MrsIHN were chatting over the weekend about the recent coronation shenanigans, and I was saying that I’m no great Monarchist but I’m not really bothered about having Charlie as the head of state as the alternative, an elected President or something, is just another political office when we already have a Head Of Running The Country, i.e. the PM.

So she asked, and I couldn’t really answer – why do we need a Head of State? Couldn’t we function quite happily without one?

I think the answer is that it’s a kind of balance against the PM. Presidents obviously have more power than our King. But the combination of a second house and King prevent the PM and government pointing things To far in any one direction

You’re missing an absolute cornerstone of British culture here, whether stated explicitly or not, We operate a (proportionate) Blame culture. We like need to have people in ‘Figurehead’ roles to point at loudly proclaim to be the cause of all our problems, grumble a bit more, then carry on.

Without one or two people symbolically sat atop the social/political piles of shite that make up our great nation’s structures it would all come tumbling down…

You’re missing an absolute cornerstone of British culture here, whether stated explicitly or not, We operate a (proportionate) Blame culture. We like need to have people in ‘Figurehead’ roles to point at loudly proclaim to be the cause of all our problems, grumble a bit more, then carry on.

Without one or two people symbolically sat atop the social/political piles of shite that make up our great nation’s structures it would all come tumbling down…

Oh, absolutely, I’m not saying we don’t need Someone At The Top, for both running-the-place and the subsequent blame-apportioning purposes, what I’m saying is why do we need two people at the top, the PM and the King/President/Whatevs?

I think it goes back to the Magna Carta and how power was structured through that.
No idea of the details though, other than some lords wanted a bit more control because they didn’t like the way the king was running things but he still wanted the king at the top to pull together under/blame (depending on how things went).

I think in the UK its mostly symbolic really, although I guess all governments and nations need a separate personal who’s above all the petty politics to be the physical embodiment of a nation, some-one who can “pronounce” or can “open the government session” and by the same token be the person who has the powers that “close the session” if it all gets a bit Black uniforms stern looks and Roman salutes…

i suppose it’s better than Russia where you have Putin who’s head of carnage and corruption, compared to Germany where the president is more benign. Big scale of variance.

Presidents obviously have more power than our King. But the combination of a second house and King prevent the PM and government pointing things To far in any one direction

If you compare our government to the USA then it’s not that dissimilar in many ways.

PM = President
Cabinet = Cabinet
Back Benches = Congress and Senate

The only issue is that constitutionally (or Magna Carta’lly if you’re pedantic) you need someone to formally organize it, and whichever way you do it isn’t infallible. Remember under the USA’s system was only able to inaugurate Biden as President because Mike Pence resisted Trump.

So who do you trust more, Charles, or the deputy PM who was probably selected from the parties fringe to appease them. Can you imagine Braverman/Farage/Mogg in that scenario? So I’d argue that a hereditary role is probably as good as any. The other options being democratic (where the person is probably from the same mould as the person you’re trying to elect out of office), random selection or as a lot of the world seems to default to but never with good results, the head of the army?

The Head of State is basically a symbol of the nation, it’s a person who represents the country for ceremonial duties. The Head of Government actually has power to do things. They can be the same person, but in modern Britain, the Monarch has purely ceremonial duties.

I understand the desire to abolish the hereditary monarchy, but if that happens, some other way of choosing a Head of State would be needed. A democratically elected HOS would bring other problems, for example, people who voted for the winner would expect them to take an active role in politics. If the HOS was appointed by Parliament (like Governors General in other countries), then you would have campaigning for the position etc.

(Before people start accusing me of being a monarchist, I personally think that the best long-term thing to do would be an appointed Governor General type HOS, appointed for a fixed term of maybe 10 years, but I also don’t think it’s something that should be done without a referendum and broad popular support).

Tradition.

International relations.

Tourism.

For all that royal ‘power’ has largely been lip service for years despite squeals about “meddling,” I still quite like the idea of having a hail mary contingency plan given the route our current government is heading. I yearn for the day that Charlie tells Rishi Rich to get ****ed.

