I personally think driving style is more key

You can a perfectly diligent and safe in winter conditions when its just you on the road with 2 winters tyres, but the challenge comes from being in traffic around other road users.. that’s the point that you really need all 4.

Traction to get started is the least important feature of a winter tyre imo (same as the 4wd argument) If you can get started, the other 90% of non-wintered tyre users can’t, so your stuck anyway.. if you can’t stop effectively in anything but a straight line or steer around immediate hazards (other road users caught out by the conditions or exhibiting “poor driving style”) then that’s a far larger problem and you might as well have not worried about getting start off traction in the first place.

mmannerr – Member

it is beyond most drivers skills to correct the unexpected rear end slides.

Mmm. Actually that’s a completely legit point. I’m not a great driver but recovering slides comes very easily to me. I kind of assumed it’s just an easy thing to do, but thinking about it from other people’s reactions maybe not so much. Some side effect of all the time on motorbikes before I ever drove a car?

So maybe my experience isn’t standard. But for me, in FWD, better tyres on the front- having tried both and found this massively better. But I’ll think twice about assuming other folks will find the same.

Gary_C : Mate used to own a rather large car repair bodyshop in Brixton, London back in the 90’s and rallied for 10 odd years, Did all the RAC’s and various other championships – won his class in RAC using the BDA MK2 Escort and shamed many a full works 4wd car and driver, it was one of the most “sorted” BDA MK2’s there was at the time – full works specification and very frightening and very unforgiving to drive for the unwary but once you got used to it it was an absolute hoot, i sorta learned how to drive properly in this at 23years old, lucky git eh 😀 – utterly fantastic engine that howled and screamed like a banshee, i only co-drove with him a couple of times as he scared the absolute crap out of me every single time without fail but to be fair to him he is a very safe and controlled driver with it, apart from the time he barrel rolled at 120 mph, he walked away with just concussion and his car was reshelled and rebuilt at huge expense within 2 weeks. He went through a fair few co-drivers as he knew how far he could push his car and many a co-driver refused to sit with him because of it, on one stage of the RAC in Galloway (on a stage he knew very well) he made 9 seconds on the full works 4wd teams and reduced his experienced co-driver to an actual gibbering wreck at the end of it – his average speed over the short stage was astonishingly rapid for a rwd car. Tiz a shame but he’s sold his ABT tuned RS4 and SWB Quattro so i guess our balls-out track days are coming to a close, unless i can convince him to spend his pocket money on an Audi A3 3.2 turbo quattro so we still get our kicks as my little 200bhp Mk2 Golf just does not really cut it compared to the swb quattro, it’s still fun but it doesn’t scare you.

As some others have touched on, you can ‘get away’ with only fitting winter tyres only to the front, and drive very carefully in snow and ice.

However, when the snow has gone and you are barrelling down the M1 at 70mph and you have swerve, you try to correct the oversteer and at the point you actually broadside it might actually dawn on you that perhaps a similar amount of grip front and rear is a good idea and would give you a fighting chance. In the following moment you could either be stuffed into the barrier, or continuing on you journey smug that you have just saved a huge slide and are a driving god 😉

My wife had a crash on the dual carrige way when a truck pulled out of a lay-by without spotting her and she had to emergency brake and change lanes to miss it. The car went into momentum oversteer and after 2 or 3 good attempts to catch it she finally lost it and we parked rear first into the central barrier

This car had equal grip and still lost it, now imagine the same scenario on an A road with the car broadsiding into oncoming traffic. There is some shocking stuff on youtube if you care to look for it, a little fishtail turns into a slide, then an HGV comes through the other way and completely obliterates the car.

I had a close call myself, 15mph in traffic and not accelerating or braking. Rear tyres slide sideways into the gutter leaving me gracefully sliding across the opposite side of the road with full opposite lock, and nosing gently into the hedge. Luckily the car coming the other way was being cautious and could stop, otherwise it could have been a huge side impact for me 🙁

Bottom line is, that understeer was a much bigger problem than oversteer. Rear wheel slides were easily managed and less problematic, but also less common, since the rear’s really just following the front whereas the front’s dealing with steering and power.

Understeer doesn’t need any skill to fix, you just lift off and unless you are being an idiot the grip will come back. Oversteer needs an understanding of what is happening, your ‘average’ driver won’t realise that lifting off will make things worse and thats without all the confusing guff about ‘steering into the skid’ that gets spouted. (so the advice should be ‘steer in the direction you want to travel during oversteer’)

Most road users drive around on mixed tyres and budgets. The issues only arise if you drive too fast for the condition then said tyres are less forgiving.

