Viewing 28 posts - 161 through 188 (of 188 total)
  • Why don't you ride trailquests ?
  • trailbreak-martin
    Free Member

    …either live with that and get on with having a charmingly Victorian niche event or you consider dragging the format kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.

    We ran our Navigator series from the early 90s until just a couple of years ago. At their peak the events could attract over 400 riders, but this dwindled to under 100 per event in later years. We tried several approaches to update and broaden the appeal of the events, including allowing GPS and introducing set course sections. None of these really brought in new riders though, and in general, any changes we made were unpopular with established riders (particularly the fixed course sections!). In the end it just became clear that the events were no longer viable for us, given that we are a business have to make living from our events. Which isn’t to say that they can’t carry on happily as an enthusiast run format (and I hope they do), but I don’t see them becoming a big thing again any time soon. I don’t think you can change them too much without effectively scrapping the format and starting something new from scratch, as the people who love doing them don’t want them to change.

    In the end, after giving it many years of thought, I think we came to the conclusion that it was just natural evolution. These events became popular at time when mountain biking anywhere outside of a race involved getting hold of a map and exploring, whether that was your local area or further afield. TQs, Navigators etc, were a natural extension of that and added an extra dimension to the nature of the sport.

    Mountain biking has changed enormously since then. It’s moved away from the ‘outdoor pursuits’ world to something much more service industry led, and fragmented into a dozen or more different sub genres along the way. Open hill riding of any sort is a smaller part of the picture these days, and in an events context, the masses don’t want to read maps and don’t even see it as essential skill for MTBing. The more independent bikers who still like to get out exploring and do their own thing, by their nature, are less likely to get involved in events in the first place.

    I think BWD is about right, (even if his phrasing is a little narky). Navigation events still exist because there are still people riding who were there at a particular time in mountain biking. I don’t say that in a sniffy way, because I remember that period too and it was a good time. I think it would take a major revival in self-sufficient outdoor pursuits as a whole though to see any real growth in MTB navigation events now.

    stilltortoise
    Free Member

    If you can read a map then a GPS is redundant.

    I have never ridden with a GPS but I don’t agree with this. I can read a map and work out that to go from checkpoint X to checkpoint Y I need to go down a track for 2 km, pass through 2 gates, turn right after the fifth wall, cross the field diagonally to another gate, bear right to another gate before picking up the 3rd track on the left etc. My problem is I can’t bloomin’ well remember all that so I’m always stopping to check the next couple of instructions. Granted that is my poor memory, but is a great reason why a GPS would help.

    cakefest
    Free Member

    I’ve done a few Polaris events and Trailquests, and I enjoy them. I like to navigate and ride based on my decisions. I also have done waymarked courses and have enjoyed them too. Both are fun but in very different ways.

    I often sit on top of the hills near Builth Wells spinning along following 799 other riders in the marathon over there, thinking why it’s so popular. For many riders now it represents a big effort to ride that distance in that terrain. Maybe MTBers now just don’t ride the distances that they used to. Some of us do, but some don’t. We’ve evolved and will continue to do so.

    But I also think MTBers have evolved as part of a general lifestyle difference. Many of us have put our UK road maps at the back of the cupboard and now use satnav to drive to trail centres that tell us which way to ride – Double down arrow and ‘Watch out! Dangerous descent!!’ It’s very easy to do that, or even to just ride the same routes in the woods near me. Compared to an easy narrated/pointed follow-me option it’s really hard to even think about using a map when most people may not know how to (I’m not saying being able to do SAS class navigation, just enough to get around).

    And does the naming of some of the naviational events put people off at all? The word ‘Trailquest’ especially the ‘quest’ part sounds a bit like a role playing game and conjures up images of beards, map boards and buffalo jackets. Whereas ‘Hell of the North Cotswolds’ clearly sounds like some massive challenge – ok it seems in reality it may not be. But for some of my mates who do HONC it represents an early season target to socialise and test themselves out. It doesn’t seem to matter to most that it’s on minor roads or poor quality bridleways.

    Not sure how to solve things or move forwards, but it sounds like there are social powers swirling around that have affected many of this type of event. Polaris seems to have died a death despite being incredibly popular only 10 years ago. But then there were no/few trail centres back then, and what may now be seen as a tough way to do things (navigation) was more of the norm.

