter of getting chucked in washing machine etc – do they still breathe and repel water etc ???

After pondering this recently, I thought I’d give Neoshell a go. Soft and hard in one package. I bought the Sportful fiandre extreme. Not used yet so watch this space.

I have ‘normal’ hardshells and softshells plus a Gabba (sort of) semi cross over so it’ll be interesting to see how Neoshell works. It’s been used in mountain gear for a few years so hardly unproven.

I have a Sportful Fiandre NoRain for road use, thinking here more MTB..

I prefer softshells, but it’s a very personal choice, like saddles and helmets.

My reasoning is that I run quite hot, so generally I don’t mind the dampness of a softshell as long as it’s keeping the wind off of me – my current gave is a gore alp-x – works great for me.

My experience of proper waterproofs is not convincing. If they’re wet on the outside, they ain’t breathable, and so I end up wetter with sweat anyway.

Softshell 99% of the time – I’d only put a hardshell on if it’s really hooning-down, otherwise it’s boil-in-the-bag. Gore Tool is my fave winter MTB jacket – re-proofing the fabric helps to stop it wetting-through.

Always riding have the Giro neoshell on offer. I’ve held off as the cut is not quite what I’m after.

NeoRain

And hard shells are useless for the likes of last Sunday’s weather – pissing and 15 degC!

The Fiandre No Rain is more like the Gabba. The Neoshell items are laminates like GoreTex and fully seam sealed to keep the crap out. They are more hardshell in waterproofing and like softshells in stretch, fit and breathability.

I only bother with a hardshell if I’m expecting a very long, very wet and quite cold ride.

I’d like to try that posh new Gore Tex that’s supposed to be more breathable, but I like the comfort of a softshell anyway.

Softshells always seem like 2 layers needlessly attached together, I’d rather be able to finetune, so I don’t often wear mine.

That ‘new’ GoreTex is no more breathable than eVent. You’ll still get wet from sweat. I have an eVent mountain top and it’s good but doesn’t solve the fundamental problem.

[edit] Yeah softshells remind me of the ‘Buffalo revolution’ a few years ago. In theory good, in practice inflexible. Buffalo, good for sitting on a belay in the middle of winter, too warm for much else.

What do we think to the breathability numbers…? For example (Womens as that is what I have been looking at):

Madison Flo softshell – 10,000 mm waterproof, 10,000 gms breathable
Madison Flo waterproof – 12,000 mm waterproof, 15,000 gms breathable
Dakine Caliber waterproof – 20,000 mm waterproof, 20,000 gms breathable

So even though we all argue that the softshells should be more breathable, on paper, the waterproofs are.

Know this is marketing stuff and what matters is in the real world, but how to choose?

As already said above, once the outer is completely soaked, breathability is almost zero anyway.

A softshell really only works when I am not going to be out for long and water-resistance will suffice. Once it’s pissing down, or there’s even the risk of that, I prefer a full hardshell. GoreTex ActiveShell seems to work pretty well for me. Also eVent.

Rapha wind jacket if you’re working at tempo, it’s cold, and there isn’t rain (showers are fine). Well, rain is fine also, but you will get wet. You will get wet in anything other than a waterproof shell, but a waterproof shell WILL make you sweat like f*. I don’t ride in the rain so it is not a consideration for me. But if it’s cold + very rainy you need a waterproof shell otherwise you will regret being alive as a wind breaker will stop breaking the wind when it’s utterly saturated.

It’s the best purchase I’ve made in a long time. Has done 3 winters. Have never been too hot in it (even up to 15C) and never been too cold (if you base layer correctly). SUPER breathable but somehow (magically, as it’s paper thin) keeps the chill out. Literally witchcraft. A lot of my friends swear buy it as well.

N

boblo – Member

That ‘new’ GoreTex is no more breathable than eVent. You’ll still get wet from sweat. I have an eVent mountain top and it’s good but doesn’t solve the fundamental problem.

No amount of breathability can stop you getting wet. You can get wet with sweat while naked. Breathability just helps it get away after you’re wet. If you want to stay drier you need to be colder.

