Some people just prefer doing other things. Get over it. The whole idea sounds to me to be utterly tedious and a great way to spoil a good ride, but I’m sure that won’t stop you from enjoying it. Why do you feel the need to validate and justify your own activities by getting more people to take part?

As a TQ organiser and competitor, this is a really interesting thread. A lot of posters have done TQs, and it seems most have enjoyed them, but have stopped for whatever reason. Most posters don’t do TQs, and want to “just ride their bikes”. Trailquests for me get you to ride in an area you would normally drive past – sometimes you wouldn’t normally ride there as the riding is poor, sometimes the riding is great. It’s rarely a technical gnarrfest, but there are often those little snippets of woodland singletrack or fast descent that make your local trails fun.

Riding for me is about enjoying being outside and getting some blood pumping – the social side is secondary, but still important. The “stop/start” nature is mentioned above, but how many trail centre riders stop at the end of every section or the top of every molehill? That is real stop/ start.

The image problem is a difficult one to fix – maybe we need to have more images of glamourous girls (or blokes) on the adverts etc?

Hey MTQG, just chipping in as this is actually a parallel to a long-running discussion in orienteering circles – namely that you see lots of cross-country runners, fell runners and even roadrunners in the South East, but put a map into the equation and suddenly it seems wrong…

After much discussion with some friends who are orienteers, we figured that it’s never going to be cool – there’s no two ways about it, really. It’s always going to be a relatively niche sport, and that’s the unfortunate fact.
BUT at the same time, they could do a lot more to increase trial rates. Because out of the hundreds of thousands of casual on- and off-road runners out there, even if only 5% are interested after trying it, that’s still several thousand new fans.

So, to that end, there’s a marketing angle (where are events held? do people ever come across anything that reminds them that such a sport exists? and so on), and also a ‘make it easy to try’ angle – there’s a view of it being quite cliquey, competed by weirdos, and while that may not be possible to shift, if you can at least get people in the door, they could see for themselves that it’s fun and not full of weirdos. And perhaps most importantly, we probably have an idea of the barriers to entry (perceived distance to get to events, perception of difficulty/ weirdo level), but less of an idea of why we’d want to overcome those barriers.

I could go on, but I’m not being very coherent, I think…

I registered with MTQ last year and fully intended (along with a few other MB Swindon members)to do a couple. Usual story, club rides and events took over and left us not a lot of time for anything else. I promise we’ll get around to doing it one day.

Its quite hard finding events on the internet. Never sure what to look under. I’ve missed some local ones because they have not come up on any websites I’ve looked on. Is there a website that covers all mtb events? Have seen trailquests and may be interested.
❓

trail quest is very popular on the isle of man – most local faces turn up – Graham Hughes organises good runs which are well supported by a wide age range from generations/families to the more mature. good fun and enough of a challenge for all abilities – even the best riders can make a bum choice depending on the weather. biggest surprise was when some “random” Kiwis slaughtered a 5hr course in 3 hours, went to get the Ferry & turned out to be World adventure race champs who happened to turn up on the spur of the moment when visiting mates…

i can’t do the next 5hr one as i’m doing the 10@KT again . Bit disappointed but there you go. Maybe its just a collective mindset? Far prefer them to racing (as do most vie spoken to @ events)

The publicity issue is again most likely a result of it being organised at a grass roots level. Most websites are shonky to say the least doesnt help the image. 5hrs on the isle of man has an ‘event’ feel to it but in reality its just small scale from a village hall – I am making assumptions here. The only attempt I know of to get something a bit larger than one of the local leagues was Dark and White’s Grizedale Giant. It was pulled for lack of entries. Not sure who you could blame price – less than half polaris or the area. Grizedale area isnt short of good riding.

One great aspect of trailquests is that they cover a lot of area. My friend’s dad is heavily involved with the local Polaris scene which means we can just point a a bit of map and he can tell us from experience that there are no interesting trails there.

Reaching out to the grass roots is maybe a way for TQ to get the numbers back up. Something along the lines of “Fun” club events of a shorter duration

Here you go:
http://www.walton-chasers.co.uk/?p=559
Well not you personally, as it’s in the wrong part of the country, but for those in the right area not a bad way to have a go.