    Perhaps navigational events need to change the way they are branded, marketed, and even diversify to include part waymarked, part naviational stages. Not sure if TransWales is more like that or not, with its special timed stages.

    Very interesting stuff.

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    rightplacerighttime
    Free Member

    Granted that is my poor memory, but is a great reason why a GPS would help.

    You’ve still got to look at the GPS – and it’s not like Nav in a car where the unit already knows the network of routes, so do you sit down for half an hour before you start and program the route in? And what if you get halfway round and decide you need to change your route? Do you stop for another 15 minutes to programme a new route (thereby using up even more time so you have to change it again?).

    Learning to read the map is a skill that you get better at – seeing past extraneous detail and concentrating on the important bits, and map-memory is also something you can improve.

    Martin is probably right about decreasing numbers, in that at the peak of popularity of TQ there was less competition from other events, but I think Trailbreak also made the decision to follow the relatively easy money through their Trail RIdes and Sportives and didn’t pay enough attention to the quality of their Navigator events – thus making a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy.

    Also, the whole marketing direction of mountain biking doesn’t do TQ any favours. The message through the mags is all about all mountain bikes, trail centres etc, which is all fine, but they really aren’t interested in covering TQ/MTBO type stuff so it’s true that many newbies to mountainbiking don’t hear much about it. OTOH whenever I speak to newbies after events, they almost always tell me they enjoyed it. Ironic really.

    franki
    Free Member

    Mountain biking has changed enormously

    I think this has a lot to do with why there’s a huge amount of mountainbikers that would never entertain the idea of entering a Trailquest.
    In the early days of the sport, you went out with a map and found routes in the hills to ride and I could be wrong, but I think a greater proportion of riders were “cyclists” rather than “bikers” if you get my drift. I used to pore over the o.s. map for hours planning road rides, let alone mtb rides.
    The move towards bigger and gnarlier and quick thrill type of riding has brought a whole new crowd into mountainbiking who I don’t ever see being convinced that TQ = fun.

    stilltortoise
    Free Member

    My experience of GPS is from WAAAYYYY back in the day when they were massive units that were still being scrambled by the US military. I then skipped car Satnavs and outdoor GPS units to what I now have on my Smartphone, so maybe I’m assuming you can do something that isn’t possible BUT I did assume that it was quick and easy to plot a route on a GPS at the start of the trail quest and quick and easy to change half way round. I also know that they have arrows on telling you where and when to turn. That to me sounds easier to follow at pace than a map on a map board.

    As I said above, I’m not a GPS lover or user when biking and I enjoy navigating by map only. I just don’t accept that GPS will not give an advantage in these kind of events and allow someone to make more of the riding. I DO understand that some people simply prefer the navigational element using the map only.

    rightplacerighttime
    Free Member

    The only time (I think) that a GPS would give an advantage is when person setting the course has used one to put the course out! (which IMO shouldn’t be done)

    I’ve had discussions with organisers before when I’ve not found a control where I was expecting to find it and they’ve said “but we used a GPS” (mainly in adventure races actually) – when the competitors themselves where not allowed to use a GPS. The reason that this is wrong is that actually maps do not always correspond exactly with GPS readings, because maps are an *interpretation* of what is on the ground. For example, roads are not really as wide in real life as they are shown on the map and corners might be exaggerated on the map to help the person using it. I’ve had similar problems where organisers have used 1:25,000 maps to set the course, but the competitors have been given 1:50,000 maps and somehow been expected to find controls when they don’t have the information available to the course planner. (sorry if this is getting a bit technical, but it is relavant to those taking part, even if they don’t realise it).

    Organisers should use the same navigation aids to plan/put the course out as the competitors have to follow it.

    Doug
    Free Member

    All day lift assisted navigation event in the Alps. PDS, Les Arcs. Bigger points for places you have to climb to yourself.

    jond
    Free Member

    I think franki’s got it about right – I was doing the trailbreak events in the late 90’s/early 00’s and there seemed quite a mix of people doing it – if you went mtbing then it was mostly looking for likely bridleways and riding them. As someone I think’s mentioned, anyone doing cyclocross might be interested – possibly some roadies, given that it’s generally less technical, too.

