Viewing 40 posts - 81 through 120 (of 152 total)
  • Why I won't let my 8yo cycle on the road – Chris Boardman
  • wors
    Full Member

    According to Dirk on the BBC comments, Cycling is not in the British Blood! Right I’m off to buy some golf clubs and scrap my bikes…. 🙄

    cookeaa
    Full Member

    Increaesd traffic volume.

    Well Duh. But why exactly is it that increased motorized transport automatically equate to worsening attitudes, less consideration for others, a greater sense of entitlement?

    I can’t help thinking some sort of general malaise is becoming a deeper and deeper part of British cultural identity, we’ve become quite a nasty, self centred bunch…

    If our general use of the roads and the way we behave towards one another when driving, reflects the national psyche then the future is looking pretty grim IMO…
    But I don’t want to run away and hide from it all on a sustrans route, I’d rather live in the country I grew up in (rose tinted hindsight) and feel safe cycling on the road…

    aracer
    Free Member

    I’m suggesting cyclists need some additional special provision because it works in Holland (and there isn’t anything that fundamentally different about Holland or the people who live there). That is a practical solution which has been proven to work. Everything else is unproven theory.

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    aracer
    Free Member

    Which is one of the classic fallacious arguments about the Dutch model not working here.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    (and there isn’t anything that fundamentally different about Holland or the people who live there)

    There might well be, according to the map.

    dunmail
    Free Member

    This weekend I did around 200Km on the roads and had just one “incident”, pretty well every other driver hung back if I indicated that it wasn’t safe for them as I could see vehicles coming the other way then I’d wave them on and we’d acknowledge each other with a wave of thanks.

    Some people (and I use that word rather than motorists) have little time or patience for anyone else. When driving they see anything that gets in the way of their inalienable right to drive how they see fit as something to bully out of their way, any accident is always the other person’s fault as they can’t possibly be in the wrong. Fortunately they are a very small minority.

    aracer
    Free Member

    @molgrips, not a fundamental one for most of the places in the UK where this could happen.

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Thinking of Cardiff, I’m struggling to think what I’d do to improve cycling infrastructure. There’s a couple of main arteries that’d benefit from a big alternative cycle lane, but beyond that – the normal roads do just fine. The problem is that most drivers only drive on the arteries and think ‘sod that, I’m not cycling along Newport Road’ for example.

    howsyourdad1
    Free Member

    Cardiff’s infrastructure fine for who? An experienced cyclist such as yourself or an 8 year old on the way to school?

    daver27
    Free Member

    As seems to be the main argument (not read the whole thread) Drivers attitudes have to change.

    I’ll give you a few recent examples from a drivers point of view – with me being a cyclist – and a cycling point of view

    A few weeks ago now, i followed a group of guys down a descent near me (aptly titled on Strava “we’re all going to die”) the rear 2 guys were riding really close and going at 40+ mph in a 40 limit. i backed right off them sensing something was not right with their ability or knowledge of the area, sure enough, one guy loses it not 5 seconds later and runs off the road at the next corner into a ditch, cartwheels down the road, destroys his bike and ends up half lying in the road. i stopped sharpish, hazards on, backed up to stop the traffic as its a blind corner. made sure he was ok and his mates came back. once all was sorted, i carried on safe in the knowledge no one was going to run him over and he was ok, with a nice warm fuzzy feeling for doing a good deed.

    Now, fast forward to last Friday, i’m riding to work, traffic is light, there are 2 vans maybe 200m behind me and a car heading towards the junction i’m turning into by a bus stop, he’s a good 200m away too.
    I turn in and its covered in diesel and i hit the deck quicker than i can blink. bike gets mangled and i’m lying prone (but un-injured) in the middle of the road.
    NO ONE stops, not one. The guy approaching the junction who saw me crash slows to let the vans past, then drives round me as if i was road kill without a second glance. if anyone had been behind him and not seen me crash, they probably would have driven straight into me.
    The only person to see if i was alright was a chap at the bus stop who looked up from his phone for 2 seconds to say “alright?” and that was it.

    I think unless you are actually an avid cyclist driving a car, attitudes suck towards cyclists, which i can understand to a point (we all get riled by big groups of roadies at the weekend right?). But it seems to be of late going to a whole new level where common decency and looking out for other human beings seems to be left behind, seems like being behind a car steering wheel is slowly robbing people of any moral standards and cycling is seen as terrorism on the roads.
    I could not and Would not drive around someone who had crashed directly in front of me without at least checking they are able to get up.

