I’m sure you can actually understand the difference between something travelling the same speed as you in coordination with you, controlled by somebody you know (at least to a minimal extent) which is also the same size and weight as you and a car. You also like your stats, so you could always check when a cyclist was last killed when in collision with another cyclist…

I find it odd that you can accept a bike a foot off your wheel and another a foot off your elbow but a car must be 2 seconds behand and 1.5 m off your elbow

When i’ve ridden in a chaingang, existing members wanted to get to know my riding before they’d let me join in. That’s key, it’s very disciplined and not just “riding close”, there’s a lot of trust and back and forth communication between people who know each other well. It’s part of riding in a road club in my experience.

In answer to your question, it’s pretty obvious why they’d want a 1-2 ton car driven by a stranger hanging back!! Even so, when such cars are driven by fellow riders, it’s perfectly acceptable to have them close in certain circumstances, as that’s what happens in road racing with the commissaire. Look at those cars in the TDF as well.

I went on my first fast paced road ride for a long time a week or so ago. A group of 11 others plus me. Despite it being dark when we went out on roads I didn’t know etc I was much happier having them on 3 sides of me within a metre than a car not far behind me. Another rider will make a big effort to avoid you and they tangling as it’s rare either party (let alone the group) come off well. A car gets a scratch in the same situation.

Your example illustrates why riding 2 abreast is actually preferable as it halves the length – 20 riders in a good group should only take up ~20m of road which isn’t a lot longer than an HGV and given the typical speed really shouldn’t be that hard to overtake (though 20 riders single file still shouldn’t be anywhere near 75m).

I find that diagram on page3 well dodgy

I completely agree.

I wonder how many motorist s would see a group such as B in the diagram above and say, “they were riding three abreast you know!”

Whether you say they are riding 3 abreast, 2.5 abreast, staggered, or whatever, they are certainly not riding two abreast. In fact they look like just the sort of rag bag, ill-disciplined muppets who give cyclists a bad name. If you look at the image, you will realise that they would struggle to single up quickly in the event of an oncoming road hazard, and they only would do so haphazardly, since they would waste precious time as they worked out betweeen themselves who should slow down and who should maintain speed/accelerate to create the necessary gaps for the outside riders to move in. In contrast a disciplined group that is riding two abreast will quickly create gaps between the inside riders for the outside riders to slot in alternately.

Personally I will NEVER ride in a chaingang under any circumstances because it puts my safety in the hands of others. I want proper gaps between vehicles so I can stop safely without folk going into the back of me. I find it odd that you can accept a bike a foot off your wheel and another a foot off your elbow but a car must be 2 seconds behand and 1.5 m off your elbow

Riding in a group does entail a lot of trust, and requires a significant level of skill and everyone to behave similarly and predictably (is that not a bit like tandem riding though, where the stoker’s safety is in the hands of the captain?). I found the concentration required to keep a foot behind the wheel of the rider ahead to be very tiring initially, but it quickly became automatic (a bit like driving a car). That said, I now ride solo and like you I would not now be comfortable riding in a group, since I would have to re-learn those skills. I particularly dislike mass participation events because the other riders are unknown quantities with wildly varying riding standards, and I have had a couple of close calls where other riders have behaved carelessly and unpredictably.

I think most of your argument stand up tho until you get to the larger groups like in the situation I described above where due to the length of the line of riders overtaking was very difficult as yo had to overtake the whole line at once and it must have been the best part of 75m long Keep the groups of riders under 6 then overtaking is not too hard.

I think you are hoping/asking for too much to keep numbers under 6, but certainly in my club days once the numbers started exceeding 20/approaching 30, they would be split into two separate groups, although this often happens naturally in clubs with splitting into groups of different fitness levels/speed.

I’m curious, why do we never hear this about motorists?

Motorists get complained about ALL the time on here.

On the subject of the thread – I always make it as easy as possible for people to pass me when riding, and so do the people I ride with. Even the grumpy old club rider I sometimes ride with never hesistates to break the conversation and move to single file to assist other motorists.

On my regular fairly busy country lane I do pull over to let cars past, but then it’s a climb and there’s nowhere to pass for 15 mins of cyling. And I want to be a nice bloke.