    The ‘I can’t imagine…’, closed mind attitude is a bit sad but I guess that’s the biking equivalent of drinking lager 😉 I guess you’ll always get people minding up their mind from a position of ignorance (as in lack of knowledge). I’ve ridden regularly in Swinley (with bobmbc or otherwise) and did a lot of the Welsh trailcentres some years ago (camping over a very cold week in december :o), and the TQ events were some of the most enjoyable riding I’ve dome..come to think about it, that was why I bought my first lot of Lumicycles. I partly stopped ‘cos my TQ partner moved away, tho’ I did some of the short (1.5 hr) summer event events solo…. but the next time I thought about them trailbreak had stopped doing them.
    The combination of not running a car for some years (tho’ swinley’s relatively near), and losing my mtb mojo (such as it was- being concerned over twisting about twisting a dodgy knee…and crappy neck, for that matter) I’ve largely given up mtbing for road-riding on a recumbent – I really can’t be bothered to get over to swinley for the same old stuff. So to that extent I *can* imagine doing TQs again – whoever posted the trailtrax link – thanks, that might get me out 😉

    RustySpanner
    Full Member

    I like puzzles & I like bimbling, so it sounds like fun.

    One with decent scenery, longer time limit, a route with lotsoff offroad options and quiet roads would be a great day out, I reckon.

    The image doesn’t bother me BTW & you usually get good cake at village halls.

    large418
    Free Member

    The very fact that this thread has got to 5 pages shows to me that many people (on here) have an opinion on Trailquests (and their ilk). I think trailbreak-martin has got it bang on – MTB is changing, and TQ is not what most riders are now looking for (that also explains why the age group of people doing TQs is generally 35+).

    So, the options on increasing participation in TQs are:
    close trail centres (not popular)
    encourage mags to “make TQ trendy”
    get existing participants to smile more
    change the name to “Hell of the Trail” or “Adventure MegaChallenge” or something a little more exciting

    BadlyWiredDog
    Full Member

    So, the options on increasing participation in TQs are:
    close trail centres (not popular)
    encourage mags to “make TQ trendy”
    get existing participants to smile more
    change the name to “Hell of the Trail” or “Adventure MegaChallenge” or something a little more exciting

    No, the option is to change the event to make it more appealing to people who find the current format unappealing. Not just changing the name, but actually changing what it is. Or just accept that TQ is what it is and that a lot of people don’t find it an attractive option.

    You won’t like this, but the impression I get from the people involved in TQs on this thread is that they’re unimaginative about what they could do as an alternative, or maybe, a less ‘narky’ way of looking at it, is that they like the events as they are. And that’s fair enough, but you can’t have your cake and eat it. If you genuinely want lots more partipants, and maybe it’s not possible, I’d change things.

    If I were Trailbreaks, I’d be on the phone to Garmin or Magellan right now with a brilliant concept for a GPS-based adventure event that they could splash their brand all over and that feels modern and original and exciting and nothing to do with Tracksters 😉

    andytherocketeer
    Full Member

    The only time (I think) that a GPS would give an advantage is when person setting the course has used one to put the course out! (which IMO shouldn’t be done)

    In the context of a classic TQ, Orienteering etc. maybe.
    In the modern day people expect to be able to download an app and grab the instructions/waypoints to their iPhone/android/garmin etc.

    I’ve had discussions with organisers before when I’ve not found a control where I was expecting to find it and they’ve said “but we used a GPS” (mainly in adventure races actually) – when the competitors themselves where not allowed to use a GPS. The reason that this is wrong is that actually maps do not always correspond exactly with GPS readings, because maps are an *interpretation* of what is on the ground.

    Classic mistake made with Geocaches from time to time. If everyone is set to WGS84 then it’s usually just 2x accuracy errors to care about (although I expect most geocachers forget about the setter’s accuracy). But if one is set to WGS84 and another to a different datum then there can be some crazy errors (100s of metres?). The guy setting the waypoint should realise that there’s a massive discrepancy, when trying to map that point!

    I did look in to TQ way back.. but then I moved to the mountain biking mecca called the Netherlands (and then later Germany – Actually TQ sounds like the kind of thing Germans would be into).

    You do have to ask… who’s going to do a TQ on a specific Sunday aftenoon, when there’s things like Geocaching and Waymarking out there that can be done by anyone at any time on foot, on bike, by car, at any time. The multi-caches have some kind of “puzzle” or challenge built in to them although like TQ I guess there are good ones that take you to “interesting” waypoints, and bad ones that take you to random waypoints. There are other GPS/Navigation games too, but they’re even more niche.

