Weird.

Hora defended Lance for so long, in the face of pretty damning evidence from 2004 onwards.

When unable to ignore the truth any more, then suddenly everyone must be doping… because his hero couldn’t be that different 😥

There are plenty of sports in which most don’t dope and some have. This too is possible in Cycling. Hill climbs and changing speeds support the idea that cycling is becoming cleaner… Was

As for Froome… it is going to be interesting, but the idea that because someone improves in their mid 20s they are doping ignores the reason why the TdF has a young rider competition for people below the age of 26. Yes, some people have won the GC and the White Jersey, but only 3 since 1987. For endurance events, including Marathons, often people improve in their late 20s.

They have not slowed down. A Current rider, Cantador, holds the record for the fastest climbing rate. Both Froome and Wiggins have sustained climbing rates that are high enough for long enough to show they are capable of climbing cols as fast as the previous generation even if they appear careful not too. Armstrong had his team attack from the bottom of the climb but these days riders take it easy up the first ramps of a climb so their times for the climb don’t create suspicion.

When Riis, Pantani and Ulrich set their records they dropped the peloton as soon as the climb started. Theses days the lead riders sit in the peloton pedaling on eggs then attack when the average climb rate won’t be a record.

Hora defended Lance for so long, in the face of pretty damning evidence from 2004 onwards.

1999 onwards. The cortisone positive.

Edukator – Member
They have not slowed down. A Current rider, Cantador, holds the record for the fastest climbing rate. Both Froome and Wiggins have sustained climbing rates that are high enough for long enough to show they are capable of climbing cols as fast as the previous generation even if they appear careful not too. Armstrong had his team attack from the bottom of the climb but these days riders take it easy up the first ramps of a climb so their times for the climb don’t create suspicion.

When Riis, Pantani and Ulrich set their records they dropped the peloton as soon as the climb started. Theses days the lead riders sit in the peloton pedaling on eggs then attack when the average climb rate won’t be a record.

HA HA HA HA.

That is all.

Edukator err…

are you saying Contador is clean? Or that many of us would believe him to be? Small matter of a 2 year ban? His climbing rate argues against you, not for you.

Your switch to saying that ‘if Lance wasn’t clean then no-one can be’ is only barely more logical than your staunch defence of him despite reams of evidence he was cheating.

Flattery 😉

Edukator we have done this BUT

They have not slowed down. A Current rider, Cantador, holds the record for the fastest climbing rate.

Ok firstly you have chosen to use a drug cheat to prove the point they have not slowed down ….this somewhat weakens your point not to mention being a n odd use of “reason”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpe_d’Huez#Fastest_Alpe_d.27Huez_ascents
see how low befroe you geta clean rider and note the years
It is bascially not true to say this as a quick google will show in terms of either speed or Watts per KG

Both Froome and Wiggins have sustained climbing rates that are high enough for long enough to show they are capable of climbing cols as fast as the previous generation even if they appear careful not too.

What kind of logic is this ? The proof they could is that they have not 🙄 It is also not true

Armstrong had his team attack from the bottom of the climb but these days riders take it easy up the first ramps of a climb so their times for the climb don’t create suspicion.

Or they simply lack the power to be able to do this …. given they are drug tested anyway why would they be worried that riding fast would be suspicious it is after all a race- your “reasoning is rather funny tbh again the proof is they dont

When Riis, Pantani and Ulrich set their records they dropped the peloton as soon as the climb started. Theses days the lead riders sit in the peloton pedaling on eggs then attack when the average climb rate won’t be a record.

Nonesense on all counts Riis is the 16 fastest for example and possibly slower than clean riders – Indurain for example

You do bang on anbout this but is as reasonable and well argued as Horas position

…possibly slower than clean riders – Indurain for example

Ya think??? Big Mig’s all but admitted to doping!

There isn’t any hard and fast ‘evidence’ to implicate anyone. That much is obvious.

The big problem is that there are some ‘incredible’ improvements across the Sky team, which individually don’t really seem that much (well apart from the Tour double!) but if you view the whole lot from the perspective of the USADA reasoned decision and Hamilton’s/Landis’ admissions and all that was kicked up in the aftermath then what question pops up in my mind is ‘are we really seeing clean cycling or is it just another ‘New Dawn’?’ i.e. just like in ’99 after Festina, ’06 after Armstrong, etc., etc….

