People seem to want to put less in for more return. Working at your fun is seemed not to be fun.

If that were true no-one would do MTB marathons or 24 hour races – those are most definitely hard work.

It seems a lot of riders only go riding if:

– They are following a trail center route.
– They are following a waymarked trail / mag route.
– They are being led round.
– They dont have to plan anything

The people who use to ride with maps in the rosy good old days still do. The people riding trail centres are IN ADDITION to those out on the hills I reckon. And more riders = good.

Both cp and Trimix missing the point by a country mile…

The OP asked why people don’t do them, and you’ve both taken an arrogant, superior approach to explain that we are the ones at fault, that we’re the crap ones who cant take responsibility or even read a map.

Yes, actually I can read a map, Yes actually, I’ve done orienteering events and done well in them in far more self reliant conditions than on a bike.

It’s exciting & fast – you don’t know how many points someone else might accumulate Ooh, how exciting..

Sorry, it’s dull and it’s not racing as I would like to race.

It is a niche and I think you have to accept that. One of the largest niches in mtb riding is the ‘sneer at other peoples’ niches’ so you are not going to convert the half inch between socks and shorts brigade.[ see what I did there eh?]
I enjoy them because I am a map anorak and frankly am a crap rider so doing any kind of straight race is very discouraging. Obviously I still am at the back in TQs but you don’t get your nose rubbed in it quite as badly as you do ride round on your own a lot or with a team member. Yes more publicity would draw more like minded riders but you are never going to make it a mass MTB sport [if that isn’t a contradiction in terms].

I see there’s an event near me soon, may give it a crack.

Yeah, there are a lot of old fogeys there. Also a lot of people who are only out for a laugh. Which is fine, but it’s hardly a race then is it?

Actually the best guys have always been pretty fast, and in fact on the odd occasions where top XC racers have had a go at these sorts of events they have generally been beaten – so although it isn’t just about pure bike speed, winning does require a pretty well honed set of skills.

Also, the thing about TQ is that the top guys are competing in the same event as the have a go crowd. The criticism of it not being much of a competition would be akin to an XC race having everyone from the fun to the elite mixed up together and coming to the conclusion that most of the riders weren’t much good. True enough, but the best TQ/Polaris riders have always been pretty fit and skilled.

BTW, better riders don’t stop to look at the map.

Incidentally, there’s a really good article about Polaris in the current issue of Privateer.

True, the fast guys are fast, but there’s only a few of them 🙂 Not denying it’s a special set of skills (see my post) but it’s something that I find stress-inducing, not stress relieving like flat out racing.

BTW, better riders don’t stop to look at the map as often

You can’t always read a map from a map-board ime.

I would really like to do one. But having to make (or buy) a map board does put me off a bit.

Map board is a bit of ply, 6 holes and 3 zip ties. At least to start you off – works fine.

But having to make (or buy) a map board does put me off a bit.

Doesn’t take long or cost much.

50p for a cheapo plastic chopping board. A couple of quid for some bulldog clips. Punch a few holes through the board so you can zip tie it to the bars. Attach the map using the bulldog clips. Job done. Looks crap, but who cares?

Rightplacerighttime – I did the recent Trailtrax too – glad you enjoyed it! A well thought-out set of checkpoints that rewarded good planning.

I enjoy them because its not just one set of skills needed, its three – route planning, navigation on the fly, riding fast. Not everyone’s cup of tea but then what event is?

Do you know what?….. the more I’ve read on here, the more tempted I am to give it a go.

I did some (running) orienteering events a long while ago and enjoyed them. I see the navigation bit as a strength, something that I’m quite good at and therefore a potential competitive advantage to make up for lack of absolute speed.
Whilst I like the idea of a bit of competition, the idea of racing laps around a boggy field does not tickle-my-fancy at all, so the TQ might be worth a shot instead.

BUT… I have a one fundamental issue still to overcome in that I like to optimise the limited time available on a bike each weekend, so I want to fit as much fast rocky downhill/technical fun into every ride as possible and I can’t see TQ satisfying this need. Correct me if you think I’ve underestimated the terrain but I’m expecting predominantly open moorland type stuff on TQs.