Also, I’m on my MTB and all my target Strava segments are in the woods 🙂

You also like your stats, so you could always check when a cyclist was last killed when in collision with another cyclist…

There have been five in the past couple of years, if you want to know. Although, a few points on that for context:
– Most if not all of those incidents have limited relevance to this thread.
– They constitute about 2% of fatalities (depending how you count fatalities) which, given the number of miles cycled vs driven, is not small, but…
– …fatalities aren’t frequent enough to allow much useful statistical analysis, and I’ve not checked KSIs.
– Certain other fatalities and SIs might be to a greater or lesser extent a result of close riding, eg riders hitting potholes, which are inevitably harder to see in a group.

All in all I wouldn’t say that having a careless rider close to you is of little concern, or that a well-drilled group is able to nullify all risks that are inherent to group riding.

I fully accept the chaingang thing is about me not about chaingangs. I used to ride motorcycles a lot with some very good riders indeed. We discussed about riding like police riders do – formation flying where you ride alongside each other in the same lane. Physically I could do it but mentally I just wouldn’t / couldn’t. Its nothing like the tandem – then you are on the same vehicle. I just psychologically cannot ride that close to other riders. I won’t draft them and wont allow anyone to draft me. I want my 2 seconds clear front and rear

I cannot understand tho why anyone would do it and think it very unsafe – and its breaking the highway code.

I’m surprised – can I just go on a slight derail and ask the circumstances?

Really? Which rule?

tjagain – Member
I fully accept the chaingang thing is about me not about chaingangs. I used to ride motorcycles a lot with some very good riders indeed. We discussed about riding like police riders do – formation flying where you ride alongside each other in the same lane. Physically I could do it but mentally I just wouldn’t / couldn’t. Its nothing like the tandem – then you are on the same vehicle. I just psychologically cannot ride that close to other riders. I won’t draft them and wont allow anyone to draft me. I want my 2 seconds clear front and rear

I cannot understand tho why anyone would do it and think it very unsafe – and its breaking the highway code.
You’ve said that you won’t do it, and that you don’t understand it – that’s fine – don’t go all internet pedant on us like you used to please.

I’m curious, why do we never hear this about motorists?[/quote]
Motorists get complained about ALL the time on here.[/quote]

Yes – but it would have helped if you’d kept the context (I’ve added it back in). When did you last hear it suggested that a motorist was giving other motorists “a bad name” even on here? That does appear to be something exclusive to cyclists.

aracer – is there not a rule stating you shuld leave a 2 second gap?

In a chaingang what happens if someone gets a blowout or hits a pothole -how do you avoid taking down the riders around you?

tjagain » I cannot understand tho why anyone would do it and think it very unsafe – and its breaking the highway code.

Really? Which rule?

Its the general one involving not being a dick! 😀

I’m surprised – can I just go on a slight derail and ask the circumstances?

One during a race, one failure to stop on a cycle path, one on an evening social ride, one on a country lane where two companions collided, and one in London in circumstances I forget but I think it was on a cycle path of some description. Memory is hazy.

All on here with purple markers next to them, anyway: https://beyondthekerb.org.uk/casebook/

Bez » There have been five in the past couple of years

I’m surprised – can I just go on a slight derail and ask the circumstances?
I can recall at least a couple incidents where someone has hit a pothole whilst group riding leading to a fatality.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/fatherofthree-killed-in-cycling-crash-after-hitting-pothole-that-had-not-been-repaired-a3194606.html
I’m assuming that he wasn’t first in line.
There are clearly risks involved in group riding. You can mitigate them in various ways by making sure that everyone knows what they are doing, but the risk is still there. It is up to you if you want to accept them

Really? Which rule?

126.

Thats the chappie Bez

Stopping Distances. Drive at a speed that will allow you to stop well within the distance you can see to be clear. You should

leave enough space between you and the vehicle in front so that you can pull up safely if it suddenly slows down or stops. The safe rule is never to get closer than the overall stopping distance (see Typical Stopping Distances diagram, shown above)
allow at least a two-second gap between you and the vehicle in front on roads carrying faster-moving traffic and in tunnels where visibility is reduced. The gap should be at least doubled on wet roads and increased still further on icy roads

I notice it says ‘drive’
Honestly TJ. I get it that you don’t like riding in a group. There are clearly additional risk factors involved. But don’t be an arse and make out that it is somehow illegal.

