Viewing 28 posts - 81 through 108 (of 108 total)
  • Will UKIP really split the tory vote and let Labour in?
  • Premier Icon konabunny
    Free Member

    One of the hardest things for a party like that is to stop being known as the “NO!” party objecting to everything and move into a more real world space.

    Something the Greens failed to do in WA with LNG: when they realized they were going To have to choose between support aboriginal people and opposing fossil fuel development their head asploded.

    Premier Icon SST
    Free Member

    I’m currently in South Africa and they’ve just had a general election. The fifth democratic election since the end of apartheid in 1994. The ANC party is to remain in power as it has done since ’94, but with its lowest majority ever.

    There are many serious issues in SA at the moment concerning education & health services, housing and essential supply services, corruption and theft within government and local authorities, and the serious/violent crime rate is one of the highest in the world.

    After 20 years of democracy, when asked why millions of people still live in squatter camps, why over 3 million people don’t have access to electricity, why if you go to a government hospital you have to take your own clean sheets and food, the government say that there hasn’t been enough time yet since the end of apartheid to fix these things. Hopefully for the millions of people who live in such awful conditions, 25 or 30 years will have “been enough time” and they will have access to the basic services – clean running water and electricity. It will be a step in the right direction if the government and local authorities can stop “losing” money. Last year alone 32 billion rand was unaccounted for.

    Meanwhile, the masses have spoken. They are apparently happy enough with things as they are to remain loyal to the ANC.

    Premier Icon ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Sounds like South Africans need to vote UKIP as a protest vote then. Nigel Farage would be the obvious answer for them.

    Premier Icon 5thElefant
    Free Member

    Last year alone 32 billion rand was unaccounted for.

    With accounting like that they should join the eu.

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Free Member

    @SST Mugbe still rolls out the White Opression argument very effectively, the ANC will do so for many more years as well as enriching its senior members even further.

    @mikesmith that chart on rail privatisation makes sense.

    I personally think UKIP OS quite hard to pin down on left / right. I see it as a party with quite extreme views taken from both sides of the political spectrum. It has one very popular policy and that is that’s it’s anti EU. It’s quite clear to me that if we had a straightforward in/out EU referendum the vote now would be “out”

    Premier Icon ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    Oh so now there’s no difference between Mugabe and the ANC ? ffs

    Premier Icon Junkyard
    Free Member

    5thElefant wrote:

    Last year alone 32 billion rand was unaccounted for.
    With accounting like that they should join the eu.

    Most of its misspent money is done by the national govts rather than by the EU- oh and you should see how our MOD does

    Eg CAP is administered nationally IIRC and has much fraud

    Should not blame the EU because the countries are corrupt IMHO

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Free Member

    I personally think UKIP OS quite hard to pin down on left / right.

    So if this is the right side what are their left policies?

    The rest of UKIPs policies demonstrate that they occupy the extreme-right fringe of the neoliberal orthodoxy. They support massive tax cuts for corporations and the super-rich, the privatisation agenda, the destruction of what remains of the social safety net, the protection of the idle rentier class, the deregulation of firearms, the militarisation of the police, the construction of dozens of new privately operated jails as part of the prison-industrial complex, open discrimination against homosexuals, the scrapping of our human rights, the indoctrination of children with nationalist propaganda, anti-environmentalism, the expansion of Iain Duncan Smith’s Stalinist forced labour schemes, an energy policy built on heavily subsidised nuclear power plants and fracking, the pushing of “free trade” onto the third world and all pervaded by the stench of barely concealed xenophobia.

    Premier Icon SST
    Free Member

    The general feeling in SA is that there is very little difference between Mad Bob and what the ANC would do if they thought they could get away with it. Time will tell I guess – I’m just a visitor 🙂

    The ANC of today bares no resemblance to the ANC of Nelson Mandela. You would have to live here to fully appreciate how bad it is though.

    Premier Icon ninfan
    Free Member

    Eg CAP is administered nationally IIRC and has much fraud

    Should not blame the EU because the countries are corrupt IMHO

    Oh, come on – the process of auditing is inherent to preventing fraud and corruption at a national or local level.