Now if you come up with, ‘sure of course it is’, then good luck to you.

Just remember and keep in touch with Hora when it all goes tits up and shock horror we find out doping hasn’t actually disappeared. Again. (ETA 😉 )

The dopers are always ahead of the testers. Always.

he actually failed a drug test as well for glenbutorol iirc in a race but got a prescription for it. I did expect a reaction to that one but from Edukator.
tbh I would not be surprised to discover he doped – frankly given what has happened in Spain re blood doping and Bertie I would not be surprised by any Spanish rider, now or in the past saddly.

I think Cadel was the first one I would have bet my house on tbh and he was about 4 minutes slower

RE SKY

i think the greatest damage LA has sone is that anytime someone good comes along they will be suspected of cheating and if a ggod team comes along then the same
Yes there are parallels with LA and Postal but they have also made some pretty clear statements on drugs as has Wiggo all his career. It is not impossible that they are systematically exploiting the naive public and doping to the eyeballs but i require more proof than it is a bit like Postal and LA.
yet to se eeven a whif of a smoking gun let alone the smoking gun [ staff personel choice aside]- have you any hard evidence?

So Cantador is a drug cheat that holds the climbing record because of drugs but a rider that drops him isn’t. I’m afraid we’re back to the kind of support Armstrong got on Anglo-Saxon forums even post 99.

I think Cadel was the first one I would have bet my house on tbh and he was about 4 minutes slower

I admire your spunk young man, I’d be wary of claiming anybody after Lemond!

Wasn’t there some interview with Mig where he was asked about doping and being told silence would speak volumes and when asked replied with a deafening silence? Or am I out of my mind on PED’s and just imagining it all.

Big guys just can’t climb like that. Which is a pity as I’m (still) a big Ulrich fan… hey ho.

I am struggling to understand how Contador holds the climbing record and yet he gets dropped – any chance you could explain your logic here?
Pretty sure on Cuddles , Wiggo and Cav and I would say Nibali and some of the others tbh Spartacus, Shut up legs etc

Look at Cuddles he never got faster they all just got slower but in Edukator world perhaps he just had slower acting drugs 😉

Fromme drops Cantador (not for the first time)

When Riis, Pantani and Ulrich set their records they dropped the peloton as soon as the climb started. Theses days the lead riders sit in the peloton pedaling on eggs then attack when the average climb rate won’t be a record.

Or perhaps they attack when they know they’ve got the actual energy to sustain it?

I’m very happy to believe Cuddles has been clean through his career. I suspect it goes part of the way to explaining why he can be a difficult character. He’s spent his adult life doing what he thought he’d love knowing he was being beaten by cheats.

I’m also prepared to believe Sastre was clean. AFAIK the only ‘evidence’ against him was that he rode a bike quickly in an era when everyone else quick was on it.

I think you have to go with the fact that there is little or no “evidence” that would suggest much of the pro-peleton is doping anymore, perhaps even innocent till proven guilty? edit: or rather that those who have been caught lately no longer seem to have the power & pace they had before they were caught..

Having said that I would be very surprised if it had managed to clean its act up in just a few years. Still, one can only keep ones fingers crossed & hope for the best… 😕

No evidence. The Spanish court refused to release the names of 200 Fuentes blood-doping customers yesterday. There’s plenty of evidence but no-one is allowed to see it.

right so a no longer doped Contador is getting dropped – How exactly does that prove everyone else is cheating? Does it not suggest he is no longer cheating?
Ps By dropped you mean being slightly ahead in a sprint finish [stage 5] so he did not really drop him now did he?
Still not getting your logic tbh but dropped is an OTT description of a sprint finish and it is more accurate to say Bertie failed to drop Froome tbh

The blood seized is what 8 years old now so may not be indicative of what is happening now

I am really struggling to see the point of what you say but it is not well thought out

Personally I don’t have much faith in any cyclists, including Team Sky. The dramatic rise from being distinctly average GC stage racers / climbers to being world class for both Wiggins and Froome is pretty suspicious – Froome went from being a nobody to beating Cancellara in a time trial and being able to drop the world’s best climbers. Wiggins went from being a pretty ordinary climber to suddenly being able to climb with the best and finishing 3rd in the TDF amongst the Schleck Brothers, Contador and Armstrong. Team Sky now ride with a dominance very similar to that of US Postal, with domestiques out climbing rival team’s GC contenders. Contador was struggling to hold Porte’s wheel the other day.