    I fully agree with Boardman tho. Riding in a City is deadly, but it has nothing to do with bad infrastructure. we all have eyes and can see hazards, but, we are the vulnerable soft fleshy lumps not protected by a big metal box. and therefore need to be given the space and consideration required to go about our lives safely, just as any decent driver would do to other drivers.
    I’m glad my commute is mostly Rural save for the last mile as my interaction with other traffic is minimal now.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    Maybe if traffic laws were properly policed and enforced with appropriate sentences, so that drivers faced a genuine risk of a month or two without a car and the consequent impact on jobs etc, then drivers attitudes would change.

    I would also expect an equal enforcement of rules relating to cyclists. Maybe if some of the asshats who ride stupidly/illegally had to fork out for some fines, maybe sell a bike to pay them, then their attitudes might change.

    There are too many with a sense of entitlement and/or righteousness on both sides of the argument.

    project
    Free Member

    I live not far away from CB,and there are quite a few quiet roads, and dedicated off road cycle paths close to his house, our local council also has free cycle training for adults and children and over the summer me and fellow volunteers have handed out freebies, bells, hi viz, cycle maps, and info about cycling around the wirral, and quite a few people have said theyre afraid of trafic, they fail to realise they are traffic when in a vehicle or on a bike, and my point is cycle quiet roads, get trained,build up confidence and get out on the bike, more bike make motorists aware we exist,tell your freinds and workmates about the benefit of cycling for health , the environmnet, encorage them to rent a bike to try one available from quite a few local stations and almost every street in liverpol or so they seem.

    project
    Free Member

    Maybe if traffic laws were properly policed and enforced with appropriate sentences

    Today driving home, pathetic idiots flashing me and others behind because those nasty fund raising POLICE where manning a speed check on a 30 mph road.

    and further on a 20 mph speed limit through a small village,past a school, surgery and shops, again a pathetic woman flashing her lights like a demented christmas tree, because i was doing 20 mph.

    Sometimes you just cant win at educating stupid people.

    lemonysam
    Free Member

    Thinking of Cardiff, I’m struggling to think what I’d do to improve cycling infrastructure.

    The problem is that most drivers only drive on the arteries and think ‘sod that, I’m not cycling along Newport Road’

    Haven’t you just contradicted yourself? There’s nothing you can think of to improve cycling, here’s a major arterial route which isn’t perceived as safe to cycle.

    I’m not familiar with the road in question so I might be missing something.

    daver27
    Free Member

    Why would you want to cycle on a major arterial road tho? you are on a bike, use better, safer roads!
    Major roads are to move cars and large vehicles quickly and efficiently, Why expose yourself to that?
    Unless you have absolutely no choice (which in a city is improbable) use other routes, its more fun, safer and probably quicker!

    HoratioHufnagel
    Free Member

    Major roads are to move cars and large vehicles quickly and efficiently, Why expose yourself to that?

    Maybe you want to get where you are going quickly and efficiently EVEN WHEN USING A BICYCLE

    lemonysam
    Free Member

    Why would you want to cycle on a major arterial road tho?

    I cycle a major arterial route every day, one with decent cycling provision. It’s a great way of getting to work quickly and easily.

    Scotswood Road in Newcastle by the by.

    richpips
    Free Member

    get trained,build up confidence and get out on the bike, more bike make motorists aware we exist,

    I agree. The more cyclists of all ages there are on the roads, the more likely provision will be made for cyclists in road design.

    If there are few(er) cyclists using the road, I can understand the argument by transport planners that number of bikes on the road does not warrant a seperate provision for them.

    daver27
    Free Member

    But thats my point, you generally can be almost as quick and efficient using smaller roads because you are going the same speed on a bike, you don’t need a trunk road to do 20mph on a bike.

    My comments earlier in my previous post about crashing and car drivers not seeming to give a damn about cyclists can also be flipped around to cyclists who seemingly put themselves in danger or are confrontational because they are “within the law” even if its monumentally stupid to do it.

    Legally i could ride out of Brighton on the A23 or up the A3 from Guildford on my bike, would i? no chance.