There are clearly risks involved in group riding. You can mitigate them in various ways by making sure that everyone knows what they are doing, but the risk is still there. It is up to you if you want to accept them

I suppose they are not putting anyone else at risk tho so morally acceptable a bit like drunk cycling

Edit – I didn’t say it was illegal – I said it was aginst the highway code

Good point imnotverygood – it does say “drivers and riders ( meaning motorcycle riders)” not “all road users”

so like drink drive limits or speeding is this part of our road rules that does not apply to cyclists?

Edit – it also says at the top of the section “This section should be read by all drivers, motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders.”

It’s a bit tricky, because much of that section of the HC does only apply to motor vehicles, or have different requirements for pedal cycles, despite this not being explicit in the HC itself.

That said, (and I’m pontificating a little here so corrections are welcome) I would expect insurers or civil courts to treat riding into the back of someone to be treated similarly to driving into the back of someone.

I suppose they are not putting anyone else at risk tho so morally acceptable a bit like drunk cycling

What’s the first rule of STW? Which you are breaking.

Don’t mention STW? ❓

I know that recognising the non-absolute nature of morals and their myriad relationships to other abstract social constructs is important, but I wasn’t aware it was top of the list here.

When did you last hear it suggested that a motorist was giving other motorists “a bad name” even on here?

Ah I see. Yes. Well that’s prejudice, all part of being a minority group isn’t it? See racism/homophibia etc etc.

so like drink drive limits or speeding is this part of our road rules that does not apply to cyclists?

Indeed, hence my challenge. Just because it should be read by all users doesn’t mean it applies equally to them. Elsewhere the HC acknowledges cycling two abreast and immediately behind another cyclist as being acceptable (unless you think that when it advises to single out it means you should drop way behind the other rider – which it makes no mention of).

But then the HC is a mess regarding cycling anyway, and in need of serious revision in some sections.

Interesting stuff.

I guess chaingangs are something I will never understand. Its one of the things people who don’t cycle complain about a lot like RLJ and pavement riding. But unlike RLJ where I have been told off forcefully on here for doing it even when it inconvenienced no one and reduces the danger to me because it winds up car drivers chaingangs are ot critised by anyone.

I can see ( after this discussion) its probably not against the highway code and certainly not illegal but it seems to be treated differently by cyclists to RLJing and pavement riding despite irritating motyerists as much

I guess with chaingangs it’s all about working together in perfect harmony, or something, probably feels pretty good knocking out the miles as efficiently as possible, having a bit of a craic with your mates, trying not to be the one suffering the most and stopping for a nice cup of tea and a bun.

I can see ( after this discussion) its probably not against the highway code and certainly not illegal but it seems to be treated differently by cyclists to RLJing and pavement riding despite irritating motyerists as much

Not as much as 20 riders occupying a 40 second space of road whilst they leave a 2 second gap betweeen themselves.
EDIT Just because drivers get upset by it doesn’t mean that it is wrong. Lots of drivers get upset by people not cycling on cyclepaths for example, or dare I say it: cyclists not wearing helmets. Feel free to adjust your behaviour according to the misconceptions of the ignorant.

In a chaingang what happens if someone gets a blowout or hits a pothole -how do you avoid taking down the riders around you?

The answer to this is that no one hits a pothole in the first place. OK that’s overstating it, but such accidents will be rare and probably comparable with the accident rates for solo riders. The riders at the front of the group will be looking out for road hazards and will communicate them well in advance verbally and/or with hand signals to the riders behind, so that they will easily avoid the hazard. In a group, the riders at the front will be concentrating much more than when riding solo. You could think of it as being akin to the difference in concentration you give to riding on a red run at a trail centre compared with an empty gravel track.

I guess it’s like any other potentially hazardous activity where people are taking part either as a team working together or as individuals who may be affected by the actions of other participants, e.g. Formula 1: they don’t just behave as a collection of individuals, and instead they act and function as a group (think of it as being assimilated by the Borg).

