rollindoughnut

Thisisnotaspoon and BadlyWiredDog, thank you for so eloquently putting into words that gut feeling about ebikes that nags away at me despite all the arguments in their favour.

The jet ski analogy reminded me of a time when I used to windsurf. Trying to come ashore a jet ski was getting pounded in the shore break. We may have spent a while watching the machine getting crunched into the pebbles (the guy was safe on the shore), with plenty of oooos and ahhhs and “that’ll be expensive” remarks, before ambling down to help pull it out. Fellow windsurfer in the same situation would have had guys running down the beach to whip them out of trouble.

Fond memories.

So whats the moral of that story, windsurfers are bawbags?

I think the jet ski analogy is very good.

The people who use them generally aren’t the people who kayak, sail or windsurf. It’s a whole different market.

Not sure about that, most people on e-mtb seem to be keen cyclists who are getting older or have other reasons they cannot cycle as long/far as they used to. Though I am sure the mythical Audi owning dentists will be along to dump £5k+ on an ebike but they will only be riding them around the Walking Bottom Car Park at Peaslake so that is OK.

@seosamh77. No. The moral is that Badlywiredog, Spoony and Dougnut probably are.

Even emtb ryders themselves make up bizarre pre-conceptions of what they think an emtb owner must be. Seems pretty strange typing your prejudices online but even more so when it’s based puely on a type of bicycle you’ve never even tried.

I can think of a lot of things I haven’t tried, might enjoy but find morally repugnant. Does that mean I can’t have a view on them? Where I ride (techy trails in the Tweed valley and big Scottish hills) I’ve yet to meet anyone with a positive view of e-bikes, yet on Singletrack there seems to be a consensus that e-bikes are the bees knees and that no one is allowed to express a view to the contrary. I guess that’s because most anti e-bike feeling does centre on a gut feeling that using one is cheating; I can see why this doesn’t go do well with the acolytes though however. Really there needs to be a subset forum for the mobility scooter crowd so they can carry on crowing about them and leave the rest of the forum to proper mountain bikers.*

*Sorry to be such a wind up merchant but the e-bike luvvy-dovey thing has got out of control on here with at least two posts a day where only the fan club are allowed a say!

“morally repugnant”. 

Ha ha…  *waves to chickenman way up on his horse* Oooohh… I do like you 😀

Coincidentally I’ve been regularly riding those exact trails where you say you are yet to find anyone with a positive view of Ebikes since the early 90s, rigid forks, canti brakes an’ all. Out of interest do you actually speak to strangers you meet while riding and discuss Ebikes with them? I do speak to pretty much every rider I meet while riding (I’m a country mouse, I find townies who don’t acnowledge others while out in the country strange so will offer the first greeting even if they wouldn’t have) In the past couple of months I’ve ridden a little over 500miles of those trails on an Emtb so guess what a lot of the conversations include? So far I am yet to find anyone quite so ridiculous as yourself. Out of the hundreds of riders I’ve spoken to only ONE was upset about me being on an Ebike. He was on an incredibly expensive looking steel hardtail 400m from my house and got all excited when he saw what he thought was a Di2 controller on my bars and then when I explained what it actually was he hurried off in disgust. He was a pretty funny guy too!

I ride “morrally sound” unassisted bikes just as much if not more than my Ebike. infact I’m not long home from a day riding one of them on a thoroughly imorral uplift day in your beloved Tweed Valley. I’m not an Ebike evangalist. I’m just a realist. Let me share one of my morals that might serve you well in future… Live and let live.

I’ll come say hello and give you a shot of my Emtb if I see you parked up sometime. What colour is your T5?

It’s posts like those by chickenman that made me feel quite self-conscious about riding my ebike, and if I want to ride then that’s my only choice.

Really there needs to be a subset forum for the mobility scooter crowd so they can carry on crowing about them and leave the rest of the forum to proper mountain bikers.

I’m 31 and actual mobility scooter is where I’m headed so that’s really a pretty shiity comment.

Aye, Chicken of a man is probably more appropriate

Riding in Rotorua yesterday I saw 3 people riding full sus ebikes. Each time they were on a cool little climb through the woods right at the top of a hill. I got to the end of the climb to be greeted with the uplift van that was belching out diesel fumes as about 20 people unloaded their bikes. All 3 ebike riders spoke to me as they either passed me or I passed them. The one annoying thing was that one stopped to speak to me on a hill that he could get going again on with the help of the assist  but I struggled. I guess what I am trying to say is that the ebike riders were friendly folk and  I would rather people rode ebikes to the top of that hill than have to breath in all that diesel crap.