We should, IIRC, find a Swiss correspondent on this topic.

why do we need two people at the top,

Well they serve slightly different purposes, Focus all your Class-based rage and resentment on HRH, and your frustrations at how the political, legal and logistical side of the nation is being mismanaged on whichever goon in a suit occupies No10. this week…

Unlike other countries we have over-developed our ideas on ‘Class’ and part of keeping the great unwashed in line is maintaining that stratification by giving people a means to vent, or tug their forelock in patriotic supplication. It’s all part of maintaining a dysfunctional status quo that has somehow worked (for the most part) for a fair old while… The British don’t really do much Rioting or have insurrections anymore, we complain to each other about stuff, assign some blame to the visible figureheads and then pop out the bunting and wave a flag…

Other nations don’t have such ridiculous class structures and hence don’t need that reinforcing with a monarchy…

The U.S. President is both the Head of State and Head of Government (and the Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces). A British P.M. is only the Head of Government, but is also the leader of the majority in the legislature. In the U.S., the majority leader in the House of Representatives is not a cabinet minister and more often than not, from a different party than the President. The cabinet is appointed by the President and they are not members of the legislature, so the executive and legislative branches are nearly totally separated (the Vice-President having a tie-breaking vote in the Senate being a major exception to this).

The theory of separation of powers in a U.S. style presidential system is nice, but presidential systems cause huge problems. I think that Westminster style parliamentary systems (with some type of proportional representation electoral system) are much more effective in practice.

Just that continual reminder of the haves and the have nots.

So don’t get any ideas above your station.

I guess all governments and nations need a separate personal who’s above all the petty politics to be the physical embodiment of a nation

No, they don’t need one (USA, Russia), but many do.

This whole idea that Brits are too thick to elect a ceremonial Head of State to meet dignitaries, hand out medals, open swimming pools and perhaps be the voice of the nation on holidays and tragedies…is total nonsense. Ireland does it fine. So does Israel.

 A democratically elected HOS would bring other problems, for example, people who voted for the winner would expect them to take an active role in politics.

Rubbish.

This whole idea that Brits are too thick to elect a ceremonial Head of State to meet dignitaries, hand out medals, open swimming pools and perhaps be the voice of the nation on holidays and tragedies…is total nonsense.

The potential problem is that an election will require candidates to campaign for the job, which means they need to market themselves as different and better than their rivals. Just imagine if a wealthy right-wing reality TV star with a long history of tax evasion and sexual assault campaigned on a slogan of “Make UK Great Again” and won, then declared that he would not sign into law any legislation that he disagreed with. For example, if he refused to allow any progressive taxation or spending on foreign aid. Or, if he refused to accept a Prime Minister that he didn’t like (see Gough Whitlam, for example). I know, the general population would never be silly enough to elect someone like that to an important job, but it’s a useful thought experiment.

This whole idea that Brits are too thick to elect a ceremonial Head of State to meet dignitaries, hand out medals, open swimming pools and perhaps be the voice of the nation on holidays and tragedies…is total nonsense.

You’ve been following recent cases of allowing the British public the opportunity to express a preference, right?

In the U.S., the majority leader in the House of Representatives is not a cabinet minister and more often than not, from a different party than the President.

Which is why it’s taken them >50 years after WW2 to get to something approximating universal healthcare whereas we did it in 5. They only have effective* government for 2 out of every 8 years. Which means that only 2 in 16 years are on your side.

*as in, can get anything done. The other side would argue that the government arguing with itself and not doing anything is the most effective way to run a government!

Tradition

Cool lets bring back capital punishment.

International relations.

In some cases, mostly backward countries which have absolute monarchies themeselves, but it isnt clear overall outside the whining of the royalists that this is true. Generally they just squeal its true and expect everyone else to doff their caps.

Tourism

Yeah France etc does so badly.

For all that royal ‘power’ has largely been lip service for years despite squeals about “meddling,” I still quite like the idea of having a hail mary contingency plan given the route our current government is heading

AH yes the schrodingers monarchy. Sadly though despite the well proven evidence of their interference in democracy you have to be pretty dumb to even begin to dream they would interfere in the countries as opposed to their own interests.

