Easy to blame W8, but it’s mostly just the UI that changed.

to something that is non-intuitive on a laptop/PC as well as massively unhelpful to any sort of power user.

Keep metro for the numpties but provide the start menu or something with similar power for regular users.

Why do I want that dumbed down, simpleton interface on my PC with all its graphics power ?

Plus that is really a BS statement about it mostly being the UI that has changed – try googling WinRT for a start.

Right click on the app in the start menu (this is W7 we are talking about aren’t we?) and there’s pin to start menu and pin to taskbar.

Why do I want that dumbed down, simpleton interface

How is it more dumbed down than a list of your apps?

I don’t see it as different. It’s just a big list of your apps that goes sideways instead of a small one that goes up and down.

Keep metro for the numpties but provide the start menu or something with similar power for regular users

For power users just press Win-W and type what you want to do e.g. ‘add printer’. Way faster than any other method and I no longer bother about trying to guess where to find things like ‘windows update history’.

The rest of the time I paddle around in Metro

How is it more dumbed down than a list of your apps?

because certain installations have an awful lots of apps under them, which I could access through hierarchical menus – there’s no equivalent of that now.

I still think the shortcuts in the start bar thing was better in XP, as W7 chooses what to add

Far faster just to type what you want in the Run box than mess about with menus and links. Eg, if I wanted to launch Notepad I’d hit the Windows key, start typing “not” by which time Notepad has auto-completed in the menu and I just hit Enter.

I must say, somewhat amused by people complaing about lack of features for power users when they don’t know where the power user features are. Not really power user are you? 😉

Not meaning to sound harsh mind, just teasing 🙂

molgrips – exactly what was the problem?

Laptop wouldn’t find the printer, not by wifi or usb. Normally I could rattle through the various possible causes but in W8 I couldn’t find how to access stuff that should’ve been obvious. I know the answer is: learn to use the interface, but I was just helping someone perform a task that ought to have been intuitive – and it was anything but.

Got it working in the end. W8 recognises death threats.

Windows 8 has improved some things but the main UI in general is much worse. Sure some of it is getting used to a new way of doing things but I can’t see how having to learn a crap load of shortcuts or blunder about several menus deep to find something is intuitive. Metro is great if you have a touchscreen (preferably a tablet as I’m still far from convinced by touchscreen monitors…) otherwise it’s better off on a Leapfrog device and give adults back the desktop as a default (I know it’s only a Windows key away but Metro is a pointless system resource-consuming annoyance).

You think that’s bad, they’ve stuck Metro on Windows Server 2012 too.

Maybe they’re trying to boost sales of Core.

Personally I’m interested in doing stuff on the machine, not learning how to find my way round the latest OS GUI. For a long time windows upgrades fixed missing features or added useful stuff, but since XP, I think it’s just been change for the sake of having something different to sell – most of the changes have been just moving the UI about rather than adding any real functionality.

Far faster just to type what you want in the Run box than mess about with menus and links. Eg, if I wanted to launch Notepad I’d hit the Windows key, start typing “not” by which time Notepad has auto-completed in the menu and I just hit Enter.

Notepad! That went out with the Arc – try Notepad++, a way better app.

I take your point about moving things around, it’s a constant pain when you’re swapping between OSes a lot (like I have to do at work). But really, the W7 search is so powerful that you don’t actually need to know where anything is.

I use Notepad++, but for the purposes of an example it would’ve confused matters.

I couldn’t find how to access stuff that should’ve been obvious

that’s the point – it is non-obvious – you shouldn’t need to read a manual and learn a load of keyboard shortcuts – that is as bad as going back to using something like wordperfect.

Xerox did all that research on UIs and Apple, Next and MS have benefited from it ever since, but MS somehow think that they know better, having already failed to reinvent the UI with Bob.

What is the point of running a big usability lab, which I assume they do to copy Apple, and then ignoring them, which they clearly must have done in deciding that Metro was the way forward for anyone who doesn’t just want to access email, facebook and twitter as quickly as possible.

I am glad that I never wasted my time reading any of MS user interface guideline books…

Normally I could rattle through the various possible causes

Isn’t control panel the same?

since XP, I think it’s just been change for the sake of having something different to sell

No, the UI configuration stuff is WAY better from Vista onwards than it was in XP. Win 95 was a step towards making it easy for everyday folk to fix their computer, XP was about half way, Vista/7 is basically there. With XP you had to know how to do technical things and ignore the user friendly stuff, if you didn’t know the technical side then the user friendly stuff only took you half way. Dogs breakfast.

Personally I’m interested in doing stuff on the machine

A candidate for Linux then.

Anyway the point about metro is that it can allow developers to make simple apps really easily. They’ve learned from Apple, Android and even Google Chrome apps that people want to use and create simple utilities to do what they need. It’s fiendishly difficult to create Windows apps.

Of course, proper integrated Java support would have done a similar job!

But really, the W7 search is so powerful that you don’t actually need to know where anything is.