Me, I like anything on 2 wheels.

That includes motorbikes in any shape or form. 🙂

” I feel that eBikes erode the very essence of cycling.”

How effing pompous

I’ve been toying with the idea of getting either a Rocky Mountain Altitude Powerplay or an Electric Motion trials iron to play about with in Greece. At the moment, I’m leaning towards the e-mtb. At my age there are only so many 1000+ metre climbs in 30+ degree temperatures that I have in me. Ideally I’d like both, and the trials bike would open up routes that, on a bicycle, (electric or not) just aren’t possible.

But, having both just isn’t an option so, for the days that I’m out on my own (which is most of the time) the e-mtb would be the better option for me.

We’ll see – it may never happen, I might decide that I’ve got a few more years left in me on a “normal” mtb. Maybe when I’m 70…

I have no problem with eBikes as ‘assistance’, even if I wouldn’t want one myself, but the jetski analogy has settled my opinion on electric motorbikes offroad. Ask any sea kayaker what they think of jetskis!

Anyone tried one of these. Just had an add for one

https://www.addmotor.com/shop/m-150?gclid=CjwKCAjwgr3ZBRAAEiwAGVssnXnzP7qJHUNp4_KDRXls-s-ZI9p1ZKt1FUfCbLTScO_SspDMnvxXYxoCzDAQAvD_BwE

Awesome, Thanks to this thread I’ve learnt that kayakers and windsurfers are massive sausages, much as cyclists and drivers seem to be. Maybe the problem is people, not their mode of transport.

Ban people!

The sea is big.

Why do jet skiers have to ride right on the edge of the safe swim area?

@chickenman

…

*Sorry to be such a wind up merchant but the e-bike luvvy-dovey thing has got out of control on here with at least two posts a day where only the fan club are allowed a say!

Is it a wind-up if you say something which is on-topic and you believe in it?  I would have thought not.

How effing pompous

That’s how I am, ask anyone. And yeah, I suppose it is a bit pompous, what I was trying to say is that for me – I’m not saying everyone has to agree – what differentiates bicycles from motorbikes is that they’re purely human powered. For me eBikes go over that line. YMMV etc.

Is that better?

Im hoping that they do.

Youll never replace the car as you get wet on a bike. I would expect that for most people thats half the reason they dont ride to work (its mine)

im seeing loads more ebikes around calderdale. Normally piloted by the more portly individual (of which i am one). However they are all smiling and happy while fat old me is puffing and panting along. It does make we wonder if im missing a trick here.

As a previous sceptic, I can say e-bikes are great, and I’ve only had mine a few days.

I think unfortunately it is a very big leap to get people out of their cars, but if you only commute a short way and are already a keep cyclist or motorbike rider (basically you can cope with getting a bit wet and cold), then they make a lot of sense.

I can understand why people are sceptical (I was) because descents have to be earned etc etc.. but if your not training for anything and ride for fun and a bit of fitness, then an e-mtb is a great idea.  More miles, more descents, more time outside, still doing 50 to 70% of the work yourself so still getting a work out.  What’s not to like?

I’m talking purely pedal assist bikes here though, those conversions with a throttle are a different story…  Each to their own in the end I guess!

Crikey is this still going?

While I don’t maybe find E-Bikes “Morally Repugnant” I do think there is a sense in which they “Erode” or at least challenge part of what find appealing about bicycles. and that is the whole “Human powered” aspect of bikes…

Now I know various people will trot out he whole;

“Ah but surely suspension/gears/brakes/droppers/etc… constitute some sort of extra mechanical assistance to the most basic concept of a bicycle?”

And to some extent that is true, but without being an absolute purist about such things, I still can’t help but admire the concept of turning basic Human physical effort into high speed movement, to me it constitutes a high point in human ingenuity, our over-developed ape brains came up with a collection of mechanisms that make incredibly efficient use of the operators movement and allow them to cover large distances and variable terrain without any additional energy sources or necessity for extra infrastructure… Bicycles definitely pass the “apocalypse test” i.e. would it still function if/when society fell apart? Not many modes of transport would; Horses, Bicycles and French Diesel cars (running on chip fat) would be the only way to travel across the scorched wastelands following the end of civilization. But not an E-bike…

Supplement a bicycle with a motor and it ceases to be quite the same thing, yes it’s another development plucked from that over-developed ape brain, but it’s no longer a (close to) “self-sufficient” device, it needs plugging in to the mains, it probably needs a man with a laptop to periodically “Maintain” it, rather than a man in a shed with a few basic tools, it’s no longer a “Proper” bicycle (IMO).

