• This topic has 170 replies, 63 voices, and was last updated 11 years ago by sbob.
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  • Winter car tyres – sorry
  • robh
    Full Member

    Wonder what insurance would say if you had an accident and had winter tyres on the front of a FWD car only?

    convert
    Full Member

    I’d be interested to see if insurance companies used mixed winter and summer tyres for “wriggle room” in an accident that involved loss of control etc.

    As an aside, insurance companies used to get a bit sniffy about winter tyres labelling them a modification – some even tried to charge more for having them on the car. Situation seems to have improved. Our car (can’t believe I’m admitting this on a blokey internet forum) is insured through Sheila’s wheels (wife is main driver, though it was bloody embarrasing when exchanging insurance details when she was not in the car!) and they now send out a winter email with advise as to how to stay safe in winter conditions (how to regain control in a slide, how to descend a steep icey slope – basic but quite good I thought) and they now recommend drivers consider switching to them for the colder months.

    pennine
    Free Member

    Changing car so have a set of 4 for sale – Leeds/Bradford area

    Hankook W310 205/55 R16 – £100 5,000 miles only (no offers)

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    thegreatape
    Free Member

    Pirelli Snowcontrol’s on both my (FWD) cars and they have lasted the last 3 winters.

    I drive a variety of cars for work including 4×4’s and for snow/ice/cold I would choose my cars on winter tyres over the 4×4’s on normal tyres.

    thegreatape
    Free Member

    And here’s a video of a winter tyre test

    http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/sports-car-winter-tyre-test

    *jealous*

    robinlaidlaw
    Free Member

    All tyres should be like winter tyres all year round but they would wear out too fast so standard tyres are a compromise between grip and durability.

    I don’t entirely agree with that, my experience of winter tyres in warmer weather is that they are too flexible and the car becomes unstable in emergency lane change manouvers that wouldn’t unsettle it on summer tyres.
    My wife had a crash on the dual carrige way when a truck pulled out of a lay-by without spotting her and she had to emergency brake and change lanes to miss it. The car went into momentum oversteer and after 2 or 3 good attempts to catch it she finally lost it and we parked rear first into the central barrier (I was in the passenger seat). Nothing serious in the end, no-one hurt and didn’t hit any other cars but it was a pretty big one and could have been properly messy. This was as the weather was begining to warm up again in the spring and the car was still on winter tyres. I’ve driven the car (a Forester) on the winters and on normal tyres and that instability is only there on winter tyres in warmer weather. I’ve noted the same thing with both of my last two cars, as the weather warms up they start to feel nasty on winter tyres in a way that they didn’t in the cold weather. It’s how I know it’s time to swap the tyres on my car (a BM 530d FWIW), it starts to want to swap ends very easily on the summers as it gets cold and then again on the winers as it gets warm.
    Obviously your experiences may vary dependent on the cars and tyres concerned.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    How warm was it?

    jam-bo
    Full Member

    My wife had a crash on the dual carrige way when a truck pulled out of a lay-by without spotting her and she had to emergency brake and change lanes to miss it.

    Sounds like user error to me…

    robinlaidlaw
    Free Member

    Hmm, maybe 12 deg C and a slightly damp surface. It feels fine at this time of year and it feels fine on summer tyres when it’s warm. I think the flexible design of the tread and soft rubber just allows the tread blocks all to shuffle and the whole thing just takes on a massive slip angle. It was a proper tank slapper too at about 60, swung to about 45 degrees each way across both lanes (no other cars around fortunately) before going all the way round and off backwards to the right. Ended up hitting the barrier fairly gently and we were able to drive it out and stop in a lay-by to swap out a bent wheel (from mounting the kerb sideways / backwards at the end) before finishing our journey. Wouldn’t like to do it again, that’s for sure.

    maccruiskeen
    Full Member

    How warm was it?