I’m waivering… convince me. 🙂

Whilst I like the idea of a bit of competition, the idea of racing laps around a boggy field does not tickle-my-fancy at all

FFS XC RACING IS NOT LIKE THAT! AARGH! Why the flying F do people keep saying that?!?!!!

Who cares?

Hmmm, maybe the people spending £500 to £2000 on new mountain bikes aren’t all that keen on ziptying a chopping board to their bars…
Cycling as a whole and mountain biking in particular has moved up in terms of class/income and popularity, trailquesting would seem not to have noticed.

i dont ride them because they are all too far from me to make the journey worthwhile, and the one that is close (Southwell in September) is on the weekend of my brothers wedding!

I have had a go at a couple and quite enjoyed them – its a different challenge to normal riding. I was quite surprised at the D&W one i did in December though. Thought we had done ok as a pair, but then realised that others had got ALL of the checkpoints. Also, there doesnt seem to be any advantage or reason for competing as a pair rather than solo, other than it is more sociable.

I will admit though that i am now at the point where XC racing holds little interest (as I have got older the categories have got even faster – Masters XC is mental fast), i am fed up of the expense and bike destroying mud of 24hr races and am keen to try different types of cycle sport.

Molgrips- it’s a well known fact, just like the one about xc racers having no bike handling skills and the fact that they are basically too rubbish to be roadie so they ride around a field in garish lycra*

*baased on what some bloke said down the pub and what folks read in MBR etc..

I will admit though that i am now at the point where XC racing holds little interest (as I have got older the categories have got even faster – Masters XC is mental fast), i am fed up of the expense and bike destroying mud of 24hr races and am keen to try different types of cycle sport.

My thoughts too.

Cycling as a whole and mountain biking in particular has moved up in terms of class/income and popularity, trailquesting would seem not to have noticed.

You’re making the mistake of lumping all of the competitors together again. TQ/Polaris has had sponsored riders on brand new top of the range XC bikes for 15 years. Not loads, but some.

I ride a full carbon hardtail and my mapboard cost more than a cheap bike from Halfords. I think you’re the one who hasn’t been noticing things. Where did you develop these prejudices?

oh, and to make a map board i stuck 2 bits of cardboard box together and zip tied it to my bars. Did the trick but was a bit odd to begin with not being able to see my front wheel.

As a misunderstood and callow youth I was never in the scouts.. I thought the orienteering types at school probably had inverted penises.. and I always considered ramblers, soldiers etc to be hiding a shameful secret that they think their family might disown them for..

all that aside I need a good selection of maps and a compass to use a MTB around the area I live.. and If my riding buddy hadn’t had to cut back his riding hours by 90% due to work commitments we’d probably be doing the local Trailquests..

I couldn’t imagine entering a trailquest on my own though.. or with people that I wasn’t certain of having a really good laugh with.. otherwise it might seem a bit too much like some sort of trial by flapping maps and geekery..

I imagine a lot of the real map worshippers to be too busy playing dungeons and dragons.. or writing complaining letters to their local MPs or whingeing on internet forums ( 😯 ) to have discovered mountain biking.. but that’s due to my teen prejudices lingering..

I hope that helps..

And more riders = good

Just out of curiosity what your reasoning behind this?

More people on bike on general is good for increasing people awareness of bikes on the road e.t.c but specificity more people mtbing? I’m not saying “the club is closed we’re full” and personally nor would I want to stop or put someone off mtbing but I can’t see many benefits to more MTBers. Possibly more technology and the odd trail centre but that’s it.

Whilst I like the idea of a bit of competition, the idea of racing laps around a boggy field does not tickle-my-fancy at all

FFS XC RACING IS NOT LIKE THAT! AARGH! Why the flying F do people keep saying that?!?!!!

Ignorance in my case… just ‘cos that’s the impression I’m getting from MM & HtN threads etc. (i.e. not from any personal experience)

<edit> maybe I should have said, the idea of racing laps of a set course (often muddy)</edit>

We did a few way back – various Trailbreak events and their Isle of Wight weekend .

I always perceived that the way to do well was to cover as much as you could on the flat, the road and the firetrails. We used to plot a route that looked interesting but that meant we did badly – to improve your score you were looking for the more boring trails.