Of course the other Rule that chaingangs regularly break is that of stopping at traffic lights. Usually if the first goes through, they all do. I guess there’s an argument that someone mid-pack braking might end up causing a collision as those following pile into them but that just illustrates the fact that they are riding too close together.

Of course the other Rule that chaingangs regularly break is that of stopping at traffic lights. Usually if the first goes through, they all do. I guess there’s an argument that someone mid-pack braking might end up causing a collision as those following pile into them but that just illustrates the fact that they are riding too close together.

At this point someone* will pop up & point out that in Spain a chaingang is considerd to be one long vehicle for traffic light purposes.

* looks like that will be me then.

Checks outside.

Not Spain. 😥

Whether you say they are riding 3 abreast, 2.5 abreast, staggered, or whatever, they are certainly not riding two abreast. In fact they look like just the sort of rag bag, ill-disciplined muppets who give cyclists a bad name. If you look at the image, you will realise that they would struggle to single up quickly in the event of an oncoming road hazard, and they only would do so haphazardly, since they would waste precious time as they worked out betweeen themselves who should slow down and who should maintain speed/accelerate to create the necessary gaps for the outside riders to move in. In contrast a disciplined group that is riding two abreast will quickly create gaps between the inside riders for the outside riders to slot in alternately.

LOL, Bloody hell, It wasn’t meant to be taken literally! It’s just an example of how a group of riders riding together is safer and makes passing significantly easier than singling out.

I am moved to anecdote (may have told this before).
Group of 15 approaching a pedestrian crossing. Light goes changes just as first pair arrives, neither they nor the second pair could’ve stopped. 3rd & 4th probably could, but it would have been entertaining. 5th, ,6th & 7th pairs definitely could have stopped but group momentum kept them going. Your truly as tail end charlie stopped, because I am that kinda guy. Taxi driver pulls up alongside me, but in order to yell through his window at me goes right through the white line onto the crossing. He says ” Well done for stopping! All those others didn’t yadda yadda yadda” Clearly not actually congratulating me at all. I was about to point out that he had just broken the same law that he was complaining about my club-mates breaking when the elderly lady crossing the road banged on his bonnet and shrieked. ” You should stop behind the white line. Typical Taxis!”
His face was a picture.

Guys – i am not just trying to be argumentative here – its something I am interested in and want to understand a bit more and this thread has helped that so thanks for that chaps
But

EDIT Just because drivers get upset by it doesn’t mean that it is wrong. Lots of drivers get upset by people not cycling on cyclepaths for example, or dare I say it: cyclists not wearing helmets. Feel free to adjust your behaviour according to the misconceptions of the ignorant.

I have been berated on here for admitting I RLJ on occasion inconveniencing no one and improving my safety. OK thats breaking the law but the main reason I was berated was for irritating car drivers.

LOL @imnotverygood

Guys – I am not just trying to be argumentative here – its something I am interested in and want to understand a bit more and this thread has helped that so thanks for that chaps

This is why#. We do it properly, train riders and obey the HC. That includes stopping at red lights.

#Can’t embed videos, so it’s a FB link.

You’re making the mistake of thinking we’re homogeneous on here. The people berating you for that are also likely to criticise people riding 2 abreast in groups (and not singling out on the occasions the HC nonsensically suggests*)

I have to admit I possibly have in the past criticised people (maybe even you) for RLJ, but I’ve realised such a position is hypocritical. I don’t tend to do it myself, but then I don’t go through that many traffic lights and it doesn’t tend to be an issue (and I don’t count going through lights which don’t trip for cyclists – they’re faulty, so it doesn’t count). I daresay if I lived in London I would – I’m not so sure about Edinburgh, but I’ve mainly cycled there on a Sunday and not since 2008 I think so things may have changed. Certainly “it annoys motorists” is a totally invalid reason for not doing something, and legally the law breaking is exactly the same as a car crossing the ASL which I see almost every day.

*my sister is probably more argumentative[s]stubborn[/s] determined than me – was out riding with her once, riding two abreast when we were stopped by a policeman. She proceeded to explain to him why the HC was wrong and he genuinely went away better educated and agreeing with us.

I’m with you OP, just plain old bad manners innit.