The council are largely to blame for this. Blame where it is due

Fair enough TJ but it was the one that sprung to mind. Can’t remember others offhand save for the parliament building and that was a long while ago and it is a really beautiful (if expensive) building.

Sometimes feels like we are being abandoned to our fate.

That happened a while ago and you can blame the english voters for it. Excuses can be made, the media made them vote tory, the Labour party aren’t good enough etc, but ultimately the english people voted for their tory MPs as that is what they want.

international league tables

not relevant to anything but pub chat boasting.

We know, we get that but imagine Boris has never existed, now what are you going to do about drug and alcohol related deaths,

I’m not sure where you get your information. They have been really quite clear that they believe we should have a “Portugal” style policy on drugs. That doesn’t need independence – it just needs a UK government to cooperate. On a smaller scale there were things that the SNP wanted to trial in Glasgow around safe places for people to inject, but was blocked by WM – why would any government block a trial that might save lives if they won’t get the blame if its a failure?

On alcohol, they’ve gone to great lengths to introduce minimum pricing. That’s obviously something that takes generations to have an impact, but I’ve not heard anyone else with quick solutions? Plenty of people in hospitality claiming that the only reason pubs are not back to normal is because of SNP war on alcohol (I don’t believe that, but there’s enough sentiment “on the ground” to believe that anti-SNP people here actually believe they are doing too much already).

hospital waiting lists,

That’s an easy opposition metric to throw around (especially now) but there is an aging population, finite funding pool, ever-increasing medical/surgical options, its far from a trivial issue. So what are the SNP not doing that they should be, that would have an impact on Hospital Waiting lists in the next parliament?

the definite drop in educational standards?

I think there is a lot of debate about whether there has actually been any drop in education standards. School leavers about now are the first crop of CfE pupils, and that has undoubtedly resulted in a lot of change and upheaval. I genuinely think the CfE is a good concept, probably not as well implemented to start with as it could have been, some of that blame will rest with the Scot Gov, expecting major change quickly, some of it rests with Local Authorities (who are of course notoriously bad at change) and some will rest with teachers or their unions – but if I ask long-standing teachers if they think the class of 2021 is poorer educated than the class of 2011, 2001, 1991 or 1981 I’m quite sure that overall the answer will be no. Of course, there may be specific skills you think an 17 yr old leaving school should have, or even would have had 30 yrs ago and don’t now, but in the round it seems they’ll be at least as well equipped for the next stage of life as they were before. They also have a host of skills and knowledge that didn’t exist historically. I can assure you that my children understand far more about how they are learning and what is expected of them than I did 30-40 years ago. I saw a teacher friend tweet recently a report which said that there was actually no decline. I’ll see if I can unearth the link.

…bring back qualifications similar to that of standard grades.

I’m unclear how Standard Grades differ significantly from National 5s. Of course, plenty of people in the 90’s complained that we should just “bring back O-grades”.

Is this vote for the SNP more of a vote away from Westminster, as opposed to a vote for independence?

If you don’t want to vote for them, don’t vote for them. It’s pretty simple.

The way I see it this election is about a vote for independence or against. Its a defacto referendum.

The SNP government like all governments that go on for more than 10 years or so is running out of steam, ideas and energy. Infighting as well – the usual pattern. Sturgeon did reinvigorate things but that has not lasted. A change of government is needed but that needs to be after independence not before.

So for me lend your constituency vote to the SNP and in most places second vote green. Lets get independence then create the modern progressive scotland we aspire to.

I just can’t get into the blue painted face, anti English Xenophobic attitude that most SNP voters I’ve met seem to have.

I’m unclear how Standard Grades differ significantly from National 5s

everyone that did standard grades did the same work. National’s don’t give everyone a chance. CfE means every school can do things differently and that isn’t always the best. When you did standard grades everyone got the chance at a general qualification which actually means something unlike todays Nat 4. CfE is a shit show.

@convert – a vote for the incumbent isn’t a ringing endorsement for them, rather it is telling the opposition that you’d rather put up with the incumbent than let them touch it. Your alternative (and I think a common one) is not to vote at all.

The two votes system actually means you can pick a combination of parties to suit your tastes, and e.g. if you believe outright majorities are generally bad for parliamentary scrutiny can try to balance your first vote! Uniquely this year, it also gives you the option to send a message to Mr Salmond to **** off (or if you are so inclined welcome him back).