That contrasts with Enduro riding where you’re going to a new area and someone has (hopefully) identified the best trails for you and stitched them together. I think that’s the main reason Trailbreak saw a move from the trailquest to the enduro at the WightDiamond – you’d get more good riding in over the weekend. Enduro’s are also more sociable while you’re riding – you’d meet people going in the same direction rather than racing past them heading the other way.

Also, the bikes (most) people are riding now are further from XC race bikes than they used to be so less suitable for Trailquest riding. 140-160mm bikes are not the right machines for making time on road. A few years back ‘trail’ travel was closer to 100mm, light weight was a big focus, and tyres were generally narrower.

I think thoose who mention “flow” are making an important point.

I love maps and reading them but reading a map on a bike is much more difficult than reading a map on foot. (ie you have to stop)

If I do want to go exploring an area then I have a map and a bike I can just head off why would I pay for an event ?

I pay for events because
1 like to compete against other people directly (ie I need to see them)
2 So I can be directed to some good trails , because no matter how good you are at reading a map you cant beat local knowledge.

MidlandTrailquestsGraham – Member
There’s a bit of a discussion going on in MTQ at the moment about attracting new members and increasing entries at events.

Have done a few in the past and mate and I actually won one which was sponsored by Go-Far enterprises!!! Mark & Dave were scooting about on a silly scooter thing!! We did get the impression that we were outsiders picking up a “locals” prize when our names were called, the room went into a hush, similar to walking into a small country pub….

Anyway that was then. Nowadays it is all about time & money and priorities. I would love to do some more and would have done some of the Bordersmtb and XCC ones if it was not for the fact I work shifts and most of the events fell on working days.
As for how to get more people into TQing?
If I use my riding buddies as an example most do not know about TQ, most would struggle to read a map, quite a few would struggle to ride continuously for 3hrs, most(all)do not enter events of any kind,most do not use internet forums or buy magazines therefore would not be aware of TQ events or what they are.
For those of us who do use the net, buy magazines etc there is little or no info.
Locally we have the DH at Ae and other cycling events going on and unless you are in the “know” or are interested in these events then the advertising info is very poor to non existent.
Reaching out to the grass roots is maybe a way for TQ to get the numbers back up. Something along the lines of “Fun” club events of a shorter duration
Mate and I had always used maps before we started cycling so for us it was just a means of going to another area where we would or may not have gone riding
Ageing and failing eyesight just adds to the list of reasons atm 🙄

TheBrick – Member

“And more riders = good”

Just out of curiosity what your reasoning behind this?

lots of reasons:

more riders = more trails built for the purpose = more ‘normal’ people riding bikes (wives, girlfriends, boyfriends, kids, the family that plays together stays together etc.)

scale of manufacture should bring prices down – i think we’re seeing evidence of this already.

(rockshox recons for £120)

with more bikes around, and lower prices, there should be less bike-theft.

(in much the same way that there’s little point stealing DVD players anymore; everyone’s got a couple, and you can buy a new one for £20)

if more people ride, there’ll be less ignorance / more tolerance.

if more people ride at the weekend, maybe they’ll think about riding to work/ the shops.

etc.

etc.

bikes are ace.

I ride a lot around the Peak district and I know it well. The idea of mixing the skills involved appeals. However, the thing that puts me off the events is that when I’ve seen riders out doing this sort of event, a noticable number of them seem really miserable and think all other riders should give them right of way simply because they’re taking part in an event (even when the other riders are faster).

They just don’t make it look like fun.

crikey – Member
Cycling as a whole and mountain biking in particular has moved up in terms of class/income and popularity, trailquesting would seem not to have noticed.

Cycling moving up in class, and that’s a good thing yeah ?? 😆

Well why not let these new ‘upper class’ bikers polish their niches and stroke their beards while the proper bikers carry on enjoying whatever sort of riding they enjoy.

You dont need to make a map holder, just put the map in your pocket. Thats what I used to do.

I never won, or came close, I just enjoyed riding with added elements like timing, route planning, map and terrain reading etc.

Those are the bits I enjoyed most.

