Viewing 32 posts - 121 through 152 (of 152 total)
  • Why I won't let my 8yo cycle on the road – Chris Boardman
  • daver27
    Free Member

    the cost of motoring is falling as its general election next year, got to make everyone seem better off..

    I was being a bit tongue in cheek with the oil comment..

    Environmental issues will do more to drive petrol/diesel cars off the road than lack of oil.

    anyway, WAY OFF TOPIC!

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Given that I’m currently thinking hard about cycling to school with my own daughter, I think that *much* of it is indeed okay for kids, but the arterial road arrangement is the bit that could do with changing. Hence my post.

    By that I mean that there are plenty of small quiet roads but they all lead out onto big roads at some point. So I think all that needs to change is that they need to link up better. And to be fair quite a few cities do this.

    If you do that then cars still need to share the roads with cyclists, and drivers therefore still need their attitudes adjusted.

    Unless you have absolutely no choice (which in a city is improbable)

    Not really. You can’t get from my house to town or my kids’ school without either a short spell on Rhyd y Penau road (which is fairly busy) or going on St Mellons road which is a ridiculous country lane rat race.

    kcr
    Free Member

    Theres a lot that can be done to make things safer, but for now, its up to us to make ourselves safer.

    Earlier this year I was knocked off my bike by a motorist. It was daylight, I was wearing hi-viz, a helmet and had my headlight and rear light on. Oh, I was also cycling on a segregated pedestrian/bike path (not an on road cycle lane).

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    molgrips
    Free Member

    Theres a lot that can be done to make things safer, but for now, its up to us to make ourselves safer.
    Earlier this year I was knocked off my bike by a motorist.

    He said safeER, not 100% safe. You can never be that.

    jfletch
    Free Member

    Lots if chat about changing drivers attitudes.

    The only way to change attitudes is to change cyclists from being just someone who gets in your way to your friend, your daughter, your father, your colleague, you sister etc…

    I.e. Peoples attitudes won’t change until cycling is a normal thing lots of people do.

    For this to be the case normal people need to see cycling as a safe, efficient, cheap and easy means of transport and this means real infrastructure. Separated lanes not poxy pavement routes that class a cyclist as equal to a pedestrian. You need to be able to jump on a bike in your normal clothes, not worry about being castigated for not wearing a helmet and get to where you need to get to.

    Drivers attitudes will change but not until they are first and foremost cyclists. Dutch drivers don’t magically have more respect and Britain isn’t broken, Dutch drivers just grew up as cyclists. And once more people are cycling things will snowball, there will be more support for harsher penalties for drivers, more support for even more infrastructure, more respect and so on.

    Things can change, we just need to start the ball rolling by spending a modest amount of money now.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    real infrastructure

    On the other hand, we already have infrastructure, people just need to learn how to use it properly.

    aracer
    Free Member

    Show me an example of somewhere that has been successfully achieved without lots of specialist infrastructure, resulting in riding a bike for transport being a normal thing to do for lots of ordinary people and I might just be convinced. And no, countries where people use bicycles because they’re too poor to afford anything else don’t count.

    Meanwhile we have Holland.

    bails
    Full Member

    On the other hand, we already have infrastructure,people just need to learn how to use it properly.

    But we’ve had 60+ years of trying to make people play nice. It’s clearly not working.

    People drive in their thousands to ride their bikes around a closed road on a SkyRide, then they put the bikes back on the car and drive home. They spent loads of money going to Centreparcs and ride bikes around empty roads. People WANT to be safe, they want to FEEL safe, which means separation from motor traffic on anything more than a 20mph, quiet, residential street. (and let’s not forget that the Dutch design streets properly so if you’re mixing bikes and cars then it’s only with cars going to a destination near enough on that street. Through traffic and rat runs are designed out.)

    You surely wouldn’t say that we should rip up the pavements, turn them into more road lanes and then tell pedestrians to ‘learn to use it properly’.

    kcr
    Free Member

    we already have infrastructure, people just need to learn how to use it properly

    My local cycling infrastructure is inconsistent, badly designed and poorly implemented. It’s simply not good enough to get a critical mass of people cycling safely.

    Here’s an example of something that was recently implemented as part of the state of the art tram system in Edinburgh:

    Cyclists have to leave the main road (on the right of the picture (to avoid the narrowing gap between the tram lines and the kerb) cycle down the “dedicated lane” (a.k.a station taxi rank) cross the tram tracks at right angles and then rejoin the traffic flow on the right of the tracks to continue on their way. This is cycling infrastructure for a 21st century traffic project that took years to plan and deliver. Cycling was obviously not taken seriously as part of this process.

    There’s another example of poor infrastructure on the west of Edinburgh, where a key cycle route crosses one of the busy arterial roads. To get from one side of the road to the other involves a 500 metre detour traversing 4 exits used by motor traffic, two pedestrian road crossings, and one road crossing with no pedestrian signals.