Despite their zero tolerance hiring promise, they’ve already had to let 6 or 7 staff go, including Dr Geert Leinders who organised systematic doping at Rabobank. Wiggins now seems to have forgotten his quote from before the Leinders story broke:

“I think they have to take a strong look at who they invite to the race in the next few years; if there is one per cent suspicion or doubt that a team is involved in doping, or (are) working with certain doctors who are under suspicion of doping, then they shouldn’t be invited to the Tour de France, it’s as simple as that. They shouldn’t even be given a racing licence until they can prove that they are not involved in wrongdoing.”

If history has taught us anything, remarkable transformations and performances are usually followed by a scandal in cycling. Personally the only person in cycling I trust is Vaughters – he’s realistic and answers questions from the fans, including the cynics.

Oh and for the record, I think Wiggins will struggle against Nibali in the mountains at the Giro (lost 1min 40 to him the other day), so by the time the TDF comes around Froome will be leading.

No evidence. The Spanish court refused to release the names of 200 Fuentes blood-doping customers yesterday. There’s plenty of evidence but no-one is allowed to see it.

Shocking I know. That evidence REALLY needs to come out!

No evidence. The Spanish court refused to release the names of 200 Fuentes blood-doping customers yesterday. There’s plenty of evidence but no-one is allowed to see it.

Shocking I know. That evidence REALLY needs to come out!

If it was just cyclists, then it would be released. Most of the cyclists have been named IIRC, it’s the footballers and tennis players that are being protected, especially considering it’s Spain’s Olympic bid this year.

Wiggins went from being a pretty ordinary climber

Wiggins went from being a record breaking Olympic cyclist with a near peerles record at endurance [ sprinting events] with occasional road rides till he diedciated himself to the road.

It was not like he was an avergae rider just that he did not specialise in the road

As for this average riders and SKY made them awesome

with domestiques out climbing rival team’s GC contenders

its is obvious this is not a roadie forum and i cannot be bothered beating those down one by one….have a look at the GC of these domestiques then compared to GC contenders one days effort does not make a tour GC 🙄

Froome was a reasonable to good young rider who has matured well it is not unheard of it but it will raise suspicions due to previous athletes.he is not as bad as some say but yes he has got better but improving endurance with age is not unheard of without drugs and it alone is not proof of anything

And yes we should see the blood from the case mentioned

Team Sky now ride with a dominance very similar to that of US Postal, with domestiques out climbing rival team’s GC contenders. Contador was struggling to hold Porte’s wheel the other day.

Comparisons to Contador are misleading. We know he was doping and assume now he’s not, so would expect to see his performance drop off. Without the drugs maybe he would have been a domestique himself.

When racing SKY are similar in the way they control the peloton but that’s about where it ends. There’s no reason they need drugs to do this (assuming most teams are clean) just good tactics and a strong team, something which they have the budget for.

You don’t see Wiggins making repeated attacks on climbs the way Lance used to, or climb at the front day after day without looking tired.

The other way SKY and Postal resemble each other is the minute detail and dedication to training. Both teams have taken these things further than any of the competition. Again this helps with the results and is nothing to do with drugs.

JoeyDeacon; generally I think it’s fair enough to be suspicious after the number of let downs from the pro peloton but I think a couple of the points raised are a little unfair.

Team Sky now ride with a dominance very similar to that of US Postal, with domestiques out climbing rival team’s GC contenders.

Sky are a big bucks team, there domestiques would be other teams GC contenders, Porte could walk in to most teams and be a protected rider for a grand tour.

Oh and for the record, I think Wiggins will struggle against Nibali in the mountains at the Giro (lost 1min 40 to him the other day)

Is that when he was standing around waiting for a new bike from the team car? On the previous day nibali couldn’t shake him off and Wiggins wouldn’t attack as sky had the eventual stage winner up the road. So overall i don’t think we can read too much in to that.