For me as a veteran of several Polaris in the 90s, basically I got bored of them. As stated, if you’re aiming to do well then the riding is a bit dull usually (well practiced routine of searching out the fast fireroads and roads for planning the route) and for polaris at least, the riding is affected by carrying a rucksack with your gear in.

Add to that the fact that I can do enduros or other events these days (which weren’t available then) that are on good routes, well supported and most importantly good fun with little planning I can see why TQs don’t attract that many.

And sorry to say it but IME MTG demonstrates the demographic that TQs attract and ‘older’ bearded blokes shouting about being vegans hardly pulls in the younger crowd… It’s all a bit beard and sandals basically.

ahwiles – Member

lots of reasons:

more riders = more trails built for the purpose = more ‘normal’ people riding bikes (wives, girlfriends, boyfriends, kids, the family that plays together stays together etc.)

scale of manufacture should bring prices down – i think we’re seeing evidence of this already.

(rockshox recons for £120)

with more bikes around, and lower prices, there should be less bike-theft.

(in much the same way that there’s little point stealing DVD players anymore; everyone’s got a couple, and you can buy a new one for £20)

if more people ride, there’ll be less ignorance / more tolerance.

if more people ride at the weekend, maybe they’ll think about riding to work/ the shops.

etc.

etc.

Most of that is more people on bikes in general which I agree with but I’m not sure specifically more people MTBing is true.

More people -> more conflict on this crowed little island.

bikes are ace.

ofcourse

I’ve been asked if I want to join a team a couple of times, but I always expect the riding to be a bit uninspiring so make my excuses.

Would rather test my map-reading abilities riding solo or with a group of pals in the Lakes, just for example.

I think people are overstating the image thing here, I mean “normal” MTBers are hardly at the bleeding edge of cool are they?

crikey – which bit of my post do you find

arrogant, superior approach to explain that we are the ones at fault

?

Yours just seemed argumentative.

I was trying to put an alternative view on all the negative views of the events.

I generally think trailquests these days will only ever attract a relatively small group of folks, but could well attract people from other disciplines or sports altogether. I don’t know if any advertising of events goes on in orienteering clubs etc…

I think a lot of the increase in cycling recently has come from people who don’t come necessarily from a participation sports background or come from sports backgrounds other than those requiring navigation, and prefer either following waymarked trails and/or gps tracks. Therefore there’s prob no desire to do navigation based events.

All of which is fair enough.

Maybe targeting non cyclists is a way to get numbers up?

Gotta say though, unless you know about trailquests, generally they are not very widely advertised.

Therefore there’s prob no desire to do navigation based events.

All of which is fair enough.

Maybe targeting non cyclists is a way to get numbers up?

Gotta say though, unless you know about trailquests, generally they are not very widely advertised.
Think I already covered most of that 😀
Generally speaking I do not do events although I did Kirry10 and the Hardrock Challenge last year only because mates asked me to. I prefer to spend any money on “just getting out and riding” nowadays, it`s all about personal priorities and choice.
There are many more bike riders who do not wish to and are not interested in what some refer to as “our sport” never mind taking part in an event of any kind. I just call it “biking” whatever the discipline 🙄

Like others did some back in the 90’s including a couple of Wight Diamond challenges.
From a competition POV though it was pointless as we would go for the ‘most off-road / exciting riding’ routes rather than using road/firetrack to get the most points.

Since trailbreak seems to have changed more towards sportives/randonees I didn’t think there were any in the South East of England now

I organised my own Navigator event once. Did it in our local riding area so the best / fastest routes between checkpoints were also the best bits of singletrack in the area.

We had a small group doing it, about 5 teams of two/three and it went down really well. All those doing it loved it, most had never done anything like that before.

Being self organised I was able to choose a good location, ensue it took in great riding and didnt have to worry about much. We then all finished up in the pub.

Quality day out.

But that wont work for large numbers. However, it would work as an introduction for small numbers. Same goes for introducing people to other events like 12/24 hr races or XC races. There are loads of people on here who reckon its just wrong to ride round a ‘muddy field’ for 12/24 hrs, but some of us enjoy it and realise its not what you think.

You wont convince some, but the curious would give it ago.

I read all this with interest as i’m not into events as such, i prefer ‘just riding’, but i like the atmosphere when i work at them and often feel like it’s a case of finding an event type i like.