Just to be clear, before this gets diverted into “why do we need the Monarchy?”, that’s not what I’m asking. I’m asking why we need a Head of State as well as a PM?

I too do struggle to know why the PM can’t also be the head of state…..or rather not why they could not be now, but why you couldn’t sort the rules so they were.

If we had to have someone different I’d be up for some sort of papal system rather than a public vote – lock all the MPs in a room until they choose one. But, to make sure we don’t have a total fruitcake you set the majority vote bar really high – like 80% so the person who gets it must have cross party support.

Then who gets on the candidate list – It could go either way – someone who has been in the house for 30+ years or alternatively it could be they have never been in politics. Basically trying to rig the system so it’s a David Attenborough or Ken Clarke type of person.

Lastly – could the job be a little bit like the speaker of the commons – once they get the gig their personal opinions on the political matters of the day are never heard. What constitutes ‘politics’ is of course a murky concept.

Lastly – could the job be a little bit like the speaker of the commons – once they get the gig their personal opinions on the political matters of the day are never heard. What constitutes ‘politics’ is of course a murky concept.

I can’t see any particular reason why the speaker couldn’t be the head of state?

Trouble with any larger democratic means is it would end up with the same issue as the US where you either end up with absolute power, or none. Next best option would be maybe elect one immediately before a GE, so that at least the HoS is going to respect the result of the GE. Then split the power such that the PM (and rest of government) has all the power, and all the HoS does is rubber stamp their election.

So she asked, and I couldn’t really answer – why do we need a Head of State? Couldn’t we function quite happily without one?

If she’s ever served on a committee then she would understand why there has to me ‘someone’ at the top.

I think principally we have the Royal HoS because it deflects the woke leftie tofu eating underclass from realising that its the government that has been **** them over for the last 200 years.

Then, when the right wing political/media elite decide its time, they can pour oil on the flames and incite a republican referendum while quietly selling off palaces and treasures to their mates at bargain prices as it is clearly “the will of the people”.

I meant this as a joke, but I reckon it could be more true than I realise.

Which is why it’s taken them >50 years after WW2 to get to something approximating universal healthcare whereas we did it in 5. They only have effective* government for 2 out of every 8 years. Which means that only 2 in 16 years are on your side.

Which is why I’m not an advocate of the U.S. system. Sorry if I didn’t make that clear.

The theory of separation of powers in a U.S. style presidential system is nice, but presidential systems cause huge problems. I think that Westminster style parliamentary systems (with some type of proportional representation electoral system) are much more effective in practice.

Just let whoever wins Strictly be head of state for the year. Their one job would be to either rubber stamp or veto legislation, based on a text voting system where every vote gets entered into a prize draw

Cool lets bring back capital punishment.

Don’t be ludicrous.

In some cases, mostly backward countries which have absolute monarchies themeselves, but it isnt clear overall outside the whining of the royalists that this is true.

Which backward countries are you referring to?

In any case, who would you prefer to send as a diplomatic head of state instead of the new king / previous queen? Sunak? Johnson? May?

Yeah France etc does so badly.

Different countries are different. Who’d have thought it.

AH yes the schrodingers monarchy. Sadly though despite the well proven evidence of their interference in democracy you have to be pretty dumb to even begin to dream they would interfere in the countries as opposed to their own interests.

What do you suppose has been happening in parliament for the last decade or so?

In the USA their head of state is also the executive. This causes problems, because as well as being a political actor, the president is also the leader of the country in apolitial matters. People often feel the need to get behind the president even if they don’t like his politics. That’s why being a US president is a much bigger deal than being PM, and the governing party can boot out the PM if they are embarassing themselves. There’s no way Trump would have served 5 years if he’d been a UK PM.

I think it’s a great idea to have someone non-political to represent and symbolise the country and its leadership, whilst not actually doing anything. I’m not sure we need to spent a shit-ton of money on it though and I’ve no attachment to the hereditary monarchy.. Although I appreciate a lot of the money ‘spent’ on royals is not actually spent, as such. But that’s another discussion.