Wiggins went from being a record breaking Olympic cyclist with a near peerles record at endurance [ sprinting events] with occasional road rides till he diedciated himself to the road.

Wiggins went from being a world class 4 minute rider, who couldn’t climb, to a world class 3 week rider who could keep up with the best doping riders pretty much overnight. Look at his GC results before 2009.

It’s not far off Usain Bolt suddenly contending to win the London Marathon.

Is that when he was standing around waiting for a new bike from the team car? On the previous day nibali couldn’t shake him off and Wiggins wouldn’t attack as sky had the eventual stage winner up the road. So overall i don’t think we can read too much in to that.

Granted he did lose around 30 seconds due to bike, but lost another minute on the climb, and not just to Nibali either. I don’t think Wiggins will be as good this year – he spent a lot of time partying at the end of last season, (and to be fair he’d achieved some amazing things) – and has never had 2 good seasons running on the road. I think he’s lost a bit of hunger this year, but will back next year. May well be wrong though, we’ll see!

Wiggins will not win the Giro or the TdF. Froome will not win the TdF, he will crack under the pressure from others and his own activities.

Why would someone give up doping when they’ve got a system that works? Cantador got caught because he autotransfused blood from pre-season doping. Now he knows to avoid that. He denied and lied throughout the whole saga, and you’re trying to tell me he’s a reformed character, Junkyard. Business as usual.

If we learn anything from the Armstrong saga it should be that testing doesn’t work and athletes dope up to the eyeballs and don’t test positive. Gendarmes, tax inspectors, wives, girlfriends, customs officers, journalists and betrayed “friends” have resulted in far more athletes being outed or confessing than the labs, British Cycling and the UCI put together.

Oh shit, I find myself *almost* agreeing with Edukator. Oh no…

I find it quite heart warming that there’s a whole bunch of you ready to believe it’s all better now (even bet their houses on it, apparently).

Which scenario do you think is most likely?

1. The UCI are shit hot and their blood passpot scheme is the biz and (despite not flagging Armstrongs come back results for expert scrutiny!) so dopers will all be caught so no one dopes anymore. Basically, cycling is now clean.

2. The blood passport scheme means that the dopers have to rein it in and be a lot smarter and take more precautions so as not trigger the *Feds* (i.e. Bandwidth doping) and as a consequence genuine talents have the chance of actually winning something.

3. The blood passport is a smokescreen so we can all hide behind it and claim that cycling really is clean now whilst the dopers are still at it (albeit reined in for the obvious reason that we all know what an epo-fuelled charge looks like these days) and everybody is happy (i.e. Business as usual)

Well scenario 3 would be very sponsor friendly… hmmm.

Wiggins went from being a world class 4 minute rider, who couldn’t climb, to a world class 3 week rider who could keep up with the best doping riders pretty much overnight. Look at his GC results before 2009.

It’s not far off Usain Bolt suddenly contending to win the London Marathon.
No that would be Chris Hoy winning the Tour
He road the giro as part of his Olympic training in 2008 for example and was lead out for Cav – you really think Usain could run a marathon – suddenly everyone is a road expert 🙄
It was also more accurate to say nearly keep up and even now he does not have a change of pace and is obviously not a natural climber and TT his way up at high cadence so he is hard to attack..
Your right when wiggo concentrated on the track he was an average road cyclists and a world class track cyclist. When he changed to focus on the road he became a world class road cyclist and an [ I assume] average track cyclist. he lost a lot of mass as a result of his change in training – which given LA will be viewed as the work of drugs rather than hard work /training. He explained in a numerous interviews the difference in training regimes and how he was doing loads of miles for both but at different intensities but you know that right ? It is not that remarkable given he is a remarkable cyclist – still world record holder for 4000 km and only cyclist to win the TdF and the Olympic Time Trial so yes he must be a cheat.

He denied and lied throughout the whole saga, and you’re trying to tell me he’s a reformed character, Junkyard.

well he is not winning nor the fastest so I shall let the results speak for themselves.

I shall of course be persuaded by the overwhelming body off evidence you have to go with your innuendo and smears that everyone else is cheating FFS even proxy measures such as the averages are down and watts per kg so all you can do is this.