    probably overly simplified but 7 degrees tends to be the magic number

    however in the UK the average temp in the sort of areas where most of the population lives only drops below 7 degrees for a few weeks each year – but how do you guess which weeks those will be, I was driving in minus temps in late august this year. Thats why we don’t have legislation for winter tyres, our climate doesn’t warrant it. Most winters, on most journeys on any given day you could drive in temps that are well above and well below 7 degs

    robinlaidlaw
    Free Member

    Sounds like user error to me…

    Not perfect driving from my wife in as much as it would have been possible to make the manouver without that happening but it’s the sort of manouver many, many normal drivers end up having to make and it wasn’t terrible driving by any stretch. The truck driver stopped to apologise and help, to put it into context. It certainly wasn’t all my wife’s fault.
    Very few people would catch such a big slide the very first time they had it happen to them. I was lucky enough to spin harmlessly a few times in my foolish youth on quiet roads and car parks and am now reasonably handy at catching these kind of slides but it took a good bit of practise and I still wouldn’t have given myself more than 50/50 I’d have held onto the back end that day.

    cb
    Full Member

    Having only glanced at many of the replies (the driving heroes were getting too hormonal for me) one thing to bear in mind is what’s recommended by the manufacturer. We have a Seat and it clearly states in the handbook that the owner should replace all 4 tyres with winters rather than two (FWD car). I have no interest in arguing the merits of either options – just something the OP (remember him?) might like to consider.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    however in the UK the average temp in the sort of areas where most of the population lives only drops below 7 degrees for a few weeks each year

    Average maybe, but an awful lot of people are out and about driving at 7-8am when it’s the coldest part of the day. It’s frequently below 7 degrees then, and often quite a long way below.

    maccruiskeen
    Full Member

    Average maybe, but an awful lot of people are out and about driving at 7-8am when it’s the coldest part of the day. It’s frequently below 7 degrees then, and often quite a long way below.

    absolutely

    Northwind
    Full Member

    Average temps… The “cold conditions” light on my car comes on at 5 degrees and there’s only been one drive in the last month where it hasn’t been on for the bulk of the drive. Sure the average will be skewed because of the population spread but that doesn’t mean anything for anyone who lives further north. If I was a southern city dweller I’d not fit snow tyres- not even sure I’d have a car!

    FuzzyWuzzy – Member

    Are winter tyres OK to use when it gets milder – they just wear faster? Or is max speed restricted as well and MPG adversely affected?

    Tyres vary tbh. I drove all summer on my Icebears on the Focus, they were great. Noisier than normal tyres, and probably a little less efficient, but still much better than a cheap allrounder tyre. Very little downside. Wear rate was reasonable too, not great but within spec for a midprice tyre. But that’s obviously not a high performance car.

    I only did a little warm road driving with the snowproxes and they worked extremely well- again, not as good as a similiar priced/quality summer tyre but more than acceptable. But then they’re expensive and I suspect they’re not lasting as well as the cheaper Icebears. To be fair the new car asks a lot more of them so it’s not a totally fair comparison!

    Worth mentioning they also work well in summer when faced with bad standing water or mud- which I found pretty useful at some mountain bike venues.

    qwerty
    Free Member

    I’m currently looking at these snow rated all season tyres http://www.klebertyres.co.uk/KleberUK/front/affich.jsp?&lang=EN&codeRubrique=30032005121111

    jp-t853
    Full Member

    qwerty – Member

    I’m currently looking at these snow rated all season tyres http://www.klebertyres.co.uk/KleberUK/front/affich.jsp?&lang=EN&codeRubrique=30032005121111

    I use Hankook Optimo 4s which are very similar to the Klebers and they are a great all round tyre. The snow performance is on a par with cheaper winter tyres and they are great all year in wet conditions. Mine have done over 30,000 miles.

    wurzelcube
    Free Member

    From personal experience I would recommend not mixing winter and normal tyres.