It’s certainly more of an issue as a cyclist than as a walker/mountaineer where an intermediate fleece layer can act as a bit of a reservoir between skin and outer. It does mean that it can feel less damp inside your outer layer if it’s cold enough to warrant a mid-layer of some sort.

Been and looked at the detail of my Gore jacket – it is an active shell Element. They never list it as fully waterproof but it does have taped seams and have to say, is about as breathable as any walking jacket I’ve had. I’ve been in some decent rain in it and been dry, apart from when it starts soaking down the neck as no hood.

Seeing Addict shell online under £100, tempted…..

What on earth happened to Gore N2S?
It’s the only soft-shell fabric that’s really worked for me, I’ve had a new Phantom for a couple of years, but only worn it a couple of times- it’s tattered older brother is still the top I grab if I don’t want a hard shell and layers.

I’ve been using an Exolite 2 softshell (it’s one of those stretchy wind and water resistant type ones, not insulated at all but thicker than a windproof) and keeping an Altura Pocket Rocket (tiny roadie waterproof) in the pack at all times for when it’s properly wet. Seems to work really well – the caveat is it’s rarely below zero down here on the south coast!

I can’t be bothered with anything fancy on the bike, it always gets far too filthy.

I tend to go with a waterproof shell that packs up small enough to stick in my pack as the trick (for me) is only to wear it when it is actually raining or I need the wind blocking (e.g. on a fast descent).

If you want to stay drier you need to be colder.

I find a fleece lined jersey and a baselayer or two does the job down into sub-zero temps. Jacket only ever goes on when it’s raining, or long descents/dawdling. In fact I find the best thing for keeping you dry, is the wind. It’s good to have some air blowing through, so long as you have layers thick enough to keep you warm.

Anything is good for as quick hour blast. It’s that moment you stop on an all day ride, that’s when it’s important you’re as dry as possible and all the windbreakers and waterproof jackets in the world no longer make sense.

For those in the hardshell camp, how often do you wash them and do they need reproofed regularly ? My typical rides are very muddy, and kit all goes in wash post ride. I’m guessing this will ruin a good hardshell ?

Paramo. I know I always suggest it but I truly swear by it. Warm. Waterproof. Comfortable. Hard-wearing and lasts for decades.

I let muddy hardshells dry then brush them down. They get the washed a couple of times a year. Washing in just water will preserve any treatments and an occasional reproof with Nikwax or Grangers will restore it. However, as roverpig suggests, try to limit wear to when you really need it.

I was sceptical about a softshell as I run quite warm most of the time. Couple of years ago I picked up a cheap Karrimor softshell to try it out. Was thinking it’d do for work but it’s been great on the bike. I can use it with a layer or two of merino through the winter unless it’s really wet. The sleeves can be pulled up and it has two large pockets which can let in lots of air but basically its just like a thicker windproof layer. It’s a little short in the back as its not cycling specific but I’m not going to grumble as it only cost £30.

I go for the best of both worlds, a light / medium weight soft shell (something like a montane sabre tooth or a mountain equipment trojan) for the warmth and wind resistance – as long as you reproof the DWR coating a couple of times a year they’re water resistant enough (and still warm / wind resistant when damp) – and very lightweight hard shell in the pack to go over the top when it’s propped binning it down (some of the lightweight pertex fabrics work really well)

Been and looked at the detail of my Gore jacket – it is an active shell Element. They never list it as fully waterproof but it does have taped seams and have to say, is about as breathable as any walking jacket I’ve had.

Gore Active Shell is really good, I’ve got a 7-Mesh jacket that uses it with small well-placed vents and it’s very impressive for lack of sweat build-up and waterproofing. But it’s still not as airy as I’d need to be able to wear it for more than an hour or so if it’s not raining, unless I needed a break from a cold wind. It’s wider-ranging than anything I’ve used before though.

That ‘new’ GoreTex is no more breathable than eVent. You’ll still get wet from sweat. I have an eVent mountain top and it’s good but doesn’t solve the fundamental problem.

Agreed.