For those after info, here’s a national calendar:
http://www.bmbo.org.uk/calendar/

…and for midlands based riders, one for MTQ, which doesn’t talk to BMBO so don’t get on their calendar (don’t you just love splits in a small niche sport 🙄 )
http://www.midlandtrailquests.co.uk/events-and-results/events.php

However, the thing that puts me off the events is that when I’ve seen riders out doing this sort of event, a noticable number of them seem really miserable and think all other riders should give them right of way simply because they’re taking part in an event (even when the other riders are faster).

They just don’t make it look like fun.
Please don’t let that put you off. Most of us try to have fun, not look grumpy and not shove other people out of the way. Of course at times I might be in deep concentration whilst trying to plan my route ahead, or be in a bit of a hurry, so ask politely to come past if you’re riding slower. The irony is that knowing most of the really good riders (I’ve been half decent myself in the past with TQ wins, Polaris top 5) I can’t believe any of them would conform to that stereotype – it seems to be the mid-packers trying to come 10th instead of 11th who have a bad attitude.

The SE have gone there own way – a varriation on the same theme as all the BMBO affiliated events, checkpoint value seems to be the main difference.

http://www.gorrick.com/trailtrax/index.php

I always perceived that the way to do well was to cover as much as you could on the flat, the road and the firetrails. We used to plot a route that looked interesting but that meant we did badly – to improve your score you were looking for the more boring trails

That is to some extent true, though good course planning (and good areas) should always force you to spend lots of time riding proper off-road stuff. As I mentioned before, linear style MTBO rather than score events also results in a far higher proportion of interesting riding.

The thing is, if you’re not going to threaten the pointy end, why not just do it the way you want to and not worry too much about having been beaten by a few people who had less fun than you did. Just treat the event as a structure to your route plan which takes you places you might not have gone otherwise.

The Scottish series is very inclusive for the grassroots – really good vibe tbh. Generational entrants (Dads and /or Mams and children), juniors etc – been impressed with the overall friendliness and structure. Not massive fields, but certainly enough to feel like an event.
Obviously family-orientated MTB event is quite polarising if that’s not you, but it’s definitely a strand of identity to exploit in the context of increasing MBO’s popularity.

It’s not worth over-thinking, either. As has been mentioned, our recreational lives are far more fragmented these days. Everything is under more pressure for our attention and choice is massive. XC racing has been decimated from the glory days of the 90s for example. We want TQs / MBO to be viable events, numbers greater than 2 men and a dog, but beyond that it’s probably not realistic to grow the sport beyond a basic sustainability.

Hi
apologies I havnt had time to read the whole thread as I am flying to Sweden today to compete in a Mountain Bike Orienteering World Cup race and spent last night packing.

In fact there are also 15 UK riders competing in the World Masters Champs held concurrently, where we expect to bring home some Gongs like last year.

Walton Chasers are putting on 4 low key TQ style events coming up in the next few weeks (similar to Dark and White) http://www.walton-chasers.co.uk/?p=559 if you want to give it a go, but these will be mainly lane based.

Please do not confuse Mountain Bike Orienteering (MTBO, MBO) in its International form, ie shorter formats on specialist large scale orienteering maps with MBO Score or Trailquest on 1:50,000 maps.
Yes they are both navigation on bikes but there the similarities end.

Mountain Bike Orienteering hits Stafford

Anyone wanting a flavour of MTBO races as apposed to TQs see

http://www.mbosouth.co.uk

also check out this Headcam footage from last years world champs sprint ( 25min) race in a town in portugal

There are a series of good vids from the World Champs in Israel in 2009 too

The Scottish series is very inclusive for the grassroots – really good vibe tbh. Generational entrants (Dads and /or Mams and children), juniors etc – been impressed with the overall friendliness and structure. Not massive fields, but certainly enough to feel like an event.
Obviously family-orientated MTB event is quite polarising if that’s not you, but it’s definitely a strand of identity to exploit in the context of increasing MBO’s popularity.