I never use file search on Windows, I organise everything meticulously in a folder structure I’ve been using for years and so instinctively know where everything I want is located. I wouldn’t even know how to start a search in W7!

No, the UI configuration stuff is WAY better from Vista onwards than it was in XP

We’ll have to disagree on that. Vista was a great step backwards from XP in UI and especially processor overhead of running the UI, all that ridiculous aero nonsense which didn’t add any real value.

Personally I run XP (under parallels) at home as my Windows OS of choice. At work, I run W7 as that’s what the company standard is.

What is the point of running a big usability lab, which I assume they do to copy Apple, and then ignoring them, which they clearly must have done

Lol.. sure, you know best, obviously!

it is non-obvious – you shouldn’t need to read a manual and learn a load of keyboard shortcuts – that is as bad as going back to using something like wordperfect

Lol.. hardly.. and for the record, I found it pretty obvious. Type what you want, stuff comes up. Complex isn’t it?

Cougar – Notepad++, now THERE’s an app with a shit UI if there ever was one. Take all the conventions about shortcuts and menus and chuck them all out of the window. Then don’t change anything for 20 years and voila.

Vista was a great step backwards from XP in UI and especially processor overhead of running the UI

I’m not saying the UI was better, I’m saying that configuring it via GUI, wizard etc as opposed to command-line or detailed config dialogs was much better.

I wouldn’t even know how to start a search in W7!

Press the windows key and type. Don’t blame windows just cos you don’t know how to use it. It’s extremely easy, you just have to forget what you used to know.

It’s fiendishly difficult to create Windows apps.

no more difficult than Java apps – C# is a big rip off of Java, which some extra good bits thrown in plus.

WinRT programming encourages using decent languages again though, like C++ 🙂

Of course, proper integrated Java support would have done a similar job!

Yeah, they tried that years ago and got antitrusted by Oracle.

I never use file search on Windows, I organise everything meticulously in a folder structure I’ve been using for years and so instinctively know where everything I want is located. I wouldn’t even know how to start a search in W7!

I’ve just told you. Press the Windows key. Start typing.

And I’m not talking about files (though they work too) I’m talking about commands, applications, stuff you’re bemoaning that you can’t find.

no more difficult than Java apps

Really? Visual C++? It was a nightmare last time I tried.

decent languages again though, like C++

Well that explains a lot. Please, just switch to Linux. It’s your rightful home.

The whole ‘type what you want’ thing is bullcrap and why the whole Powershell thing annoys me to. If you want to type shit rather than click something then use Linux and timewarp back to the 70’s :p And yeah Windows 2012 is ridiculous having the metro interface, compelte waste of time and rather than do a decent remote shell and take one of the only decent things Linux has going for it they come up with a horrible Core + Powershell abortion.

Cougar – Notepad++, now THERE’s an app with a shit UI if there ever was one.

True – but at least it doesn’t change every 3 years, so you just learn it once and then keep using it.

It’s fiendishly difficult to create Windows apps.

Possibly create complex ones is hard, but I can build basic Apps using Visual Studio and I know bugger all about Windows programming. NB Getting DLLs to work across all versions is a right pain – the whole managed / unmanaged code thing is far from simple and took me ages to fathom.

If you want to type shit rather than click something then use Linux and timewarp back to the 70’s

I guarantee – absolutely guarantee that I’m faster with a keyboard “typing shit” than you are with a mouse clicking about the place. And that’s not me boasting, it’s the interface method; it’s just quicker.

The mouse is a great selection tool, but a bobbins primary input method if you want to actually get anything done.

Getting DLLs to work across all versions is a right pain – the whole managed / unmanaged code thing is far from simple and took me ages to fathom

So you admit it’s complex then? Metro does away with that, since you can install a metro runtime on anything (theoretically). Maybe they could come up with a slogan for that, something like “write once, run anywhere” perhaps.

If you want to type shit rather than click something then use Linux

Lol yeah.. cos it’s exactly the same thing isn’t it? find * . | grep ‘my document’ it’s so intuitive!

I guarantee – absolutely guarantee that I’m faster with a keyboard “typing shit” than you are with a mouse clicking about the place.

+1

I’d like a decent BASH interface for Windows, that would be my ideal scenario…..

Cygwin?

Depends what you’re doing – I can guarantee (italics not required…) I can click on my Word taskbar shortcut faster than you can open the run box and start typing it…
Sure for stuff that’s not used very often and buried down in the UI then run + type is quicker, provided you remember the app name :p But how often does the typical user do more than open a browser, email, Word, Excel and Explorer? All of which fit nicely on my taskbar (along with RDP client). It’s one of my beefs with Powershell to – need to do something frequently then for sure script it but trying to make Powershell the default method of doing basically anything is stupid.

So you admit it’s complex then?

Stand alone DLLs is much harder than just building a .exe which Visual Studio just sorts for you.

As for complex, it’s all relative eg I’d say it’s much easier than compiling stuff on linux using GCC and Build…..