Unless really cold I’d generally go for the right 1 or 2 layers one being a normal roubaix-lined LS jersey or maybe something with a windproof arm/chest front and take a gillet or light waterproof as an added layer if needed. There’s no hardshell out there that’s good for all conditions if you’re putting in much effort. For touring type use they can be ok though.

My typical rides are very muddy, and kit all goes in wash post ride. I’m guessing this will ruin a good hardshell ?

It’ll need a lot of cleaning and WPs need care there, plus any crud on the surface tends to stop the beading effect and once the surface is holding water the breathability is limited. For that kind of use I have a cheap windproof nike running jacket. Proof it now and then fwiw. I try to avoid using my decent jackets in conditions like that too often – ie only if it’s properly raining and there’s no choice.

I find the Buffalo active shirt a good soft shell jacket. Much lighter than their mountain shirts. Much more versatile. If mine ever gives up the ghost, ill get another that day.

Over the top if needed I have an old but often reproofed haglofs l.I.m jacket. Light goretex.

I tend to prefer soft shells, but made he mistake of heading out in my softshell last week just before the heavens opened for the entire rest of the (thankfully short) ride. I’ve rarely been as cold. In those circumstances a fleece below a hard shell would have been a much better option.

I just stick my soft shell in the wash, but I tend to try to only wash any hardshell once or twice per year, instead trying to brush the dirt off once dry.

I have never had any luck in re-proofing hardshells. I do my best to follow the instructions, but they never seem to regain their water-proofness.

So who’s using what and what’s best for cold, windy often wet winter riding.

If its wet, or likely to be, then I wear a rapha hardshell jacket. Had it on last night going home in torrential rain and I was dry underneath. And as you probably know it was very very wet.

If its cold and dry then a rapha softshell, or if it’s really really cold, like a few degrees below zero then my old pace softshell as it has extra bit of cozyness.

A softsehll will keep a light shower out a gabba type fabric will keep you dry for a bit but for persistent heavy rain the the hardshell is the only option that works for me.

Rapha kit is expensive but their jackets really are the best I’ve used.

Soft shell with a thin rain jacket in the pocket.

Rapha kit is expensive but their jackets really are the best I’ve used.

I wouldn’t dare MTB in mine though.

Not so much in case of damage but I wouldn’t wanna get a brown stripe up the back.

Well yeh that’s true.

Paramo. I know I always suggest it but I truly swear by it. Warm. Waterproof. Comfortable. Hard-wearing and lasts for decades.

I like Paramo, but the way it works means it’s warmer than conventional waterproofs, so for me it only really works in deep winter conditions from around freezing point and below. Everyone’s different though and I tend to run quite hot.

Of the waterproof fabrics, I’d say Gore-Tex Active, NeoShell and eVent all works appreciably better than most competitors, but again, if you run hot, you’ll get sweaty anyway.

It also, I think, depends on the individual and the level of activity. I find Gore Windstopper and Gore-Tex Active pretty good on the road where efforts tend be steadier, but pants on the mountain bike when short, explosive efforts on, say, technical climbs, temporarily boost your sweat output to excessive levels.

Finally, ‘soft shells’s come in all sort of different types, from closely woven stretch without a membrane at one end of things through to membrane-based stuff like Windstoppper at the other. I get on well with Rab’s VR Lite kit, but it’s not the most water resistant of fabrics.

I love my Paramo Velez smock in January in Aberdeenshire (especially on sub-zero night rides), but it’s too warm for anything other than the depths of winter for me. Depends how hot you run though.

thanks for all the ideas. I have just clicked order on a Madison Flux superlight softshell – will see how it goes for wet days

Long term Paramo user (1989!), and a massive fan – but only for walking. I persevered with it on the bike for some time and it just didn’t work that well for me. Softshell for me every time. In fact, if anyone wants a brand new Endura MT500 jacket (with hood), then I’d be happy to sell them mine. It was a warranty replacement from Endura a couple of years ago when my Stealth jacket disintegrated and they had none of those available. Never been worn, medium, black. Email in profile.