    Last year I fitted snow socks to the rear of my RWD car, got to a roundabout and almost hit another car as couldn’t turn or stop (got out and fitted the extra pair to the front) So I imagine the same will happen with winter tyres on only one axle. Also – IIRC the speed ratings are usually lower for winter tyres, not sure what the insurance company’s view is on mixed speed ratings / and potentially load indexes.

    I have put a full set of Dunlop Wintersports 4D on the car this winter; whilst I’ve not had any snow yet there is no doubt they provide significantly more grip in wet / cold / icy conditions and stopping distances feel like they are reduced.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    wurzelcube – Member

    Last year I fitted snow socks to the rear of my RWD car, got to a roundabout and almost hit another car as couldn’t turn or stop (got out and fitted the extra pair to the front) So I imagine the same will happen with winter tyres on only one axle.

    With RWD, sure, but what you describe is just what happens if you’ve got no grip on the most important wheels. You added grip to go but none to stop and turn so no wonder you had problems.

    Speed ratings is an absolute nonissue unless you somehow find something that’s not rated for 70mph. There’s no problem with mixing ratings. If you need a reinforced tyre then the same applies for winter tyres but they’re easily available.

    bails
    Full Member

    Last year I fitted snow socks to the rear of my RWD car, got to a roundabout and almost hit another car as couldn’t turn or stop

    Couldn’t turn or stop because the front wheels didn’t have any grip, or because the back wheels had snow socks on?

    davidjones15
    Free Member

    Couldn’t turn or stop because the front wheels didn’t have any grip, or because the back wheels had snow socks on?

    Because he was driving too fast for the conditions. 😆
    Wunundred.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Well the nice thing about winter tyres is that you can drive much more quickly without going too fast for the conditions.. I’d have thought that was obvious.

    Takes a long time to do a 30 mile trip at 10mph, it’s much easier at 30mph.

    davidjones15
    Free Member

    😆
    I feel a lot more comfortable doing 110 on the motorways now. Thanks.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    You’re a bell-end.

    wurzelcube
    Free Member

    Maybe 15mph was too fast… but 18″ low profile summer tyres on snow / ice provide very little grip.

    Front tyres are important but I would argue the rears are just as important. It’s personal opinion / preference. I’ve read many articles stating new tyres should always be fitted to the rear to minimlise the risk of oversteer – i.e. put the best grip on the back.

    To repeat it is personal opinion and I’m not saying thay my opinion is the right one.

    davidjones15
    Free Member

    You’re reported. 😆

    Northwind
    Full Member

    wurzelcube – Member

    I’ve read many articles stating new tyres should always be fitted to the rear to minimlise the risk of oversteer – i.e. put the best grip on the back.

    I’ve read that too but it doesn’t make any sense to me. Current car came with terrible tyres fitted on both ends, and was a liability- had to be babied everywhere when it was wet, and could slide at either end without very much provocation (heavy, reasonably powerful car which didn’t help). But losing the front could be a big deal while losing the rear just meant a little bit of corrective steer.

    So, I replaced the fronts so it would actually go round corners, but left the rears til I’d found out if it was a keeper. And sure, the rears would still slide if allowed to but it transformed the car.

    Got the rears replaced, but for various reasons moved the horrible Autogrips to the front first. Terrible. Cornering was poor, braking was poor, power delivery was shocking (spin up in 4th gear? It’s just a mondeo ffs!)

    Bottom line is, that understeer was a much bigger problem than oversteer. Rear wheel slides were easily managed and less problematic, but also less common, since the rear’s really just following the front whereas the front’s dealing with steering and power.

    Or in other words- no different from the motorbike, which always had a sticky tyre on the front, and the pushbikes.

    mmannerr
    Full Member

    Funny, we have similar discussion every winter (where to put better tyres) here in F**land as well… discussions tend to get nasty in page or two.