    Everyone has a brain, so why moan about Trunk roads being dangerous when there is probably a much safer quieter route that is more fun and takes maybe a minute or 2 longer?

    i don’t see the point in putting yourself in danger because its not illegal.

    aracer
    Free Member

    When is it going to happen?

    lemonysam
    Free Member

    i don’t see the point in putting yourself in danger because its not illegal.

    But I’m not putting myself in danger because they’ve made provision for cyclists – which is what we’re talking about, right?

    edit: In fact I’d wager it’s safer and less stress than a smaller, narrower road with more junctions and parked cars to contend with.

    aracer
    Free Member

    I suppose, yes I can understand the line of thought which results in them being so wrong.

    Gosh, imagine the outrage from motorists if you did something to their roads which resulted in their journeys being a minute or two longer. If we’re going to do it properly there should be good separate cycling provision alongside the main trunk roads going exactly where cyclists want to go. That just might encourage more people to see cycling as a viable transport option rather than something you only do because you’re an enthusiast. Which is the whole point really.

    daver27
    Free Member

    its fine riding along ones that keeps you separated! although, does that road really have a cycle lane on the pavement AND the road? seems a bit silly, just have it on the pavement!

    i’m just saying there are plenty of people that choose to ride on roads that its technically legal to ride on even though its a properly stupid thing to do.

    accidents happen, but you have to reduce the chances yourself, so at the very least your are above blame should the worst happen.

    I for one will go the safe way rather than the few minutes quicker way (to the point i’ve bought a CX bike so i can stay off the roads this winter on my commute)

    howsyourdad1
    Free Member

    If there are few(er) cyclists using the road, I can understand the argument by transport planners that number of bikes on the road does not warrant a seperate provision for them.

    I don’t think that’s entirely true. Often it is that there is not the available money to build provision. A political decision. As has been shown with ‘road’ infrastructure and good cycling infrastructure if you build it people will use it.

    lemonysam – Member
    Why would you want to cycle on a major arterial road tho?
    I cycle a major arterial route every day, one with decent cycling provision. It’s a great way of getting to work quickly and easily.
    Scotswood Road in Newcastle by the by.

    I would argue that is relatively poor cycling provision sorry

    lemonysam
    Free Member

    seems a bit silly, just have it on the pavement!

    It has two on each side, means that those who want to ride on the pavement can and those who want to ride in the road can. It works very well in my experience. It even allows for two way traffic on both sides of the road so less crossing and re-crossing to get where you’re going.

    i’m just saying there are plenty of people that choose to ride on roads that its technically legal to ride on even though its a properly stupid thing to do.

    Agreed but where we seem to differ is that I’m saying that it might be a good idea to make them safer, especially where they are obvious commuter routes into a city centre.

    accidents happen, but you have to reduce the chances yourself, so at the very least your are above blame should the worst happen.

    Most Lots* of the urban accidents I can think of involving cyclists happened on rat-runs rather than on arterial roads to be honest.

    *I totted up and I reckon it’s roughly equal actually.

    dunmail
    Free Member

    @daver27: It’s limiting the risk, my commute is a mixture of side roads; main roads and cycle paths. It also happens to be pretty much the most direct route when you look at it on a map but that’s more by chance than anything.

    People confuse risk with danger, if there’s risk then it simply can’t be safe. Risk is simply the likelihood of a danger happening not the absence of safety: you could get hit by a car – that’s the danger but the risk (probability) of it happening is small, very small. In over forty years of cycling I’ve had exactly one accident due to a car – there was no contact well I had the choice of riding in to the side of the car turning left across me or biting pavement and chose the latter.

    kcr
    Free Member

    what’s easier to change? Drivers attitudes or the infrastructure?

    Tackling either of these in the UK is just a massive vote loser at the moment. We’re light years behind the best in the world in terms of attitude and infrastructure, and I don’t think we will make the quantum leap required to change that.

    I think that driverless cars might actually offer a better chance of a safer future for cyclists. If it is demonstrated that driverless cars are significantly safer, insurance premiums for human drivers could increase enough to price them off the road. It won’t matter how much people complain, economics will make it happen.

    daver27
    Free Member

    agreed that it would be a good idea to make these routes safer, but in the mean time, because it isn’t going to happen any time soon, find a quieter route that will probably be more fun!
    I’m one of these people that will go out of my way to avoid bits of road like that if there is a better alternative (read quieter more fun etc) if i have to get up earlier and home later, so be it!