So yeah, if you are elderly or infirm I certainly won’t begrudge you your mobility/leisure, if you are wealthy enough to buy an E-bike you’re welcome to spend your money on such toys. It’s all good, and it’s still far better for society and the environment than buying yet another car… But it’s still not a real bicycle, however you justify it.

I’m 55 now and in about 15 years time I too will be on a mobility scooter most likely (that’s funny by the way not offensive (though of course not if you have a serious health condition), as was the repugnant comment). Difference is that I’d then freely admit I’m cheating and be quite chilled about it. Am quite aware that I’ve made some people upset on here but when restrained and reasoned approaches (eg Thisisnotaspoon’s) are shot down with the usual bollocks arguments then one has to either walk away or go for the jugular.

Bollocks arguments are:

“motors on bikes are a natural evolution of the bicycle”. Motors have been on bikes since 1867 (Wikipedia). What differentiates a motorbike from a pedal cycle is that you don’t provide the power to move the thing a long.

“A motor on a bike is an innovation no different to suspension, gears or knobbly tyres”. See above. Gears to allow you to spread your effort over more pedal strokes, mtb tyres and suspension for comfort and grip do not artificially supplement your energy input.

“You just ride further with an e-bike so expend the same energy”. Don’t believe (most of) you.

Difference is that I’d then freely admit I’m cheating

Cheating implies that there are rules. What are the rules in this case, where are they written down & who exactly wrote them?

chickenman

I’m 55 now and in about 15 years time I too will be on a mobility scooter most likely…

Probably not that soon if you keep riding your bicycle – unless you have a medical problem.

We should pity the poor fools who’ve bought into this new improved way of riding. No longer will a couple of mates be able to turn to each other and say ‘shall we press on and make this an epic?’ Instead of popping into a shop for more food supplies there’ll be bleating about battery range and the idea will be killed in an instant. It’s another cute move by the bike industry. All I see in my mind is a bunch of people walking zombie-like into the abyss waving their credit cards chanting ‘I want, I want, I want!’

(Before anyone gets upset, this is all said in a light hearted manner. I don’t care THAT much)

And back to the original question posed by the OP, yes they will most likely evolve into light motorbikes.  The demand will be there for zero effort climbing to enable fun on the way down. The current state of affairs is just a stepping stone. It’s a bit silly really making the throttle peddle controlled, it’s only a way of bypassing the law really. Give it time and humans* desire to make everything easier will prevail.

*All species do this, but it’d be nice if we tried to resist the urge to ‘advance’ sometimes and just enjoyed what we had.

What I find interesting is the amount of justification from people into their use of an ebike. “With two kid and busy job I am not as fit as I once was”, or “I am busy and ebike allows me to get more fun in the same amount of time”. The form of this justification shows that they know a ebike is inferior, but their circumstances allow for the justification of this inferiority, any easy solution of buy ones way out of a problem.

My Emtb is a faster descender than my fastest Enduro bike. I ride bikes for a living and on top of that spend somewhere between 8-12hrs (moving time) riding bikes each week? I’m fit and healthy with no (physical )disabilities. I don’t need to justify anything to anyone. I have 11 other bikes  I don’t have to justify having any of those either. How do you explain my situation?

We don’t all fit into your imaginary neat little boxes.

TheBrick

What I find interesting is the amount of justification from people into their use of an ebike…

Yes, but that’s probably just cyclists or ex cyclists.

The new to cycling probably just think “Oh goodie!”

And there’s lots more of them than us. A huge new market.

Maybe in time actual cyclists will be regarded as a strange subset like fixed riders are now. 🙂

My Emtb is a faster descender than my fastest Enduro bike. I ride bikes for a living and on top of that spend somewhere between 8-12hrs (moving time) riding bikes each week? I’m fit and healthy with no (physical )disabilities. I don’t need to justify anything to anyone. I have 11 other bikes I don’t have to justify having any of those either. How do you explain my situation?

That’s a lot of justification for someone who isn’t justifying anything.

What I find strange is how everyone seems to be trying to justify the plus or minus arguments (including me I will admit!). Haters…why do you care what other people choose to do in their spare time and why do you care if the dare to call it cycling?