    The safety agencies usually recommended to put better tyres on the rear axle as worse tires on front axle will not be noticed and it is beyond most drivers skills to correct the unexpected rear end slides.
    BTW, it is illegal here to have mixed set of winter and summer tyres on.

    firestarter
    Free Member

    Well just had the call to cancel my order despite me checking on the phone they could get them prior to ordering looks like its back to searching 🙁

    Inbred456
    Free Member

    These are the Sava Adapto HP’s I got a month ago for 60 quid each from mytyres. They are now selling for over 80 quid each. If you think you need some tyres get them now.

    Mytyres are usually the cheapest but I have used tyrewizard in the past for some Lassa Snoways ERA’s in the past, great in the snow but not great at dispersing water as the snow melts and very soft.

    firestarter
    Free Member

    Sorted , mytyres to the rescue 😉

    hora
    Free Member

    Some crap talked about the need for FOUR winter tyres.

    If the rear overtakes your front you are going to fast for the conditions and/or you are on ICE.

    Winter tyres help with traction so you wont get stuck.

    Going back to the first point slow down and apply smooth throttle and stering input. Drive the same style all year round and the best winter tyres will kill you just as quick.

    I have two (front only). The rear are quality Conti’s.

    Ive read the 4 v 2×2 arguments. I personally think driving style is more key and at somepoint youll have to counter steer. If your rear steps out at 30mph on snow you shouldnt be driving at 30..

    druidh
    Free Member

    But the point is that with 4 winter tyres it wouldn’t have stepped out at 30.

    I can’t believe that it’s so difficult to grasp the concept that 2 winter tyres are better than none and that 4 are better than 2. It can only come down to an interpretation of “value” – is it worth buying another two winter tyres. We’re talking in the region of what – another £150-200?? For the added level of safety at limited speed or the ability to go faster with a similar level of safety as two tyres, is it worth it?

    jam-bo
    Full Member

    I bought two new tyres today. They weren’t winter tyres as it’ll be warm again by Friday.

    nealglover
    Free Member

    Average maximum temperatures in England over winter are

    December 7.2
    January 6.9
    February 7.2

    Average minimums are

    December 1.3
    January 1.6
    February 1.1

    Plenty cold enough for winter tyres over those three months. I would say.

    landcruiser
    Free Member

    Just put some Yokohama W Drive tyres on my Vito… Only done a couple of journeys so far… However, it has been cold and icy. very impressed ! The same run in the car on Conti sport contacts,had my DSC ..and obvious huge skill having to intervene constantly.

    ir_bandito
    Free Member

    is it worth buying another two winter tyres

    if you can afford it, and you you have a crash that could have been avoided by better tyres, and someone gets hurt, then yes.

    as a firm believer in sod’s law, that’s why i bought 4.

    CaptainSlow
    Full Member

    If you’re going to keep your car for 2+ years, I really don’t understand the brain ache of whether to fit winter tyres or the 2 v 4 tyre / cheap tyre v expensive tyre debates on here.

    You’d happily spunk way more than a set of tyres on a push bike and you’re talking about saving cash on one of the most important parts on a car..

    By nice shiny black ones is my advise to the OP. Conti’s winter contacts, Goodyear UGs and the Alpins do well in the reviews. Buy 4.

    somafunk
    Full Member

    Ah well that’s the beauty of an internet forum where everyone can offer their opinion – some folk will be right, some folk will be wrong and the truth will be blurred in the middle as us bystanders look on and shake their heads in wonder at the theories put forward.

    On a fwd car it is immeasurably easier to control understeer than it is to correct oversteer – simple fact of physics, and it is a given to fit the best tyres on the rear.

    I can comfortably hold or manage a fwd drive car using lift off oversteer on the track or induced oversteer if you prefer to call it so. In my MK2 golf i can induce it at 90mph with a gentle flick of the wheel or a dab using rear brake bias and for your average driver to safely correct it on the public highway would take balls the size of watermelons as it is the most unnatural correction in the world as you need to floor the throttle, this will help pull you out of the rear wheel slide whilst reducing the steering angle at the front (straighten up) but whilst you are doing this your car is travelling sideways along the public highway and the last time i looked there is only about 24ft of width on your average A class road, anyone who says they would prefer this to fwd understeer on public roads is a far better driver than myself and i would like some lessons asap please.