    My commute is now 20 minutes longer on the cross bike, 80% off road and a whole heap of fun. Saying that, i did have my first crash on the road in years last week on it. oops… 😆

    Theres a lot that can be done to make things safer, but for now, its up to us to make ourselves safer.

    GavinB
    Full Member

    Tackling either of these in the UK is just a massive vote loser at the moment

    I agree, and less than a year away from a general election, means that being seen to be ‘soft’ on cyclists or ‘hard’ against the poor oppressed motorists is political suicide.

    But then again, if we get a coalition with UKIP involved in any small way we’ll be fine, as they have such progressive policies on all of this don’t they? Ah…

    amedias
    Free Member

    I think that driverless cars might actually offer a better chance of a safer future for cyclists. If it is demonstrated that driverless cars are significantly safer, insurance premiums for human drivers could increase enough to price them off the road. It won’t matter how much people complain, economics will make it happen.

    Imagine the rage that will build up inside those driverless cars that *refuse* to overtake a cyclist on the road because it’s unsafe, where before the human would have squeezed/bullied their way through.

    Still agree with them, but I reckon that is a very real hurdle that we will have to overcome, getting people to ‘calm the flip down’ in general would be a good start.

    daver27
    Free Member

    Anyhoo, Oil will become so scarce in the next 10-15 years or so that cars will go the way of the dinosaurs and we’ll all be forced to cycle. 😆

    deadkenny
    Free Member

    molgrips – Member
    Bristol’s quite hilly and that’s one of the largest cycling cities is it not? It’s also bloody congested and crowded, but still plenty of bikes.

    Though they’re all nicked bikes.

    ahwiles
    Free Member

    daver27 – Member

    Anyhoo, Oil will become so scarce in the next 10-15 years or so…

    this just isn’t true.

    (i know you’ve put a smiley there, but it’s surprising how many people believe this)

    we’ve got something like 60 years left of the easy stuff, but we’re already going after the hard stuff (example: the Alberta tar-sands), and there’s chuffing loads of that.

    (extracting it is an environmental disaster, but clearly we don’t care)

    imnotverygood
    Full Member

    A few weeks ago I was riding down a narrow street with parked cars either side. About a 100 yard stretch, not wide enough for a car to pass a bike. About 10 yards before the end of the parked cars a car appears and piles onto narrow bit. Funnily enough he has to stop because I am there. As I inch the bike past him, he winds down his window and starts screaming “OOR ROADS, OOR ROADS” (he was Scottish)

    Kinda sums up the problem with attitudes.

    daver27
    Free Member

    @ahwiles

    by that i meant it will get so expensive, cars will be priced off the road, not that we will run out.

    GavinB
    Full Member

    Good article.

    People wear helmets and high vis as they feel it’s all they can do to keep themselves safe. It shows just how far away Britain is from embracing cycling as a normal and convenient form of transport.

    ahwiles
    Free Member

    it’s already profitable to dig up and process tar at the current (low) price of what? $90/barrel.

    oil is about as expensive as it’s going to get for a long, long time.

    even if prices doubled (which is unlikely), it’d mean a price/litre of what, £1.60? maybe less?

    we’d hardly notice.

    GavinB
    Full Member

    @daver27 – except that the real price of motoring is falling.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/britain-driven-on-to-roads-by-falling-cost-of-motoring-1681052.html

    I agree that the situation is very changeable, but unless a government fancies hiking up VED to the point that even economical cars are too expensive to run, and fancies putting most oil companies out of business prematurely, then people will continue to use motorised vehicles as a primary mode of transport.

    amedias
    Free Member

    @imnotverygood

    I took great delight in making someone reverse after doing that to me the other day, I was 85% of the way down the road, he started to turn in, briefly braked, saw me, and carried on, so did I. We came to a stop head to head with him just over a cars length into the road and he gave me a dirty look and then wound down his window and asked why I didn’t wait for him!?!

    I told him I was nearly at the end when he pulled in and he should have waited for me, just like if I had been a car, then he spouted some nonsense about having right of way so I decided at that point not to squeeze past, told him my bike didn’t have a reverse gear and stood my ground. We had a bit of a glaring match but he did eventually reverse.

    What made it even sweeter was that while he was reversing a couple more cars followed me down the road so he had to wait for them too 🙂

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