Ebikers… why do you feel the need to justify what you choose to do in your spare time to people who are clearly so entrenched in their views that nothing you say will change it.

I feel a similar irrational dislike of road bikes and CX bikes both of which in my opinion are less relevant on STW than e mountain bikes but I do not kick off on any of the many threads on here about those. Maybe I am just not as insecure as some 😉

tbh i dont care.

you want an ebike buy one. Will that stop me taking the micky? not a chance. Its nothing personal. same goes for anyone on a newer, shinier, is fitter etc etc.

why do you care what other people choose to do in their spare time

I for one don’t, but it stops being the same sport as soon as you based a motor.

From most of these threads it seems to break down like this:

The haters are usually people who’s riding is all about the climbing and Strava, basically roadies pretending to be mountain bikers, the “my wheels never leave the ground” crew.

The more pro-ebike people seem to enjoy the descents, the adrenaline buzz, sessioning a good track, a bit more easy going and tolerant, decent riders.

I for one don’t, but

😆

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What I find strange is how everyone seems to be trying to justify the plus or minus arguments (including me I will admit!). Haters…why do you care what other people choose to do in their spare time and why do you care if the dare to call it cycling?

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Ebikers… why do you feel the need to justify what you choose to do in your spare time to people who are clearly so entrenched in their views that nothing you say will change it.

I think it’s the endless paragraphs seeking affirmation and approval that are irritating – I mean you’re right, a majority of folk will think they’re great, get otherwise past-it mountain bikers off the couch and onto the saddle; and a minority think they’re an emasculating disgrace that should be driven from the trails by an angry mob. It doesn’t matter. What matters is e-bikers being secure and happy with their choice. That seems to be a difficult state of mind to reach for a lot of people, given the diary-of-an-ebike-nobody that appears on the forum every two days.

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a 250cc motorbike doing 100mpg, not being diesel, and not adding to congestion,  is far better than a car.  And if you ban bikes >250cc from cities you would have to make that the line and ban all cars which isn’t going to happen any time soon.

————————

several people at work have bought cheap 125s to cut their commuting cost and carbon footprint…

Hmm.  Problem is motorbikes really aren’t great in terms of emissions.  They’re not even that great in terms of economy (ie CO2). They also generate a lot of noise pollution (which anti-social riders obviously think is ‘cool’ in some way as see so many with noisy after market exhausts on).

Tests on a selection of modern motorbikes and private cars revealed that rather than being more environmentally-friendly, motorbikes emit 16 times the amount of hydrocarbons, including greenhouse gases, three times the carbon monoxide and a “disproportionately high” amount of other pollutants, compared to cars

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2005/dec/21/travelandtransport.transportintheuk

e-bikes are already ‘mopeds’ by the dictionary definition. I think they’re great and for mid distance trips they’re perfect (10km-25k).  They have a place alongside bikes, as scooters and mopeds have always had a place alongside bikes.

I’m old enough to remember early mopeds which were basically a tiny engine bolted on to a standard bike frame.

Me too. I was only a child but those bikes with an engine in the rear wheel were quite common in the days of huge numbers of people on bikes coming out of factories. Our window cleaner carried his ladders on an ordinary bike with trailer, then got a Reliant. The school caretaker had a Norman Nippy – a proper moped that needed pedalling to start it and to go up hills.

I can see a whole range of hybrid moped/motorcycles evolving from e-bikes, and they’d make a lot of sense if only car driving evolved to accommodate it.

There is also the speed pedalec sector that is to come (up to 45kph), but legislation isn’t there with that at the moment, I’ve read that there’s varying attitudes to how it should work coming from germany and belgium where they are beginning to take off i think.

They’re “motorbikes” – licence, insurance, registration.  They don’t mix well with bikes

See – https://twitter.com/halhaines/status/1009790188019683328/video/1

simons_nicolai-uk

There is also the speed pedalec sector that is to come (up to 45kph), but legislation isn’t there with that at the moment, I’ve read that there’s varying attitudes to how it should work coming from germany and belgium where they are beginning to take off i think.

They’re “motorbikes” – licence, insurance, registration.  They don’t mix well with bikes

Technically they are mopeds. If the government has any inclination to a create good transport system for the future. They should be considering how they will fit into the landscape and make it easier for people to use them. I agree they are a separate consideration from emtbs though, they are a more a part of the transport solution.

After reading this thread I went for a google round some Electric motorbikes.Holy penguinshit batman,those things are not cheap,makes a superbike seem like a bargain. 😉