As regular viewers may be aware, my mum passed away last month. I’m executor of the will (technically alongside her solicitor) and sole beneficiary. It’s not a complex estate, no loans / credit / investments etc., there’s the house and a bank account and that’s it.

I’ve done the rounds cancelling things. Most have gone smoothly aside from (I know, I was shocked too) the councils. The local council has sent me her council tax bill and the county council is chasing me for payment for the “care” she received between hospital visits.

Is this right? I cannot fathom how I’m liable here. Debts from the deceased don’t transfer to family as far as I’m aware, and it’s not my house. It will be next year sometime after everything clears probate, but until then it’s still my mum’s and her bank account has been frozen.

I’m going to ring them but, ahead of that, does anyone have any insights or experience here?

Sorry for your loss.

Are they chasing you specifically, or are they chasing the estate via you as the executor?

Thank you.

Me by name. Presumably via the “tell us once” service.

Me by name

Might just be a standard ploy to see if you pay up.

I guess they don’t really care who actually pays, they just want the money…..

I think they will be chasing you in your capacity as executor not as son.  If there is a debt the liability remains with the estate does it not?

I think they will be chasing you in your capacity as executor not as son.

So they can go bill her solicitor then. 😁

The estate is liable – you’re in charge of the estate. You’re not personally liable for any debts, as in they don’t come out of your pocket, but you are in charge of ensuring the estate is handled properly and paying debts is part of that duty.

So they can go bill her solicitor then.

THe solicitor will happliy handle it – and take a big scoop on top out of your inheritance for their billable time and effort.

I’m in a simmilar situation, council chasing me as executor for a bout 4k in care fees…

I have a solicitor doing the admin, and that fee will come out of the estate. Probate was only granted last week so they will just have to wait until the solicitor pays all of the estate expences, which will be som time during the next 6 months.

Solicitors almost always wait 6 months before distribution to beneficiaries to protect thier own back against claims against the estate, and to settle any money owed by the deceaced, in this case, care bills. 6 months is deemed a reasonable time for any unknown creditors to stake thier claim.

In short, don’t worry about it… inform the solicitor dealing with it and maybe call the council and tell them that you are still awaiting/in the process of probate so they will just have to wait untill the solicitor releases funds to creditors.

It’s the estate that is liable for the bill, not you, although as executor you are responsible for seeing it dealt with.

You’d only become personaly liable in your capacity as executor if you wrapped up the estate and didn’t ensure the debts to the estate were paid.

Note, you’ll probably also get a ‘demand’ for a portion of her State Pension (and any other pensions) returned for any days that’ve been ‘overpaid’.

OK.

The solicitor and I are named as joint executors. They advised that they can handle probate (and nothing else) for a four-figure fee or let me do it for a three-figure fee which I find somewhat perverse. I’m doing the latter but thus far haven’t told them this.

Update: I’ve spoken with both councils.

Council tax were uncharacteristically helpful. She sounded surprised that probate hadn’t been completed (I said “I haven’t even started the process yet, she’s practically still warm”), apologised that it was a mistake and that there’s some sort of exemption they can hang on it. So that’s theoretically sorted.

The care fees, she’s agreed I’m not liable and she’s going to email their Finance team to explain that it’ll have to wait till probate is completed. There’s chunks of the charge which I contest but I’ll need to speak to the social worker to discuss that and I’m out of spoons for today.

Yeah it’s just the estate that is liable, for my friend I just paid the bills & added them to my executors expenses claim, currently stand at £4k not been paid yet but it will all come out in the wash eventually.

Edit- council tax on property should be zero for 12 months, or until property is sold.

Also note, probate can take up to 16 weeks to be granted, from application, so they are potentially looking at around 10 months before they get paid.

It’s far from an uncommon situation, as you probably know filling for probate isnt exactly a priority when you are grieving and sorting out funerals etc.

Yeah. My understanding is 4-9 months depending on complexity. I did point this out, and also suggested that this can’t be a wildly atypical situation.

2 and a half years for me and still a few bits to be sorted.

It is actually useful as the debts can be offset against the value of the estate,  it may not apply in this case, but it would reduce any inheritance tax liability. and allow the value of the estate to be know if there was a split between more than one beneficiary.

But I agree that the senders of the letters should have made clear that the debt was due from you as executor and not your personal liability.

But I agree that the senders of the letters should have made clear that the debt was due from you as executor and not your personal liability.

It’s probably just a standard automatic reminder of the bill… a phone call politely telling them they will just have to pipe down whilst the estate accounts are rationalised in terms of debt, tax liability etc, should shut them up for a while.

Our probate solicitor was kind enough to prewarn us, it will be 125 quid for them to write a letter.  So my advice is, do as much running around as you can.