    EU’s own audit authorities accept that approx 5% of spending is ‘in error’ – the definition of ‘error’ includes fraud, for example “A farmer was granted a special premium for 150 sheep. The Court [of auditors] found that the beneficiary did not have any sheep. The corresponding payment was therefore irregular.”

    The problem is that the EU knows of this fraud, knows of the corruption going on, that the national governments involved are turning a blind eye to it, and the EU keep making the payments!

    For the majority of transactions affected by error in shared management areas (e.g. agriculture and
    cohesion), the Member State authorities had sufficient information available to have detected and
    corrected the errors.

    If you know that the member state could have prevented it and didn’t, then you stop handing over the money till their house is in order – simple! Its the fact that the EU is aware of this and keeps paying that leads to people calling the EU corrupt, because while they are aware of it, they’re complicit in it!

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Free Member

    @ernie how do you get from what I posted to your conclusion ? Both Mugabe and the ANC roll out the same arguments on this point. Whether the ANC and South Africa drfit more towards the sad debacle that exists in Zimbabwe we’ll have to wait and see.

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Free Member

    Just on EU fraud and turning a bkjnd eye – EVERYONE in any position of influene in financd or government knew exactly what was going on with Greece in terms of their huge borrowing and misrepresentation of that borrowing. They just chose to do nothing about it

    Premier Icon 5thElefant
    Free Member

    Should not blame the EU because the countries are corrupt IMHO

    Of course you can. The eu shouldn’t allow corruption.

    Premier Icon konabunny
    Free Member

    Mugbe still rolls out the White Opression argument very effectively, the ANC will do so for many more years as well as enriching its senior members even further.

    [citation needed]

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Free Member

    So if this is the right side what are their left policies?

    @mike – you posted the survey link to the re-nationalisation of the railways. We all need to be very careful, IMO, of falling into the trap of assuming UKIP is a party of the extreme right. I haven’t read back as to the source of the quote you placed below but it’s typical of the forlorn attempts to portray UKIP as “right wing nutters”

    @kona – citation, err its what I posted on the Internet. An opinion. FWIW it’s one formed after speaking to family members who either still live in SA or have left and numerous colleagues, all of whom have left.

    Premier Icon ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    …it’s typical of the forlorn attempts to portray UKIP as “right wing nutters”

    There’s nothing “forlorn” about describing UKIP as right-wing, that’s exactly what they are. And if you can’t see it then it’s hardly surprising that you also equate Mugabe with the ANC.

    Your muddleness, confusion, or straightforward denial, is at least consistent.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Free Member

    We all need to be very careful, IMO, of falling into the trap of assuming UKIP is a party of the extreme right.

    In that case would you care to post some of their other policies? They seem to want to keep most of them secret or just change them to get something. People need to be very careful when voting for someone like UKIP that they actually know what they are voting for. Unless of course they have had a massive change in priorities and their major donors (mainly from the disgruntled tories are going soft end of things) have decided they want something different.

    Premier Icon chewkw
    Free Member

    mikewsmith – Member
    People need to be very careful when voting for someone like UKIP that they actually know what they are voting for.

    There are only 3.5 persons going to them on STW so not really a massive impact are they?
    😆

    Premier Icon bencooper
    Full Member

    People need to be very careful when voting for someone like UKIP that they actually know what they are voting for.

    Oh, come on – it’s not like they’re Holocaust deniers or something:

    http://swns.com/news/ukip-candidate-claims-jews-murdered-holocaust-masterplan-create-state-israel-34642/

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Free Member

    I did actually check their website/manifesto in case I was missing something that jambalaya was seeing but in summary it was
    Immigrants are bad
    It’s the EU’s fault
    Immigrants are causing problems
    Nasty foreigners are taking all our jobs (especially in advertising posters and leaflet distribution)
    Taxes are too high
    EU makes taxes to high
    Immigrants are causing the EU
    Life would be better if we could go back to being EnglishBritish

    Then a general coating of casual Racism about how it’s OK to call all Romanians criminals cause they are OK!

    so in some ways as people from the left and the right of politics are racist there does seem to be something in there for your casual racist regardless of political affiliation.

    Premier Icon binners
    Full Member

    UKIP was formed by, and now consists of foaming-at-the-mouth lunatics people for whom the present Tory party just weren’t/aren’t Tory enough.