Type what you want, stuff comes up. Complex isn’t it?

So you can remember the name of every single application, including system application, that comprises Windows?

The whole point of UI and menuing systems was that you group things together as visual prompts – so if I know I want to do some administrative, I choose the administration menu, and am then presented with around 7 or 8 categories, to prompt me further to the correct area.

Really? Visual C++? It was a nightmare last time I tried.

And which Java environments are any better?

It is actually a pretty decent environment now, the whole dev environment and language is heavily influenced by Delphi, mainly as they poached the main man from Borland.

Well that explains a lot

Different tools for different jobs – if I want to write something sluggish and enterprise level I might choose Java, but if I want to write fast, efficient servers then I would choose C++.

I can program Java, C#, C and C++, but forcing me anywhere near Excel and monstrosities of languages like VB and VBA is enough to make me leave jobs.

Stand alone DLLs is much harder than just building a .exe which Visual Studio just sorts for you.

Visual Studio just builds DLLs as well, not much difference really.

I can guarantee (italics not required…) I can click on my Word taskbar shortcut faster than you can open the run box and start typing it…

I’ll bet you can’t. If you can get to a taskbar icon with a mouse faster than I can press the Windows key and the corresponding number for that taskbar icon, I’ll delete my STW account.

how often does the typical user do more than open a browser, email, Word, Excel and Explorer?

Well sure, but we’re comparing apples and oranges. For a ‘typical’ user the UI doesn’t have to be efficient, it has to be simple. Hence, Windows 8 and Metro. I’m not a typical user.

trying to make Powershell the default method of doing basically anything is stupid.

Can you give me an example?

but forcing me anywhere near Excel and monstrosities of languages like VB and VBA is enough to make me leave jobs.

I never really get why people don’t like VB. VBA has been left behind, so lacks a lot of OO features, but VB is functionally equivalent to C# in the Microsoft Visual Studio world, just a different syntax.

Cougar has it I’m afraid. When you type with both hands without looking it is way faster to make three or four key presses than to move a mouse to a spot one screen and click. This might also be the point of metro where it’s designed to work with a touch screen more than a mouse.

And VBA rocks – at what it does

So you can remember the name of every single application, including system application, that comprises Windows?

Do you need to?

I want to do something with, say, my network card but can’t remember the exact applet name. Hit Win and type “network” and if offers me “Network,” “Network and Sharing Center,” “Find and fix network problems” and others I can’t be bothered to type out. Alternatively I can do what you suggest, after getting as far as typing “adm” I’m offered Administrative Tools.

I don’t understand why there’s such resistance to this way of working other than “change is bad.” It’s a paradigm shift in usability compared to XP.

I never really get why people don’t like VB

Good god. It’s cos it’s weakly typed and terribly organised.

The whole point of UI and menuing systems was that you group things together as visual prompts

It has that too!

The only downside though is when you have to work with machines with lots of different languages. At least when you knew the icons you could largely get by

Good god. It’s cos it’s weakly typed

I’ve never really understood what people mean by that.

To quote Eric Lippert (ex-MS coder):

The differences between the C# and VB type systems are few, particularly since the addition of ‘dynamic’ to C# 4.0. Both C# and VB use the CLR type system, in which every object knows its own type, and in which illegal type conversions are detected by the runtime (either when the code runs or when it is passed through the verifier) and turned into exceptions. Both have single inheritance for classes and multiple inheritance for interfaces. Both make a distinction between value types and reference types. And so on.

I never really get why people don’t like VB. VBA has been left behind, so lacks a lot of OO features, but VB is functionally equivalent to C# in the Microsoft Visual Studio world, just a different syntax.

It well may be similar now but prior to .NET it was awful – and there was such a change to VB.NET I don’t know why MS bothered, just let those VB programers learn a new, decent, language.

I have a large degree of distrust of VB and people happy to program in VB from the old days – I have programmed in decent variants of basic before, like Fast Basic on the Atari, but VB was just a bastardized version of basic and it was somewhat shocking to see how backward that whole environment was – all part of the usual thing of MS holding everyone back by producing rubbish – and they didn’t even write VB, they had to buy it in!

The guy who used to write a series of books called HardCore VB gave up after being shown Delphi and realizing what a heap of junk language VB was – seeing a big contrast between how hard it was to do anything complex in VB versus they help the Delphi system gave you.

Plus there is that whole VARIANT rubbish – basically it is just too distasteful for consideration for anything serious…

I’ve never really understood what people mean by that.

so we leave all the error checking until runtime and when it is in production – that’s always a good option.

If a language is strongly typed the compiler checks most of the type conversions for you. and you can actually program to make use of it.

It is one of the reasons that Generics were pretty much top of the list of requests for Java, so you didn’t have to treat everything as untyped objects – not that it really that much of a problem to put typed interfaces over the untyped collections, which is what generics does anyway – with syntactic sugar.

And C++ now has user-defined literals, allows numbers to be specified with units, and so you can’t do invalid maths were the combination of units do not make sense.