Sorry for your loss btw, I found all the bereavement teams at banks, utilities, council etc, v helpful.  I did most of the admin, it’s q straightforward.

All the best

also suggested that this can’t be a wildly atypical situation.

Indeed, nothing can happen untill probate is granted, and then the estate accounts need to be prepared, ie. the gross value of the estate, minus debts (typicaly overpayment of any pensions/benefits), tax, executor expenses, care fees and legal fees.

That then leaves you with a final figure that can be distributed to the beneficiaries according to the will.

Preparing the estate accounts is a duty of the executor(s), and has to be done properly (executor liability for cocking it up).

Presumably as your solicior is joint executor, they will prepare the estate accounts, and will also insist a minimum 6 month wait between grant of probate and wrapping up the estate, to ensure everything is covered debt wise and final distribution to benificiaries wise.

MY probate solicitor terms of business states up to 3% of the estate is their fee.  They stupidly gave me a estimate in writing of 1/3 of that number but billed the 3%.  We had a bit of a row about the bill and came to a compromise.  £7000 its cost me.  I don’t care.  I could not have done it.  Money well spent as far as I am concerned

MY probate solicitor terms of business states up to 3% of the estate is their fee. They stupidly gave me a estimate in writing of 1/3 of that number. We had a bit of a row about the bill and came to a compromise. £7000 its cost me. I don’t care. I could not have done it. Money well spent as far as I am concerned

Thats expensive, unless it’s a complicated estate and/or there is bickering between beneficiaries etc..

For anyone else reading, don’t go on a % of estate legal fee, get a fixed estimate.

When I’ve done it, it’s been along the lines of ‘the bill will be btween 3- 4k, unless anything odd or complicated occurs, in which case our standard rates apply beyond the scope of the estimate’.

insist a minimum 6 month wait

6 months from probate is legal limit for a will to be contested, so makes sense to wait.

I’ve just been through it myself and the advice so far is good.

You’re not liable, the estate is, and probate needs to be granted before you have the legal authority to pay creditors from the estate. They need to wait.

All the organisations ‘should’ have specialist bereavement departments and standard processes (+ waiting periods for probate) to put into place.

Keep talking to them so they stay off your back. In my case the council were lovely and the mortgage companies were arseholes.

I was grateful of the solicitor’s (expensive) help as it took some of the stress out of an already stressful time.

Good luck and I’m sorry for your loss.

Yes it was expensive – but its also been fairly complex.  5 different pension pots to sort out all with different rules and some hard to find, 4 bank accounts, shares to transfer etc etc and we were not married.  If I had known it was going to be £7000 beforehand I would perhaps have taken a different route but probably not.

Cheers all.

Famous last words, it should be straight-forward. I’m executor and beneficiary; there’s a risk that, what, I’m going to rip myself off?

All the organisations ‘should’ have specialist bereavement departments and standard processes (+ waiting periods for probate) to put into place.

Mostly they’ve all been giving me money. Which is nice.

As I said, my mum didn’t owe a penny to anyone. The only outstanding invoice is this Care one.

it would reduce any inheritance tax liability

We live(d) in East Lancashire. Her house was valued at five figures. We’re not going to be troubling the taxman.

Cheers all.

Famous last words, it should be straight-forward.

.

As I said, my mum didn’t owe a penny to anyone. The only outstanding invoice is this Care one.

It should be dead simple then as far as admistration of estates go.

Cash value of whole estate (say a house and a few banks accounts), minus debts (legal fees, funeral fees, care costs, tax if applicable, pensions/benefit overpayments)

As executor, you can also claim reasonable expenses off the top line..

https://probate-a-will.co.uk/2018/08/the-executors-expense/

It’s just not a fast process to ensure it’s done correctly, due dillegence, etc. Creditors will be well ware of that.

A large part of the executors responsibility is to produce final accounts, as above.

In your case it could simply be a single page spreadsheet:

Estate value – costs & outstanding debts = what the beneficiary gets.

^ EDIT to the above, although as executor and sole beneficiary, executor expenses are probably niether here nor there, aside from your joint exec solicitors fees.

Nicely, thanks.

Yeah, assuming “expenses” come from my mum’s estate then that’s surely moot, there’s little point I can see in expensing myself.

Ie, Estate value [sale of house plus bank account] – costs & outstanding debts [respectively the funeral which has already been paid from her estate, and none] = what the beneficiary gets.

Regarding Council tax, am I right in thinking you’re still living in the house? In which case, they would be sending you the bill as the resident?

When you do not pay Council Tax
If you’re selling a property on behalf of an owner who’s died, you do not need to pay Council Tax until after you get probate as long as the property remains empty. After probate is granted, you may be able to get a Council Tax exemption for another 6 months if the property is both:

unoccupied
still owned and in the name of the person who died

https://www.gov.uk/council-tax/second-homes-and-empty-properties

If the house is occupied, then the usual rates would apply to the occupier.