    Effective cycling infrastructure has to be safe, practical and universal. We are just tinkering around the edges in the UK. It’s not about teaching people properly; if you have to teach people how to use the cycling infrastructure, it’s already failed.

    brooess
    Free Member

    Now, fast forward to last Friday, i’m riding to work, traffic is light, there are 2 vans maybe 200m behind me and a car heading towards the junction i’m turning into by a bus stop, he’s a good 200m away too.
    I turn in and its covered in diesel and i hit the deck quicker than i can blink. bike gets mangled and i’m lying prone (but un-injured) in the middle of the road.
    NO ONE stops, not one. The guy approaching the junction who saw me crash slows to let the vans past, then drives round me as if i was road kill without a second glance. if anyone had been behind him and not seen me crash, they probably would have driven straight into me.
    The only person to see if i was alright was a chap at the bus stop who looked up from his phone for 2 seconds to say “alright?” and that was it.

    I’d like to see a serious psychological/neuroscience study into what happens to people’s thought processes when they get into a modern car – this lack of empathy/understanding of other people’s needs that seems so prevalent is almost psychopathic in it’s lack of basic human kindness… I suspect there’s something about isolation from the outside world that comes from the sheer size and level of protection which fully detaches drivers from any sense of connection with the outside world. I’ve said it before but the level of discomfort and inconvenience on rush-hour trains and the Tube is quantifiably worse than driving but you never see the same levels of anger and aggression – and my guess is that you know you’ll get a punch or at least have to deal with the consequences of your bad behaviour with a bunch of dirty looks and tuts from the people around you 🙂 You have no protection if you act like an anti-social git, so you don’t act anti-socially – simple.

    That said, I actually think cycling is winning at the moment. Massively. New cyclists I talk to are really quite shocked about the treatment they receive. I think they’re more powerful than me when the complain about it to friends and family because they’re ‘normal people’ rather than mad-keen cyclists…

    The sheer numbers I see commuting and out at weekends in London shows that despite the ranters, the aggression, the negative media, the lack of political leadership, the masses are getting increasingly keen on cycling. People are ignoring all the negativity and getting on with it anyway…

    Wide passes and staying back till there’s space is getting noticeably more frequent IMO – last year and this year especially. There’s definitely a trend towards deliberate courtesy. The aggressive drivers are, I think, getting worse in the levels of aggression, but they really are in a minority (and I suspect they know it). Social norms are very powerful and actually a campaign suggesting that being anti-cyclist and an aggressive driver puts you in a disliked minority that everyone else looks down on could be quite powerful…

    Imagine just how far it will go when and if we finally get the politicians, police and media onside…

    jfletch
    Free Member

    On the other hand, we already have infrastructure, people just need to learn how to use it properly.

    It’s often hard for us enthusiasts to see the need for infrastructure or why what we have is bobbins. Turning right on a main road or using a roundabout may be easy and safe if you are confident to take the primary position, brake and signal at the same time and keep up with the traffic but put yourself in in the shoes of a 50yo woman or a mum taking her 3 kids to school.

    The example of good I like is when I first arrived at the main railway station in The Hauge. I was able to hire a bike and ride to my destination on the main route to my destination, about 5 miles, without once coming into conflict with a car and only using shared space on tiny residential streets near my destination. There isn’t a single UK City where that could happen.

    DezB
    Free Member

    “Tomorrow: is it safe to ride with headphones?” Oh dear oh dear 🙄

    lemonysam
    Free Member

    “Tomorrow: is it safe to ride with headphones?” Oh dear oh dear

    Why “Oh dear”? So far the points I’ve seen the BBC raising have been fairly reasonable and well made – why should the headphones be different?

    It’s good that this discussion is happening surely? This is part of the “Changing drivers attitudes” thing that we’ve been banging on about for years.

    DezB
    Free Member

    why should the headphones be different?

    Because, again it’s making the cyclist at fault.

    I’ve been commuting 20odd years with headphones and not one single problem has been caused by it (to me or anyone else).

    plus-one
    Full Member

    Changing motorists attitudes is the way forward… But seeing the attitudes on a daily basis we’re on a hiding to nothing

    🙁

    aracer
    Free Member

    Where are you seeing that?

    DezB
    Free Member

    Where are you seeing that?

    I saw it on the telly coming out of the Minchin’s mouth (just after a feature I missed, which appeared to be about getting motorists to ride bikes around, judging by the last few seconds of it.)

    lemonysam
    Free Member

    Because, again it’s making the cyclist at fault.

    Only if they say, “cycling with headphones is dangerous” if they say “cycling with headphones is not dangerous” then it’s debunking a commonly held misconception about cycling.

    DezB
    Free Member

    I just don’t think it should be part of the debate. It’s an irrelevance.

    aracer
    Free Member

    DezB +1 – it’s just another way of avoiding mentioning the elephant

    daver27
    Free Member

    Did you catch the guy on there who’s been riding around with cameras on? “No ifs no buts, No coconuts” 🙄

    He struck me as someone who thinks he’s doing good, but was actually quite confrontational when there was little need. hitting a van roof for example, yeah he was close, but if it was that dodgy an overtake, why take your hands off the bars and potentially lose control to instigate confrontation? granted getting punched probably wasn’t what he was after, but i couldn’t help think he deserved it! if he’d just carried on riding, all that would have happened was…nothing!