It’s not worth over-thinking, either. As has been mentioned, our recreational lives are far more fragmented these days. Everything is under more pressure for our attention and choice is massive. XC racing has been decimated from the glory days of the 90s for example. We want TQs / MBO to be viable events, numbers greater than 2 men and a dog,

+1

if an organiser can get in contact with “how to do it” details we’ll have a look at it for 2012 (we have restarted XC racing in the NW so why not MBO). The kit is obviously a big issue but we operate in an area where one should be viable if some thought is put in and a “family event” would be good. We already have a dodgy website and good sponsor contacts 😉 .

personally its not the image that puts me off… after all, as mountainbikers we’re not exactly the most fashionable beasts in the woods!

i’d say its the fact that riding for me is about messing around in the woods with my friends… no structure, no route plans… just ‘ohhh lets see where that goes!, ‘that was fun, lets do it again’ and ‘i’m so freaking happy to be sharing this experience with my friends who, when able to breath again, are all grinning from ear to ear’

beardy-sockswithsandles-mapboard-cardigan image aside…. it just doesnt come across (to me personally) as a fun activity for someone who doesnt like racing or structured playtime.

Never organised one but BMBO running events guide for budding organisers. I’d thought about sticking my neck out and doing a Teesdale one, fortunately NEMBOs turned up instead. I’d be up for some West Pennines / South Pennines riding although last time I spoke to one of the local authority rights of way people up there they took the view trailquests are races and they dont do races on bridleways.

I haven’t read the thread but I’ll chip in with why I wouldn’t do one –

– It all sounds a bit lame. Like World Of Warcraft for bikers.

– Why spoil a ride with a treasure hunt? Navigate if you need to, otherwise just ride.

– Seems like inventing a new sport for the sake of inventing it.

I’ve nothing against anyone who takes part, I just think you’d all have more fun if you just went out riding.

I’ve done a few years ago. The last one was in the Forest of Dean. About half way through we rode to the top of a hill for a high score checkpoint but along with about 8 other people at the chechpoint at that time we were unable to find it. We then went for a cheese toastie at pedalabikeaway and then a play on the DH tracks. I think we were only 4th from last.

It turned out some over-competitive cheat had removed the checkpoint stamp.

That’s an interesting point about racing on bridleways.
Perhaps I should mention that, despite my name on STW, I am just an ordinary member of MTQ. I have organised one event and helped at a couple of others, but I am not a club organiser and my views are my own, not official club policy.

As I understand it, MTQ broke away from BMBO because some people weren’t happy about “racing” on bridleways because it’s illegal.
All MTQ events are what BMBO would call “Score Events”, which makes them a “Navigation” event, not a “Speed” event, so they can legally take place on public RoWs.
It all seems a bit trivial when you look at all the various “Enduros”, “Marathons” and “Challenges” taking place on public RoWs.

I’ve heard of Walton Chasers and the Gorrick series. Stidge’s link is the first I’ve heard of MBOSouth.
Personally, I’d rather see one club covering the whole country. But then, I’d like to see the various 12 & 24 hour races around the country combined in to a national series as well.

To respond to a couple more points raised;

Why the criticism of meeting in village halls ?
What are the alternatives ? A pub car park or a tent in a field ? It’s somewhere warm and dry with a car park.

Several people mention the map reading and score card punching as interrupting the flow of a ride.
As large418 says, most forum rides have far less flow than a trailquest, it’s the main thing that puts me off group rides. In a 3 hour trailquest, I probably spend less than 15 minutes stationary. In a 3 hour BikeRadar Wyre Forest ride it would be over an hour.

Haven’t done a trailquest since I rode a Mount Vision (circa 1998).
Really enjoyed them, and the Mount vision, in their day.
Sadly the frameset has been languishing in the roof for many years – might build it into a ski-bike one day soon!

It all sounds a bit lame.

Another recurring theme.
It’s as lame as you want it to be.
To go back to my original post, HONC sounds a bit lame. 50 or 100km of lanes and tame bridleways on the Cotswolds, with several locals posting on STW about how it missed out a lot of the good trails in the area.
It still sold out within 2 hours of going live on line though.

Having had a go at trying to portray why I wouldn’t do a TQ, which did come across as more critical than I was aiming for, I feel I should really try to be more helpful.