    And as for the map that was posted a few pages back… to me that’s not mountain biking at all. Looks like 90% road, 10% bridlepath. Maybe it was not a good example? 😕

    rightplacerighttime
    Free Member

    If I were Trailbreaks, I’d be on the phone to Garmin or Magellan right now with a brilliant concept for a GPS-based adventure event that they could splash their brand all over and that feels modern and original and exciting and nothing to do with Tracksters

    I’d love to hear what this is, as I can’t hink of one. The only thing that I find interesting about GPSs is as a recording device to show me where I went wrong when map reading after the event.

    Can’t say that I’m personally bowled over at the idea of geocaching.

    I suspect that some super new GPS based bike event would be, as you say, unappealing to the people who currently like TQs, so rather pointless in terms of the current discussion, but I’d be happy to be proved wrong if you can think of something.The fact that GPSs have been around for quite a few years now without anyone coming up with some brilliant new format suggests to me that there isn’t one to be had. TQ organisers aren’t stick in the muds and have tried all sorts of variations on the theme.

    richpips
    Free Member

    BWD don’t mention GPS in a discussion about TQ or orienteering.

    They think they’re the devils work.

    emac65
    Free Member

    #1 – Because they’re a bit like an easter egg hunt for adults,but without the chocolate
    #2 – They look dull…..
    #3 – Don’t think anything they could do to them would make me want to do one,the idea of looking for something on a map over & over again just isn’t my idea of fun

    amodicumofgnar
    Full Member

    So about ths size of it is there’s enough to sustain local leagues and possibly one or two bigger events but on the whole what people want to do has moved on. Being British we’ve replaced riding around with maps by a nice queue on trails you could ride for fee.

    amodicumofgnar
    Full Member

    I supose the other thing is larger events have now been replaced by adventure races like the open series.

    DFaffMaster
    Full Member

    I LOVE cycling and all the different challenges it presents and as National MTBO Score Champion my results highlights show that I am far from a bearded, sandaled Marin rider. Although I did ride a Marin but with Pikes and a Vanilla R rear shock!! Now ride a Giant Anthem, much quicker
    Can’t wait for the Polaris this year as they have promised predominantly Dark Peak riding. So the winner should hopefully be a fast technical rider with ninja map riding skills and a cunning route to back it up! Hopefully it will be me 😀

    Cycling Highlights
    Cycled from Lhasa to Kathmandu via Everest Base Camp
    Cycled 2750 miles off road from Canada to Mexico following the ‘Great Divide Mountain Bike Trail’
    British Mountain Bike Orienteering (BMBO) Overall Champion 2010
    BMBO Senior League Champion 2010
    5th TransWales 2009
    Singletrack Classic Weekender ‘Unofficial Best All Round Mountain Biker in the UK’ 2009 Overall Champion

    Wark Forest BMBO National League Overall Champion May 2009
    2nd Hit the North Winter Sprinter Feb 2009
    1st Tiviot Dale Summer Mountain Bike Race 2007
    13th TransScotland 2007
    2nd in first ever mountain bike race at Lee Quarry 2007
    7th Scottish Masters National XC Championships 2007
    3rd in Bickerstaffe 4th Cat Road Race!
    17th TransWales 2006
    DQ’d for lapping the Elite riders at Preston Crits after Stockport Clarion got a 1st,2nd,3rd May 2007. Still don’t know why?
    14th NPS Downhill Race at Bedgelert 1994. Unseeded smashed the course record even after two dog walkers stepped out in front of me and caused me to crash in sight of the finish. Lost loads of time but still beat Steve Peat and Rob Warner who had much worse crashes than mine (don’t know if dog walkers were involved).
    2nd 1989 In first ever National Mountain Bike Dual Slalom race at Bosley. Glad I came 2nd won a cool pair of fluro pink JT glasses rather than a roof rack for the winner.


    090825000855_H by Mountybiker, on Flickr


    Singletrack Classic Weekender 2009 by Mountybiker, on Flickr


    McMoab by Mountybiker, on Flickr

    pypdjl
    Free Member

    Being British we’ve replaced riding around with maps by a nice queue on trails you could ride for fee

    You can ride around with a map for free as well! And pick your own route, length of ride, pace, use of footpaths, etc…

    aracer
    Free Member

    I supose the other thing is larger events have now been replaced by adventure races like the open series

    Not exactly replaced. Adventure races like that were around in the heyday of Polaris – those of us doing AR also tended to do Polaris, TQs, MMs etc. rather than it being either/or. AR does still seem to have a better image than trailquest though.