    Below is copied from one of the better trackday coaching sessions but you will get taught exactly the same principle and theory at any track driving school in the country, In the past 10 years I’ve logged over 300hrs track time in various cars from my tuned to the bollox VW’s (250bhp+ fwd of course) to RS4’s, Lotus Exiges, Subaru tarmac spec, BDA MK2 Escorts, Alfa 75’s, Lancia Delta Integrale’s and quite a fair few various fwd hot hatches from most of the major manufacturers, i’ve driven at Knockhill, Curby, Brands Hatch, Cadwell, Mallory, Donnington, Silverstone, Nurburgring to name a few circuits off hand.

    A question was asked by a forum poster about how he got into a spin, in a front wheel drive car on a roundabout at low speed and what he could have done to correct it.

    A few points.

    Oversteer only happens if you have less grip (for your requirement) at the rear of the car than the front.
    Your requirement for grip is not the same throughout a corner, you generally need more front end grip on turn-in, equal grip on early entry and slightly more rear grip as you get fully into the corner.
    The ratio of grip is not constant, when you accelerate it goes rearward, when you lift off it goes forward, when you brake it goes further forward still. This is irrepective of FWD/RWD/4WD.
    If, by these actions, you move grip forward, you therefore take grip away from the rear.
    Grip (traction) needs to be shared between cornering and acceleration on the driven wheels, the more you use for acceleration, the less you have available for cornering.

    In the example above I am almost certain the reason for the oversteer was lifting off mid-roundabout. Moving more grip forward and taking it from the rear. It is possible to correct the oversteer with steering alone but you need to recognise the overtsteer very early and be pretty quick with the correction. In FWD or RWD you can add a little power and this will help correct the oversteer (in conjunction with the steering correction). In RWD this assumes you have not created the oversteer by excess power through the rear tyres and have created wheelspin. This works because adding a little power will move weight (grip) to the rear of the car.

    If you add too much power in RWD you will create wheelspin, if you are in oversteer already this is hard to “catch” so your power application needs to be fairly mild.

    In FWD, because the rear (skidding) tyres do not receive power you can add lots of power, adding weight and grip to the rear and negating oversteer. This also “pulls” the car out of oversteer. If you really get sideways you can prevent a spin by putting maximum power through the front tyres, causing them to lose traction and wheelspin thus they are skidding at the same or greater rate than the rear, so for a moment the car travels sideways, grip eventually return to the rear (as the car is gradually slowing) and the car gets pulled out of the oversteer.

    If you are driving through a fairly shallow bend and hit a patch of slippy road surface the worse thing you can do is lift off the gas but this is the natural reaction of almost every driver and is the main cause of spins. If you keep your throttle foot where it is and correct with the steering you won’t spin.

    So…to recap for those who can’t be arsed to read and consider themselves to be supreme driving gods and think the correct place to fit the grippiest tyres is on the front please read the following simple sentence.

    FWD understeer is relatively easily controlled for just about any skill level of driver
    FWD oversteer is harder to control on the public highway (nigh impossible) and will most likely involve you travelling backwards down the road into the path of an oncoming truck but that’s perfectly acceptable as long as you only kill yourself thus removing your faulty genes from the human gene pool.

    I’m correct on this matter, this is not open for debate in any shape nor form whatsoever.

    Good night and drive safe.

    😉

    Gary_C
    Full Member

    somafunk, you’ve driven a BDA Mk2 Escort ? You jammy git !! 😉

    You can keep all the other cars, but a BDA was ( still is ) on my driving ‘wish list’. I suppose owning a couple of Mk2 RS2000’s in my younger years & being an avid rally follower has something to do with it.

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