    Don’t get me wrong, some car drivers are bad, some are good, as are cyclists, we just need to get along.

    imnotverygood
    Full Member

    “Tomorrow: is it safe to ride with headphones?” Oh dear oh dear

    So the BBC have been putting together a reasonably unbiased view of cycling safety. All of a sudden you don’t like them looking at something you want to do in case they reckon it is unsafe. Nothing like approaching a subject with an open mind…..

    DezB
    Free Member

    That’s what I said is it?

    imnotverygood
    Full Member

    That’s what I said is it?

    Well let’s look at the options. They examine the problem and decide that wearing headphones has no impact on safety = cyclists not to blame.
    Or they find evidence that wearing headphones increases the risk of an accident= cyclist doing something which impinges on their safety. So it would be a good idea to accept that element of responsibility and act accordingly.

    What’s not to like?

    DezB
    Free Member

    I say it’s an irrelevance to a safety debate.
    You really think, with all the **** problems we get on the roads, checking whether a cyclist listening to music has any bearing whatsoever on the issues?
    Can they investigate the safety of each and every cyclist and the environment they ride in?

    lemonysam
    Free Member

    I say it’s an irrelevance to a safety debate.

    It’s relevant because it’s such a common talking point in the existing debate. I agree that it’s a tiny point but that didn’t stop the bandwagon being jumped on in London last year.

    amedias
    Free Member

    Because you can guarantee that the next day won’t be :

    “tomorrow – is it safe driving with the radio on”

    As DezB says, it’s a distractionary, not-relevant, picking on minutiae, and avoiding the real issues which is where the focus should be.

    D0NK
    Full Member

    yes, having previously disliked bike paths, like any recent convert I’m now an evangelist

    oi! I resemble that comment 🙂

    But thats my point, you generally can be almost as quick and efficient using smaller roads because you are going the same speed on a bike, you don’t need a trunk road to do 20mph on a bike.

    you can get up to 20mph on smaller roads but you can’t stay there, junctions, crossings, side roads, pinch points, parked cars etc etc. Big straight roads are faster and (should be) safer for cyclists aswell as drivers.

    “Tomorrow: is it safe to ride with headphones?” Oh dear oh dear

    +1, headphones vs car radio, it’s like the helmet and hi viz thing, applying rules to one set of (outgroup) road users but ignoring the others, as has been said it’s a distraction. I will be amazed if they say “headphones, no worries crack on” I will be surprised if they say “headphones can be just as distracting as car radios”, my guess is they will say “music can be distracting” without mention of car radios – or any of the more important safety issues.

    bm0p700f
    Free Member

    If every driver had to retake there driving test (never going to happen) mind maybe many of the inconsideate drivers would be off the road. The drivers that squeeze past are for the most part not being malicious but they are not thinking. You see it when they pass parked cars with on coming traffic and get a bit stuck. It happened to today in the village I live in. Lack of thought about what ahead and what might be ahead is the problem. cylists to be honest can be guilty of that too but bikes rarely kill other, cars do though.

    A proper driver awareness campaign is needed to change attitudes and get drivers to think, that all it has to achieve.

    Cars don’t have high vis jackets on them so cyclist should not need them too. Good lighting when it dim or dark should be all thats needed. If a driver fails to observe what is around them then they should simply be removed from the road. As I said before cyclist rarely kill other but a car is deadly weapon which is why a licence is granted to drive it. Licences are not removed easily enough as it seen that a car is essential today. It most certainly is not essenital people just think it is.

    moshimonster
    Free Member

    I certainly won’t let my 5 year old daughter ride on the road, especially on the way to school. Too many mental drivers around, especially during the morning rush. RTA’s on the road outside the school are almost a daily occurrence.

    I rarely ride on the road myself anymore, just too much traffic and general ignorance toward all other road users for my liking. It certainly wasn’t like that 25 years ago when I was cycling to Uni/work daily. There was much less traffic and much less road rage (probably related).

    daver27
    Free Member

    ^^ i reckon BANNING the use of cars to take kids to schools or within a mile of their school should happen.
    Most people live near to their schools and choose to drive (my neighbour lives 150 yards from the entrance and regularly drives her daughters to school :roll:) and a mile walk is not a big deal if they don’t.

    midlifecrashes
    Full Member

    ^^ i reckon BANNING the use of cars to take kids to schools or within a mile of their school should happen.
    Most people live near to their schools and choose to drive (my neighbour lives 150 yards from the entrance and regularly drives her daughters to school :roll:) and a mile walk is not a big deal if they don’t.

    Not always bad. There certainly are parents who drive kids to school and then head back home in time for daytime TV, but in the main it’s parents dropping their kids then needing the car to get to work in time often miles away, the extra 20mins walking home again to pick up the car can be an issue.

Viewing 32 posts - 121 through 152 (of 152 total)

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