They are probably sending cougar the health care bill, which will be from the local council (not to be confused with council tax on the house) , as he’s primary contact c/o and executor.

Yeah. It’s my mum’s house, I haven’t lived there since the 1990s.

Yeah, assuming “expenses” come from my mum’s estate then that’s surely moot, there’s little point I can see in expensing myself.

This is not necessarily the case – in theory, upon death all bank accounts etc. will be frozen (I’m sure you’re aware of this) and whilst you can get dispensation from banks I found it easier when I was dealing with things to pay for funeral etc. myself as an expense and sort it later. Some things won’t wait to be paid unfortunately.

The bank will – and has – paid out for the funeral. But nothing else.

Any other expenses either come out of my pocket right now or will have to wait till probate completion. But ultimately it’s the same pocket, the only difference is timings. I’ve had to stick stuff on a credit card and cancel my ‘pay off in full every month’ Direct Debit mandate so that’s going to start accruing interest. I could theoretically claim that back against the estate at some point I suppose but, to what end when it’s all going to be coming to me anyway?

There is no external money to claim against, and no other internal interested parties. Please correct me if I’ve missed something here but I’m not seeing any scope for either a net profit or a net loss; today money either comes out of my account or my mum’s, but post-probate it will all the same pot.

Basically yes, you are correct.

In the meantime, anyone chasing money should just be told politley to ‘sit on their thumbs’ and wait, aside from REALLY unavoidable costs, house insurance for example.

As you said earlier, there’s no point expensing yourself if you are the only beneficiary, it’s a logical fallacy.

If there were several other beneficiaries, say a sibling, or a nephew or whatever, it’s a bit different, as they would need to see transparancy in the executors expenditure when dealing with the admin of the estate, the accounts and distribution.

It doesn’t sound like that would apply to you though, so you can certainly relax on that front.

In the meantime, anyone chasing money should just be told politley to ‘sit on thier thumbs’ and wait, aside from REALLY unavoidable costs, house insurance for example.

Exactly the conversation I had today with the care people.

The house insurance I sorted early. There was some sort of financial chicanery because my mum was paying monthly on some finance agreement(?) so I just paid it off. I figured, it had to remain in place even though it was technically an optional expense.

Everything else isn’t my monkey as far as I’m aware. Come after me post-probate or write it off. What are they going to do, upset my mum’s credit rating? I doubt she’s bothered right now.

Yeah, just chill if you can.. it’s very stressfull.

It takes time, any creditors will be well aware of that. And you have a solicitor as joint exec, they will know the score, it’s bread and butter text book stuff for probate solicitors.

Your co/exec solicitor will be charging a significant fee I’m sure, so lean on them for advice a bit and make them earn thier money, within reason. That’s what you are ultimatley paying them for.

Well, at this point in time I’m not. As above,

The solicitor and I are named as joint executors. They advised that they can handle probate (and nothing else) for a four-figure fee or let me do it for a three-figure fee which I find somewhat perverse. I’m doing the latter but thus far haven’t told them this.

I’ve had no dealings with them beyond the reading of the will, and the reading was broadly “here’s the will, off you go.” It’s been quite remarkable how many organisations have taken everything on word of mouth, the only one to go “yeah, prove it” to date has been the Post Office who has been providing a widow’s pension since my dad died. Like, what, I’m fraudulently going to go “please stop giving us money”?

Famous last words, it should be straight-forward. I’m executor and beneficiary; there’s a risk that, what, I’m going to rip myself off?

The main issue will be if the estate is over the IHT threshold (or is close to it) as sorting all the financial statements out can be a pain (at least it sounded like it when my brother did it a couple of years back). Lots of form filling and if there’s investments that keep increasing in value whilst you’re waiting on probate etc. you might even end up having to do a correction.

If you are selling a vacant house put the utilities in your name and pay the min 5 quid dd, that way you stay on the cheap dd tariff.  Water you get 3 months free of charge.  Council tax depends on area, I m getting council tax letters 9 months later asking who the new owner is, is it vacant, probate granted.

If your Mum’s house is sitting empty you’ll need to inform the insurance company and most likely take out a new policy or policies for building and contents for an unoccupied property.  I had to do that for my Mum’s house last year whilst her estate was finalised and before the house could be sold.  There were a couple of specific conditions with the insurance: the temperature in the house had to be kept at a minimum of 14 deg and someone had to go in and check the property (once a fortnight).

you might even end up having to do a correction.

For iht all that matters is value at date of death, only reason you’d need a correction is if an asset value is largely different when sold compared with value stated for iht (I’ve been told anything over £5k difference would be considered for iht correction) – trying to sell a friends house at the moment & already dropped asking price to £15k below iht valuation 😕