Did XC racing back in the day when it was fun, but it all got a bit serious / fast / couldn’t ride after beers in the campsite night before. Did Meridas, brilliant routes but got fed up of being on great trails with too many riders on the course in general. MM – fun but riding laps doesn’t do it for me. Big days out in small groups – perfect.. and cheaper..

I heard good things about the WRT, but TQ’s don’t appeal in that the focus seems to be on navigation and checkpoint bagging.

But mix some of that open-route idea, less riders all doing the same route, less over-competitive XC-racer types who mince downhill in front of you (sorry!) etc, chuck in a bivi or 2 even, and i’m interested. But i still need a good reason to follow an organised event, rather than ‘just riding’ for myself.

Maybe something like the Black Mtns 3-day idea, with optional routes / sections each day depending on how you feel, some reliance on navigation if you wnat to find the best trails, no podium at the end just a big beer ‘n’ pasta tent with a post race party would be good. spot prizes for fun. That kind of thing.

That would introduce route choice but also be a bit more open to all, maybe. Nightmare to organise though i expect!

I didn’t expect this many replies.
To respond to some of the common themes then…

It does sound like Trailquesting has got an image problem. Some people are simply not going to do them because they don’t see them as cool.
Someone suggested once that we rebranded them as Rural Alleycats to cash in on those mad courier races through city centres.

There’s a lot of criticism of the trails used. There’s very few places in the UK with 3 hours worth of singletrack in one location. When you add in the fact that we have to use legal RoWs with no cheekyness, then apart from Cannock Chase, it’s inevitable that you’re going to have to use roads to link it all up.

The navigation and map reading is really not all that hard, it’s the route planning that needs a bit of thought.
As an example, here’s a map from a recent event.
The map is supplied with just the Control Points marked, the orange highlighted line is my intended route that I drew on before the start.

With that clipped to a map board on the ‘bars, it’s easy enough to glance down and think “Turn right when I get to the road” or “Look for a bridleway on the left about 500m after the road junction”. It doesn’t interrupt the flow of the ride much at all.
Yes, there’s a fair bit of road on that route, but proportionally, no more than HONC or Brecon Beast and no more than when I explore my own local bridleways.

In terms of getting more numbers its not like trying to make trailquests (MTBO Score if you like) the most popular activity ever its just a case of getting a few more people to local league event. I’d have thought getting 75-125 people at a local league summer evening event would be reasonable and perhaps a couple of hundred to a weekend one.

Trailquests are niche and its still really just grass routes stuff. The national league does just seem to be made of local league events rather than special events. Putting a trailquest section in something like transwales would probably up its profile but perhaps not appeal to the riders. Same thing with Singletrack classic weekender or CRC marathons. Trailquest on a saturday and marathon on the Sunday.

More people might do the local leagues if the national events like polaris get their act together. Three events a year would be good but perhaps a change to spring from a base camp with a night nav section, summer from a base and autumn with the overnight camp.

I don’t know what it is. I assume it’s explained somewhere in the thread but I just wanted to answer the OP.

HTH

Isn’t the reason that TQs are not popular and HONC/MM/Trail Centres are down to the fact that a lot of people these days want the “easy” option (and no I’m not suggesting that being able to ride 100km/24hrs off road is easy) of not having to stop every 0.5/1km to check a map.

I’ve done a few and really like em. Just don’t have a car so can’t get to any.

I really think it will be hard to grow interest in this part of the sport. What is the percentage of runners who take part in orienteering?

Maybe some form of sprint event where you get a pre printed map of controls each to be collected in a set sequence and run as a time trial. You could have different lengths available at a site. One is maybe a novice/sport level at 30km and a “pro” level at 60km (or a variation thereof). So the event is based on time and for a complete set of controls you get your actual ride time. Then for each missed control you’d get a time deduction. You’d probably have to specify a max number of missed controls available before elimination (so you don’t get people doing 1st and last check point and only taking 20 mins to cover the course.

Not really in the true spirit of orienteering but a basic level of following a route would be needed (rather than just sticking to the trail that is unravelling in front of you) and might interset folk into trying a full on event.