People seem to think ABS/TC gives them a buy out of thinking brain ticket and drive waaay too quick in the rain for instance.

A sudden move at speed/motorway can cause ANYONE to auto over correct at any speed/condition.

If its a 30limit and snowy Id drive way below 30. 4 winter tyres would be great however it wont harm if you can only afford 2. One year I naughtily drove to Germany on skinny conti eco tyres. I didnt die or have any moments as I drove carefully. Thats key. Slow the **** down.

Your wife would have over corrected on any tyre in that situation ^

What amazes me- heavy spray/rain on the motorway c90% of drivers around me still speed/too close. As though they dont realise rain can cause similar issues to ice

Just to add – YES 4 winter tyres if you can afford but 2 to help traction as you’d be driving SLOWER if you can only afford 2.

If your car is going to slide it will start to slide anyway on snow at a certain point. If its ice- nothing will save you. Ice takes whoever it wants if you go onto black ice. If you’ve had your car slide before without snow or ice on the ground then you’ve overstepped your cars limit and should know better. No one should overstep their cars limit in normal cold/warm weather driving. If theres a sudden hazzard ahead then the micro-difference between grip is nothing as you’ll be putting sudden excessive steering input/brakes etc into this situation which over rule anything else. (All IMO of course).

One thing that will happen- winter tyre prices will go through the roof now/in the coming weeks. DONT bother with unknown brand winter tyres. Stick to good quality rubber if you can afford/keep what you have. I think Chinese/Ling Long etc budget named rubber at premium all weather tyre prices is a rip off/false economy.

Yes you can probably drive a truck through parts of my argument, hopefully not sideways though 😉

Love the annual winter tyre fight debate.

The only conclusion I have from this is that winter tyres allow you to have the same accident at a higher speed. I hadn’t realised that we should be driving everywhere at max.
Live and learn.

“The only conclusion I have from this is that winter tyres allow you to have the same accident at a higher speed. I hadn’t realised that we should be driving everywhere at max.
Live and learn. “

this.

It snowed here last wednesday – aberdeens a funny place , first snow and people forget how to drive – couple days later they drive like grannys to over compensate.

great comparison of snow vs 4 season vs summer:

Fast wind to 3 minutes in, if you CBA to watch the whole thing.

And yes, they’re snow tyres not winter tyres. Yes, its on ice.

wet braking in the cold, about 3 minutes in.

The idea of having little grip at the rear ALL THE TIME and loads at the front is ever-so-slightly odd to me. Having experience a couple of unexpected rear end slides I know I’d much rather have the front end lose grip, its a whole lot easier to control.

A lot of people have random selections of tyres bought at low cost, which means no grip anywhere, but to deliberately stick the worst tyres at the rear is a bit odd.

4 winters or bust, IMO (etc)

The only conclusion I have from this is that winter tyres allow you to have the same accident at a higher speed. I hadn’t realised that we should be driving everywhere at max.
Live and learn.

+1.

I’ve noticed a big difference with winter tyres compared to last year. I drive slower than I do in summer but I’m happy for a little extra grip in the snow and ice we’ve had already. Winter tyres are compulsory here though so it’s not like I have a choice unless I fancy a 250e fine.

For me, was cheaper to buy new wheels too as the tyres on the (what are now referred to as) summer wheels would have been almost twice as much.

The only conclusion I have from this is that winter tyres allow you to have the same accident at a higher speed.

Interesting thought process 🙄

I’ve had mine 2 years and wouldn’t be without them now, as they have enabled me to safely get to work on days I would otherwise have had a real problem.

IMO only fitting 2 tyres is very dangerous. I had mine delivered a week apart, with heavy snow in between and while it was ok to get the car moving, it was all too easy to forget (FWD in my car) that there was much less traction at the back and braking was also heavily compromised.

If you can only stretch to two winter tyres, I would suggest it is much safer and cheaper option to invest in snow socks (or similar) for the few days when the snow actually lies and you need to get going.

Largely dependent on where you live of course but for me, NE England and work shifts so travelling very early/late and ski trips to Weardale and occasionally Scotland, the winter tyre option is a no-brainer.

Its all very well saying “I don’t need winter tyres, I know how to drive my car well”. You may do, but unfortunatly, a vast proportion of the British public are idiots and can’t drive well and have no concept that they are loosely in control of a 1 ton explosive device hurtling down a public road.