It seems to me that the concept, as with orienteering, is a niche within a niche within a… essentially to get round a TQ you need to be a reasonably competent rider, with the ability to navigate, and the desire to do both at once. All together a bit intimidating; hence, I suppose the lack of new (to mountain biking and events in general) faces.

The navigation is obviously an integral part of TQ, but that’s the bit that most people would see as the difficult part, so, in my opinion, the best way forward would be to minimise that for new riders.

You could run a beginners TQ, with groups or individuals or pairs getting navigational advice from crusty old feckers more experienced TQers at the start.

Or, as noted above, run some, not all, but some TQs as a ‘visit all the points’ circuit, with different lengths of circuit and times to finish in.

My experience with orienteering was through my fell running club; they put on an event and I entered, seeing it as a one-off ‘practice’ for fell racing. It was different to fell racing because of the route choice, but I chose to run it to win, or try to, and, as above I cut out the good stuff in favour of the fast stuff. Maybe there is the option of combining a TQ with a different event like Mayhem; feeding off the popularity.

In general terms, I think fewer check points would help reduce the perception of navigating on a bike; pick an area with optional routes, choose 5 checkpoints and let people really go to town on the route choice.

The other thing that occurs to me with the rise in popularity of rigid bikes and cyclocrossers is to aim for those people; the 3 peaks used to spawn a number of reliability rides in the North West; there is a market for organised not-races, with limited navigation aimed at a particular type of cyclist.

Another possible option is to release the details of the checkpoints before the event; get them out on the web, let the poring over maps and choosing the right route be done at home or in the pub, then turn up and get going on the day. Or even the night before to encourage folk to travel and camp or B&B; local economy booster…

Can’t think of any more things at the mo, but it’s a viable event, let down a lot by a poor image and a certain level of required skill that puts people off at the start. More checkpoint choices that force people to ride the best bits of an area would help too, and some kind of link to trail centres, to get the people riding in a controlled environment, then expand to outside…

Image is no concern because everyone looks a dick on a bike, spd sandals or five tens no one cool’s going to be very impressed. It’s just the thought of turning something I do to unwind into a little mirror of the work environment – targets, competition, routine, strategies etc – that puts me off. It sounds **** mental to me (and that goes for any kind of leisure time sport). Mind you, racing seems popular with plenty of folk so my thoughts are just a drop in the ocean here.

Why the criticism of meeting in village halls ?

I think that was me. It wasn’t a criticism of meeting in village halls as such, but the point being, it’s just another part of the image ie cream teas at the end and shake hands with the vicar along with the other geography teachers in their socks and sandals. I’m sure it’s not like that really (or maybe it is?).
Is it something that might appeal to outdoorsmagic rather than bikemagic? orienteering, but covering more ground, I dunno. It doesn’t appeal to me tho and I’m a keen map reader and navigator, but I’d rather spend the afternoon on bikes with philconsequence ^^ in that his idea of a great time on a bike is the same as mine.

I think they do one in the Wyre Forest, MidlandTrailquestsGraham I guess you would know 😉

Sounds like it could be fun.

A couple of good points there, Crikey.

I’ve thought that combining a trailquest with another event might be a good way to get new entrants.
Wiggle 6 had the night time trial the night before. One of the Merida Marathions had a night ride on the Saturday before the main event on Sunday. Even MM has got a road sportive.
Would people want to ride two hard event in one weekend, or even one day though ?

If people think they are going to turn up and be told “Here’s your map, see you in three hours” and be left to it, that would be a bit daunting.
There will always be someone at a trailquest to help beginners with route planning and so on.
I think some sort of beginners event would be a good idea though, maybe with an experienced rider leading a small group of first timers.

last time I spoke to one of the local authority rights of way people up there they took the view trailquests are races and they dont do races on bridleways

They are wrong. TQs are specifically NOT races, never advertised as races and are a test of navigation, not of speed. Some organisers go a bit wrong by making the course clearable and then awarding the win to the person who does it in the fastest time. In the original rules the win should be awarded to the person who has the most high value checkpoints, then if still a tie (if I remember right) to the person who started first – so never any question of racing.

CRC Marathons are also not races for the same reason as TQs – which is that races are illegal on bridleways – it’s a crap law though, so whether anyone ever would put it to the test in court is a moot point.