2 is the most likely scenario but some athletes are definitely clean and I believe them. Some I would never believe now and in the past I would not have believed any of them as being clean. It is better it is not perfect. Despite this it is daft to just assume the best must be cheating. To use usain again it is like saying he is a cheat because Ben Johnson was…that is what your evidence is at present.

A Swiss guy has been monitoring cycling for year. He’s got a web site I cna’t find at the moment. He plots climbing rates all the way up climbs based on video for the major tour climbs. His conclusion on the last tour was that the top 15 on the 2012 TDF had performances that indicated sophisticated doping. One example I remember is that an injured Voeckler performed as well as Virenque at his best in the 2012 TDF. The Lille protocol (named after the Festina trial) gave athletes 10-15% more power.

It is not that remarkable given he is a remarkable cyclist – still world record holder for 4000 km and only cyclist to win the TdF and the Olympic Time Trial so yes he must be a cheat

The alternative is that he is more powerful than the other best cyclists in the world even though the others we know were using doping protocols that gave them an extra 50W

The alternative has no evidence though which is a rather important fact and we do not know that the riders wiggo beat this year were all doping you just keep saying they were and present no evidence for it.
Re wattages

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18921784
It is the BBC so you will like it as source 😉

Today they can do the peak of the drug cheats just for shorter times and needing more recovery that is where PEDS generally gave the benefits namely recoveryor stamina if you prefer. If a top athlete rode only one stage of the Tdf Say Nibali or Contador they could rip the legs of folk on that stage [ and get huge peak wattages] but not recover for the next day

I prefer 60 minutes:

Voeckler n’est pas seul à affoler les statistiques. Wiggins et Froome ont également impressionné, développant 430 watts de moyenne dans le col de Peyresourde. Le duo a fait encore plus fort vers Peyragudes (2,95?km à 7,93% de moyenne). Il a atteint 470 watts pendant 7’03”. Si Froome n’avait pas attendu son leader, il aurait pu titiller les 500 watts que seuls jusqu’ici Armstrong, Contador et Pantani ont dépassé.

As for the Beeb they produced a programme in the early nineties in which they exposed how athletes training with colds were killing themselves. It was of course EPO. Then the Beeb followed Armstrong’s lie that his improved power to weight ratio was due to weight loss. The Beeb swallows just anbout about any nonsense athletes dream up and regurgitaes it for the public..

ok we have reached the point where you quote in a language i dont speak and berate the BBC – that article quoted scientists and everything BTW.

nos da

Welsh for goodnight – see pointless

Why would someone give up doping when they’ve got a system that works?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/22363860

Hmmm

Bora da, I lived in Aberystwyth for 7 years. I assume people use auto translators these days.

Even if you are too lazy to translate it you can see Wiggins/Froome, 470W 7’03”. The last bit says Froome would have equalled the 500W of Armstrong, Cantador and Pantani if he hadn’t slowed down to wait for Wiggins.

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/03/biological-passport-effective-fight-or.html?m=1
Posting from phone, but I hope this will show an alternative opinion..

I’m no Wiggins fan, and had been deeply suspicious of Armstrong for years, but I’m not convinced that things are still the same.
I reckon that the sport is cleaner than it has been for years. How long this will last remains to ne seen.

Urrgghh just typed a really long reply and accidentally closed the window. To summarise..

No failed tests – but to be fair this isn’t necessarily indicative of being clean.
Wiggins, Thomas, Rogers, Siutsou etc all ranked very highly in UCI suspicious list based on performances and blood data.
Overall performances are pretty dominating (both individual and as a team), and are very reminiscent of USPS’s train
Regularly beating doping riders, often comprehensively
Hiring ex dopers and doping doctors – either Sky are very naive or they turned a blind eye to their staff’s past.
Sudden improvements to their rider’s performances upon joining, which seem to drop off as soon as they leave Sky

BTW I don’t mean this to be an anti Sky post – other teams are just as bad if not worse – I’m just pointing out that they’re not as squeaky clean as they claim to be. Maybe they are clean, and their spectacular performances are legit. I just find them hard to believe, in a sport that’s historically been dominated by widespread doping.

Either way, if you agree with me or not, there’s a nice piece by Robert Millar here about the Giro.