Unless you can predict when the afore-mentioned idiot is going to find the black ice in front of you both and pirouette back down the road giving you the option of hitting them, or swerving between them and the small child on the pavement, then its worth going down the safest route. Unless you’re driving somewhere where NOBODY else does, then fine, you can carry on as you were.

If you can only stretch to two winter tyres, I would suggest it is much safer and cheaper option to invest in snow socks (or similar) for the few days when the snow actually lies and you need to get going.

That would seem sensible to me. Socks are a great economy way of getting a car moving out of snowed/iced up car parks etc.

Personally I don’t see 4 tyres (or winter tyres at all for that matter) as an expensive option – over a period of a few years I don’t go through any more tyres owning two sets at the same time. The tyres still do x thousand miles before getting binnned, they just take twice as much time to do it. When you look at the big picture of how much it costs to buy, maintain and run a car these days quibbling over the cost of an extra couple of tyres is laughable imo.

a vast proportion of the British public are idiots

Why hasn’t winter tyres been made compulsory here in the UK?

Imagine…everyone would STILL drive at the same speeds on snow all the time with added confidence that their ABS/TC AND SNOW tyres will keep them safe 😆

Northwind – Member
Bottom line is, that understeer was a much bigger problem than oversteer. Rear wheel slides were easily managed and less problematic, but also less common, since the rear’s really just following the front whereas the front’s dealing with steering and power.

Or in other words- no different from the motorbike, which always had a sticky tyre on the front, and the pushbikes.

I don’t think that reasoning is right, losing the front on a bike/motorbike is very difficult to correct, whereas understeer in a car is very natural for most people to correct by just lifting off the accel, or braking.

Snap oversteer caused by lifting-off mid corner, weight transfer under heavy braking or aquaplaning is very difficult to correct (and then also not over-correct and spin the other way).

Why hasn’t winter tyres been made compulsory here in the UK?

It does surprise me, seems some decisions are left to common sense. 😯

I guess if was made compulsory there would be a huge complaint from people having to shell out the cash, rather than having the choice.

Unless you can predict when the afore-mentioned idiot is going to find the black ice in front of you both and pirouette back down the road giving you the option of hitting them, or swerving between them and the small child on the pavement, then its worth going down the safest route. Unless you’re driving somewhere where NOBODY else does, then fine, you can carry on as you were.

The counter to this of course is vastly different braking performances with other cars and problems this might induce. I had an incident last year with winter tyres on where the knuckle dragger in the car behind seemed to be using my brake lights to inform him when he might like to think about slowing down for a set of roundabouts on an icy road. I started braking at the right distance from the roundabouts for my setup to be able to come to a halt smoothly but he consistently left it too late for his summer tyred car nearly slithering into the back of me twice. Fortunately the last time he completely naffed it up and swerved up onto the verge to avoid hitting me and I was able to make a little ground between us whist he sorted himself out.

Snap oversteer caused by lifting-off mid corner, weight transfer under heavy braking or DELETE is very difficult to correct

Again, you are going too fast for the conditions. Dont blame the tyres.

Aquaplaning is like ice. You literally have to go with the flow regardless.

Fortunately the last time he completely naffed it up and swerved up onto the verge to avoid hitting me and I was able to make a little ground between us whist he sorted himself out.

On summer tyres? I thought we were trying to deomonstrate that one could not control the car in winter conditions without winter tyres. 😀

Imagine…everyone would STILL drive at the same speeds on snow all the time with added confidence that their ABS/TC AND SNOW tyres will keep them safe

I’ve witnessed a sizeable number of 4×4 drivers come to grief with exactly that mindset! Although in fairness, most of them didn’t think that winter tyres were necessary either 😆

Wow, hora’s struggling with a simple concept here.

Winter tyres give MORE traction than summer tyres – fact.

Therefore, you can either go faster for the same level of control, or go the same speed and have lots more control. Or, what most people do, go somewhat faster and still have more control.

You seem really keen to twist these very simple concepts into some kind of position where you can make us all out to be stupid. I don’t really know why.

Its all very well saying “I don’t need winter tyres, I know how to drive my car well”.

I’m also pretty good at ice-skating, but I won’t be putting on a pair of football boots next time I go.

No. You take the extra traction offered by the winter tyres AND drive more carefully. This combined makes you safer in winter.

I use the traction offered to slowly/safely keep me from grinding to a halt and abandoning my car. THAT is key to me in winter. I DREAD that happening.

I don’t use the tyres to keep my progress swift.

Thats my thinking.