I just think you’d all have more fun if you just went out riding.

I invariably have more fun when doing a TQ than when just out riding – but then I’m afflicted by a swollen overcompetitive gland

I have been following this with interest as I know that organisers are currently looking at ways to encourage more to try these events.
Some good points have been raised and personally I think it is this image problem that seems to put most new people off plus the map bit which seems to scare people but really isn’t that bad. In reality though you can’t beat these events for value for money and as many have said you can take the competitive element as casually or seriously as you want.

If you struggle with the image of these events try picturing them more like rallying on mountain bikes because its about as close as you can get without an engine. (I used to rally and find it ticks most of the same boxes even down to scaring yourself —tless now and then!)

I have done Polaris and trailquest events for years but I have no beard and am hopefully far from fuddy duddiness! I do plenty of ‘normal’ riding and trail centre stuff too but can honestly say that much of the best riding I have done has been during these events in places I would probably never have gone otherwise.

Crikey – you made a lot of good points and suggestions, I think the idea of a set route or similar for first timers would be good. Incidently, and its not a dig but I cannot agree with the ‘class/income moving on from this level’ thing you mentioned earlier, I ride an Anthem X and many have more exotic bikes, plenty don’t of course and still beat plenty of those that do. As with all events you see a varied spread of people at trailquests too all of whom seem very friendly and sociable.

I mainly now compete in NYMBO (North Yorkshire series, Nymbo.org.uk)
which are very well organised with good maps, no marking up, electronic scoring and above all very good value!
The September round at Dalby usually involves sections of the RED route and is followed the next day by an Enduro event round the local North York Moors.

GO ON give one a go and then decide.

sorry for the longer than intended post. Cheers

To go back to my original post, HONC sounds a bit lame. 50 or 100km of lanes and tame bridleways on the Cotswolds, with several locals posting on STW about how it missed out a lot of the good trails in the area.

Seem to recall the same complaints being levelled at each of the English CRC marathons and their earlier incarnations.

Problem with trailquests is as soon as you start describing them they do come over a bit lashings of ginger beer.

Like most competative events is broadly
Turn up to start, put bike together faff and talk to people, register, collect timing chip and get more info on the event / course, start, compete for 2, 3, 4 5 or more hours, finish, drink tea, eat biscuits, talk to people, go to cafe / pub or home. Because its about navigation you can be a map nerd as much or as little as you want. Ask questions if you want. Sometimes there are prizes sometime not – Blanchland NEMBOs it was wine, sometimes their are freebies sometime there are not – Dark and White give you a cliffe bar. Come on what do you want for an event that costs a tenner. Sunshine will make things seem better showers will make them seem worse. Storms make for adventures. If you can do 40 – 50km in three hours you’d probably finish in the top half of the table. Unlike a lot of cross country races first is first there’s no elite, sports, pros etc everyone is fun class.

On the compete bit – if you’ve got two hours your not going to be sitting around planning its really just look and go. Longer evenets give you more time. Shorten things to an hours an it’ll be sprint lunacy – probably more niche rather than less. There’s a few copies of the map round the start / finish so you can get some feel for the area. If you want a nerd tip – the locations of the start are usually given a couple of weeks before hand. An A4 map @ 50thou covers around 14km by 10km so you look at the riding within a 14km radius of the start you get and idea of whats there. Start is by punching an electronic chip – a variation on the timing chips used in running and biking events all over the UK. Punch in and the clock is running. You get given a map with the checkpoints marked on and a sheet giving a better desription of where it is – something simple like North side of track, telegraph pole. I dont usually bother with them as checkpoints in the events I do are marked with a bit of barrier tape and below it is a little beeping box. Punch in with the timing chip. Head off to next.

Trailquests dont make boring riding but bad course designers do.

I’d be up for some West Pennines / South Pennines riding although last time I spoke to one of the local authority rights of way people up there they took the view trailquests are races and they dont do races on bridleways.

views may differ seeing as a Lancs CC RoW officer is running a “mini” one on the weekender which will have riders on a Bridleway.

My view is that it’s an ideal way of an area promoting itself and should be targetting families, it’s about getting people to explore an area and enjoy themselves etc. Good sponsorship and promotion is the way forward to bring new people into riding real trails rather than focusing on whether its all about beards, sandals and marins and sneering by people who would never organise anything that didn’t fill their own pocket.