    I reckon the answer is actually that mountain bikers are less adventurous nowadays – why navigate yourself around when you can follow a train of other bikers in a marathon, why carry overnight camping stuff for Polaris when you can stay in a nice B&B at a trail centre?

    sidhardy
    Free Member

    There seems to be a few viewpoints here – clearly some folks aren’t interested at all, there’s a few enthusiasts trying to drum up support and promote events and there’s a few in the middle ground who may be interested/lament a lack of events in their area/don’t get the time – I’m sure that last one is common across many other MTB niches too.

    Trailquesting, or whatever you want to call it, is never going to be a mass participation activity and maybe it does have an image problem. However if you are interested in giving these a try or lamenting the demise of the TrailBreak Navigators there’s a few events running that I’ve helped with or have ridden which are worth a look. They aren’t just attended by a bunch of biking druids etc – we get families along, a whole range of ages, there is generally food on offer at the event centre, some are run from or adjacent to pubs, and folks hang around afterwards for the social side. Some of the events listed below are growing so someone must enjoy them.

    Midland Trailquests – a couple of events per month throughout the greater Midlands – I’m running the most Southerly of these in October from Chieveley just North of the M4 – that’s South-ish.

    Gorrick Trailtrax – next event in July West of Reading, other events down the M3 in August and one near Guildford in September.

    Peaslake School, in the heart of the North Downs, run a couple of events a year as a fundraiser. The next one is in October (http://www.peaslakemtbo.com/)

    The concerns on the thread that these events involve significant amounts of road/fire road riding and miss out the “good bits” couldn’t be further from the truth. The event areas are chosen for the quality of riding and density of tracks to maximise the amount of time riding offroad – for the last few I have ridden it must have exceeded 85% off road for most riders. The reason we try to keep event entrants away from the roads is a simple one – safety is paramount, if you’re spending a minimal amount of time on the roads there’s little likelihood of any issues with other road users.

    The checkpoint locations are set so that riders are likely to select a route that uses the best trails on offer in the area. I’ve generally found these events to be a great introduction to many new areas that I have returned to ride subsequently.

    Well, I think I’ve taken up enough of your time… there’s plenty of other threads if this isn’t your thing, but if this sounds remotely tempting all you have to lose is one Sunday morning….

    Elfinsafety
    Free Member

    Jeeze, I think this thread must surely win the ‘longest posts per person’ award! 😯

    Blimey. That’ll keep me occupied for a while, reading all that…

    iDave
    Free Member

    14th NPS Downhill Race at Bedgelert 1994. Unseeded smashed the course record

    You were slower than 13 riders, whilst smashing the course record? How does that work? Did your big swinging dick finish 14 places ahead of you? Just wondering like….

    I wouldn’t ride a trailquest because I’d rather ride a bike than ponder a map.

    DFaffMaster
    Full Member

    iDave it’s a shame you were unable to make your point without playground insults or I might have explained how seeding works in terms of order of racing.

    Results list was to show that peoples stereotyping of riders who participate in Mountain Bike Orienteering is incorrect

    Polaris this weekend in the Peak District. 12 hours of top mountain biking over 2 days. Just need to link those trails into a good high scoring route. If that does not appeal move on…………and find your manners

    Elfinsafety
    Free Member

    I wouldn’t ride a trailquest because I’d rather ride a bike than ponder a map.

    Ooh I dunno; I like riding bikes but I like maps too. And I like a puzzle.

    Maybe I should organise a London Pootlequest….

    DFaffMaster
    Full Member

    Elfinsafety. Thats how I started!!

    simon1975
    Full Member

    Having seen TQ riders in action on Sunday mornings so many times over the last few years, I rode my first Trailquest yesterday from Grindleford and really enjoyed it. It’s an area I know really well but the locations of the checkpoints led me down two bits of trail that I’ve not ridden before. Not exactly “hardcore” riding as I ended up doing a lot of road miles to link up the CPs, but it was a great morning out in the autumn sunshine. Good to be doing something with a “goal” that isn’t just a flat-out race.

    Really pleased to get back on time (slightly early) but will definitely spend a little longer planning which CPs to collect next time. Didn’t twig straight away that some were of higher value than others…

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