I’m also pretty good at ice-skating, but I won’t be putting on a pair of football boots next time I go.

ICE will screw up regardless of your tread pattern. Unless you are on studded tyres.

hora – Member

Snap oversteer caused by lifting-off mid corner, weight transfer under heavy braking or DELETE is very difficult to correct

Again, you are going too fast for the conditions. Dont blame the tyres.

Aquaplaning is like ice. You literally have to go with the flow regardless.

Point is Hora, people do make mistakes and when they do it is better to have a situation they can easily correct, than one which causes them to spin the car.

On summer tyres? I thought we were trying to deomonstrate that one could not control the car in winter conditions without winter tyres.

That would be to not understand the concept. Winter tyres do allow more directional control when loosing control is a possibility. But one of the best things about them is that they reduce braking distances in the cold – a lot! There are plenty of conditions where you could happily maintain control of a car with summer tyres on but a bit like driving on a very wet road your stopping distances get extended. In this case the driver behind was unaware that mine and his stopping distances were very different.

Point is Hora, people do make mistakes and when they do it is better to have a situation they can easily correct, than one which causes them to spin the car.

I’m with the police on this one and the cessation of the use of the word accident.
EDIT:

In this case the driver behind was unaware that mine and his stopping distances were very different.

But the other driver was able to control his car to avoid the accident even though he was on summer tyres. 😆

But the other driver was able to control his car to avoid the accident even though he was on summer tyres.

Where do you live? If that’s your idea of control, I’d rather avoid 😀

They were your words, not mine. You said, “and swerved up onto the verge to avoid hitting me” which I assume means that in spite of being brake tested he was able to avoid a collision, good bit of driving on these summer tyres. [/devil’s advocate]. 😆

Thing is no matter how careful a driver you are there are always idiots on the road. In bad conditions I’ll give the car infront LOTS of space. . Also I’ve been overtaken on a 30 to gain one cars length- thats rare but it did happen in winter. some people don’t want to waste 1 second of their time.

Or you give someone infront lots of room and you look in your mirror to see someone on your ass.

This winter you’ll see people spinning their wheels like crazy down the road!

They were your words, not mine. You said, “and swerved up onto the verge to avoid hitting me” which I assume means that in spite of being brake tested he was able to avoid a collision, good bit of driving on these summer tyres. [/devil’s advocate].

I’m afraid through the last couple of pages you have deliberately attempted to twist the concept through a lack of basic understanding on your part. Your devil’s advocate is a bit of a mentalist!

I’m afraid through the last couple of pages you have deliberately attempted to twist the concept through a lack of basic understanding on your part.

You’re telling me that driving with care is wrong? 😯

davidjones15 – Member
I’m with the police on this one and the cessation of the word accident.

What does that have to do with the bit of my quote you posted?

Mistake. And not necessarily a dig at you. Some people are just over sensitive on here.

which I assume means that in spite of being brake tested he was able to avoid a collision [edit]by driving up a bank[/edit], good bit of driving on these summer tyres.

You telling me that driving up a bank is in control and with care? 😯

If it avoids hitting the twunt in front who’s brake testing me, yes. Personally I’d have given you a bit more distance.

davidjones15 – Member

Mistake. And not necessarily a dig at you. Some people are just over sensitive on here.

Sorry I didn’t mean to sound as aggressive as it does reading it back.

You take the extra traction offered by the winter tyres AND drive more carefully. This combined makes you safer in winter

That’s what I said.

I use the traction offered to slowly/safely keep me from grinding to a halt and abandoning my car.

Quite, and this is easier with more traction, isn’t it? It’s both easier and quicker.

ICE will screw up regardless of your tread pattern. Unless you are on studded tyres

It’s not just the tread pattern, it’s the compound. Winter tyres are better on ice.

This thread has a new villain 🙂

I’ve got winter tyres AND central heating, do I win?

to the OP, fit what you like, someone in front of you will mess up on the frost and jam the road anyway…

who’s brake testing me

Sorry, I’m being a bit thick – what does “brake testing me” mean?

For context – driving at 30mph on a 40mph limit road due to really icy nature of road. About 50-60m to the roundabout I apply the brake gently to come to a halt in a straight line in time for the roundabout. For my brakes & tyres and for that particular road condition that was a nice gentle but not over cautious approach. With my summer tyres on I’d have started braking about 15m sooner to remain safe.

Is this the mythical “brake testing me” of which you speak? Does that make me a “twunt”? I have little control over how close the car behind drives or when he chooses to start braking. What would you have done differently oh great oracle?