If someone knows their way around these things and the organisation required we want to hear about it info@brownbacksracing.co.uk

Its definately a point of view thing as a few marathon type events seem to run through the same patch and yet they arent viewed as races. It was in the context of this would be a great area for a… Local for locals might get a different response. BTW wasnt Lancs.

Use of the word “quest”. Fix that and you will be fine

Interesting the Atitude of some TQ riders that has been mentioned by other posters.

Go look at this thread via Graham’s id website, and feel the love

http://www.midlandtrailquests.co.uk/forum/forum-view-thread.php?topic=4&thread=12

Oh, and yesterday my mate going uphill at a TQ was taken out by some knob bowling down hill far faster than he was able to stop. She was going ~3 miles an hour and her bike landed over a hedge a way behind her.

He and the rider who followed closely after apparently seemed more interested in “getting on” rather than checking my mate was OK.

Nice.

PS. She still won though.

cream teas at the end

i’m suddenly interested

Use of the word “quest”. Fix that and you will be fine

They’ve already done that. Officially they are now called MBO Score events (mountain bike orienteering) – it’s just that lots of people still call them Trailquests.

Have a look at the BMBO website for more info on this whole thing.

Blimey, still going? It’s simple really, isn’t it.

1. People doing the snappily renamed MBO score events are happy with them as is and don’t see any real need to change them.

2. People who don’t do them, the ones who maybe would be potential participants, see them as archaic, fuddy duddy, weird things.

The reality, squirming TQers, is that they do seem a bit old fashioned, so you either live with that and get on with having a charmingly Victorian niche event or you consider dragging the format kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.

How? Talk to the likes of Garmin. Embrace and incorporate GPS technology. Learn from stuff like geo-caching, which is accessible and popular with families. Ban Tracksters… Tech it up a bit, incorporate short trials sections with bonus points. Or special stages. Run an urban event on a quiet Sunday afternoon etc.

But see ‘1’, if the people running the sport are happy with it as is, then they won’t be fundamentally changing it any time soon. Will they?

Personally it doesn’t bother me at all that I am in a niche when I’m doing a TQ/MBO and the ONLY reason that I would like to see more people in the sport is because having a bigger pool of competitors leads through into having more organisers of events – so more events on offer to take part in.

TQ has always been a bit different to many other niches within mountainbiking in that many of the organisers only put on one event a year, for no (or very little) financial gain, but just because they are part of the “club” -so the more people in the club, the more events we get.

I’ve planned 2 MTBO events in the last 3 years, for which I got no payment whatsoever as I did it under the auspices of my orienteering club and they got the profits we made – but I don’t mind as I know there are other enthusiasts out there doing the same for me (and in fact the process is quite fun anyway).

The idea of bringing the sport into the 21st century with the use of GPS is a bit curious. I just don’t see how that would work, or what the point would be – why not bring mountainbiking into the 21st century by using motorbikes?

Seriously though, I don’t see how a GPS would add to the experience, or even be helpful. It’s a bit like those guys in Arab souks using abacuses to do their sums – if you know what you’re doing then they are quicker than calculators. If you can read a map then a GPS is redundant.

Mmm, interesting. I have only ever done one – a White and Dark event from Monsal Dale – and I loved it. Why have I not done another? No idea. I’m not riding much at the mo’ anyway so that’s the first problem. What did strike me about the Monsal Dale one was that I got a reasonably good quality ride – and respectable position – because I knew the area fairly well. I didn’t therefore spend a lot of time checking the map. I imagine if I was in an unfamiliar area I’d get a bit irritated with the map reading. I simply cannot ride fast whilst checking a map.

The one thing that my competitive streak was not so keen on is the massive variety in abilities. This was my first trailquest and I was up against people wearing UK Mountain Bike Orienteering shirts. I assume they earned them. If I’m going to race I want to be up against similar abilities so I have a fighting chance of being competitive.

I think the other factor is cost. I so rarely get to ride these days that I’m a bit reluctant to pay for the privilege.

Overall though, I loved it and have never done it since. Go figure 😯