    If you think a person who regards the present Tory mob as too namby-pamby, liberal and centrist should get a sniff of the power to make policy, then you’re completely unhinged!!!

    Premier Icon ninfan
    Free Member

    Then a general coating of casual Racism about how it’s OK to call all Romanians criminals cause they are OK!

    Is it racist to say it if its true?

    https://fullfact.org/factchecks/romanian_criminals_UK_Britain-28799

    Regardless – Bloody Foreigner, coming over here, wanting to know what love is!

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Free Member

    Is it racist to say it if its true?

    The link says the facts are not that clear and they are waiting to clarify a couple. Doesn’t say that being of a certain nationality makes you a criminal anywhere.

    Premier Icon jambalaya
    Free Member

    @ernie – let’s agree to disagree. I am pretty close to South African politics and I know plenty of liberal Africans who make the same comparison between the ANC and Mugabe, the personal wealth that the senior members of the ANC have accumulated in the last 20 years is staggering.

    @mike – You asked for an example and I posted one from your own chart. UKIP is about protecting UK employment via legislation, a very left wing ideology. Their only policies which matter are on immigration and leaving the EU, that’s where they are getting their votes and IMO people don’t actually care right now if they have any other policies. As I said they are taking lots of votes from all the parties including the left. You can’t get to 30% in the polls otherwise.

    As an aside I saw a research study which showed the dissatisfaction with the EU we are seeing in the UK is mirrored in France, Spain, Italy and Germany.

    If we believe the polls (and I appreciate that may not be reflected in votes) we would have to assume that 30% of STWers will be supporters of UKIP.

    Unless the political establishment of Labour and the Tories gets its act together UKIP is going to build a lot of momentum at the EU elections and be a real factor come the general election. Their current strategy clearly isn’t working.

    Premier Icon MrWoppit
    Free Member

    ernie_lynch – Member
    Oh so now there’s no difference between Mugabe and the ANC ? ffs

    Quite. How many ANC members have you seen sporting a moustache that looks like a dead caterpillar? Eh?

    Premier Icon binners
    Full Member

    Unless the political establishment of Labour and the Tories gets its act together UKIP is going to build a lot of momentum at the EU elections and be a real factor come the general election. Their current strategy clearly isn’t working.

    Both political parties are facing up to the reality of their unpopularity. So how are they reacting to this? By listening to people, and adjusting their policies accordingly? Of course not! Labour and the Tories are now aiming for the same thing. To try and get their core vote out enough, so that they can limp over the finish line with 35% of the vote. Thats the sum amount of our political masters ambition nowadays. No vision. No ideology. No appeal to the electorate on social justice. **** all! They just hope that by being not quite as hideously awful as the other lot, they’ll win by default, on a record-breakingly low percentage of a record-breakingly low turnout

    Its hardly bloody surprising that Farage is doings well, and Alex Salmond north of the border, when faced with this sort of cynicism

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Free Member

    @mike – You asked for an example and I posted one from your own chart. UKIP is about protecting UK employment via legislation, a very left wing ideology.

    The chart is the opinions of their voters not their actual policy.

    They don’t really want to protect UK based workers they would just prefer their slaves spoke english.

    Premier Icon ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    @ernie – let’s agree to disagree. I am pretty close to South African politics and I know plenty of liberal Africans who make the same comparison between the ANC and Mugabe, the personal wealth that the senior members of the ANC have accumulated in the last 20 years is staggering.

    So you know many people who share the same opinion as yourself ? Well I don’t know how I can refute that – so it must mean that you are right in what you say.

    Do you also know many people who share your opinion that UKIP are ” very left wing” ?

    That’s “very left wing” despite the fact that all UKIP’s policies in their 2010 manifesto were right wing, and their leader, who appears to make up policies on the hoof during interviews, proudly proclaims to be a huge supporter of Thatcherism.

    Oh hang on a minute, you’re going to tell me that Margret Thatcher wasn’t really right wing and in fact was “very left wing”, are you ?

    There was “a forlorn attempt to portray” Thatcher as right wing eh ? By presumably left wingers ?

Viewing 28 posts - 81 through 108 (of 108 total)

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