Unlike other countries we have over-developed our ideas on ‘Class’

True. But,

and part of keeping the great unwashed in line is maintaining that stratification by giving people a means to vent, or tug their forelock in patriotic supplication.

and

Generally they just squeal its true and expect everyone else to doff their caps.

Where do you get this supplication and cap-doffing from? Are you here from the 1800s? The people who are into this stuff haven’t just come up from t’pit where they know their place, mostly they seem to want to wave a little flag and drink Pimms. The only caps I saw on telly were crappy union jack bowler-style plastic hats.

Also,

“Why do we need a head of state?” and “why do we need a monarch” are two different questions.

Unlike other countries we have over-developed our ideas on ‘Class’

Yes, not like the world’s most populous democracy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India

i suppose it’s better than Russia where you have Putin who’s head of carnage and corruption

There was that 3 million euros Charles received from a senior Qatari politician. The money was in a suitcase, a holdall and some fortnum and mason carrier bags.

Im sure though that was completely above board, after all, thats normally how billionaires pass money around.

In any case, who would you prefer to send as a diplomatic head of state instead of the new king / previous queen? Sunak? Johnson? May?

Don’t we send both/either PM and monarch to meet other HoSs at the moment, depending on the occasion?

I don’t know (or particularly care). That being the case though, having more than one representative seems handy.

There was that 3 million euros Charles received from a senior Qatari politician. The money was in a suitcase, a holdall and some fortnum and mason carrier bags.

Im sure though that was completely above board, after all, thats normally how billionaires pass money around.

What do you suppose €3M is to billionaires? That’s like me buying a pint. Thanks for the three mil mate, stick it in the corner with the others.

Charlie boy is seemingly worth about £2billion and the royal family as a whole is chasing about 100bn as far as I can tell. He’s impoverished compared to some, the Saudi royals run into the trillions.

… also, there may be a cultural thing going on there. When I was selling my house I had several (stupidly low) offers from Asian blokes who wanted to pay in literal cash.

We don’t. It’s just somewhere on a spectrum between absolute dictatorship and absolute chaos.

Thinking about this again. Actually Liz and now Chaz give a pretty good case for how much a Head of State is unnecessary. Not for the presence/impact they have here (after all, they open parliaments, visit the odd hospital etc on a regular basis and meet the PM weekly) but how they perform their duties in the other 13 nations they are head of state in also.

Take Australia for example – their last head of state deigned to spend time on their soil 16 times – 1954, 1963, 1970, 1973, 1974, 1977, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1986, 1988, 1992, 2000, 2002, 2006 and 2011. Which is pretty damned impressive considering how far away is it. But that still amounts to 70 odd days in the country all up – in 70 years…..so roughly one day in every 360. Before 1954 The Australians had never actually had their head of state step foot on their shores and in the last 12 years since her last visit they seem to be doing just fine.

So I guess what I’m saying is if you can get by for 12 years without your head of state swinging by, it’s a pretty safe bet you don’t really need one.

Tradition.

International relations.

Tourism.

For all that royal ‘power’ has largely been lip service for years despite squeals about “meddling,” I still quite like the idea of having a hail mary contingency plan given the route our current government is heading. I yearn for the day that Charlie tells Rishi Rich to get ****ed.

Let us know when you get back to planet earth.

then declared that he would not sign into law any legislation that he disagreed with.

This is a silly argument. Obviously any reshuffling from our current semi-written constitution with the Sovereign as HoS to an elected or appointed HoS would be accompanied by statute defining and limiting their powers. Obviously.

Is it only British people you think can’t be trusted to elect a ceremonial head of state or all people? The Irish seem to be doing an okay job of it.

However, I would settle for the winner of Strictly or the Eurovision nominee.

Take Australia for example – their last head of state deigned to spend time on their soil 16 times 

Australia, Canada etc have federal and state Governors-General who fulfil all of those roles on behalf of the actual Head of State. They are, basically, the ceremonial heads of state. So actually Australia is a bad example of a country without a Head of State, and a good example of an appointed Head of State…

…although it did go badly in 1977…