If I was in the highlands I’d probably give my list vote to Andy Wightman. I think there is a lot to be said for the principles of a person who stands up against the party and goes it alone. I voted for Margo MacDonald when she did that, and IMHO she was one of the best backbench MSP Scotland had. Parliament needs more people not beholden to a party. If I was in a constituency where the only party supporting IndyRef2 was SNP, then if you are a “pro-independence” voter I think you probably need to put that cross next to SNP to send a message to the rest to move on from belligerent opposition of independence and support the debate and justify their position.

I don’t understand why none of the opposition parties has taken the position of “we think Scotland does deserve another debate on its constitution after Brexit; we think that would probably be best served within the Union, but the UK needs to justify that with more than sentimentality and flag-waving and so we will support a motion for IndyRef2 towards the end of the next parliament”. Given the Liberals position on Europe, UK federalism, and UK constitutional reform it would seem like it was crying out for them to have gone this way. Labour could probably have played that card well, in both Holyrood 2021 and Westminster 2024 – by saying “if the union matters beyond all else vote Tory; if independence matters beyond all else vote SNP – if you care about schools, hospitals, policing etc – vote for us.”.

I just can’t get into the blue painted face, anti English Xenophobic attitude that most SNP voters I’ve met seem to have.

Its funny ‘cos I never meet this (mythical?) type. Nearest on here is epicyclo and even he only hates dead old englishmen who were horrid to his ancestors

Can’t remember others offhand save for the parliament building

Labour. And the main ERI scandal. SNP can own the sick kids eff up tho

I just can’t get into the blue painted face, anti English Xenophobic attitude that most SNP voters I’ve met seem to have.

1 in 3 of the adult population of Scotland voted SNP at the last Westminster election, so to be “most” voters – 1 in 6 of scotland’s adult population would need to be blue faced anti English, which is just not true. There is of course a very small faction of the Scottish population like you describe, but its more likely that you’ve been talking to lots of SNP voters without realising it because they hadn’t fitted your stereotype.

So for me lend your constituency vote to the SNP and in most places second vote green. Lets get independence then create the modern progressive scotland we aspire to.

It looks like the majority for independence is pretty slim, similar to that of the Brexit vote. I can’t help thinking that one thing we should have learnt from Brexit is allowing a simple majority vote on such a major decision is a really bad idea – it hardly creates unity, you just piss off 49% of the people.

I just can’t get into the blue painted face, anti English Xenophobic attitude that most SNP voters I’ve met seem to have.

Don’t worry, they won’t be missing you.

slowol; Parliament building wasn’t on SNP’s watch, nor were the trams. In actual fact NOBODY wanted the trams as Edinburgh’s bus service was really good. As TJ said though; the sick kids hospital was a cock up and I am not convinced by CfE. A bit bemused by people suggesting anybody supporting indy is the other cheek to the Brexiters.

everyone that did standard grades did the same work.

@poah I realise I’m dragging us off-topic here, but I’ve obviously only got the experience of my own school (back in the dark old days) and my children’s school. Clearly, not everyone at Standard Grade did the same work – there was Foundation, General and Credit papers; you still picked subjects, not all subjects were available in all schools and the combinations of subjects that were possible varied between school. My memory is rusty, but I’m sure that in subjects like English the teacher still chose their preferred set text, and (and this might have been higher) there were elements of Computing that the school picked if you were going to answer question A or question B (say Networks or Databases – only 1 was required so you were only taught one; naturally the one the teacher perceived as easier!).

So how does that compare to Nat 5 – the exam papers are set nationally so presumably, the course content is not hugely different between schools? Or have I missed something?

National’s don’t give everyone a chance.

I’m not sure what that means. I have an inkling, from what I’ve seen, but I’m not sure the blame for that rests with Scot Gov rather than LA’s/Head Teachers trying to game the system – but I may be misunderstanding what you mean. [And LA/HTs gamed the system under S-Grades and probably O-Grades too!]

CfE means every school can do things differently and that isn’t always the best.

The corollary is bad for innovation in education. Every school being a replica moulding of the official agenda is probably great for those who will go through the education system machine and pop out the other side a success. I’m not sure it works so well for those who don’t conform to classic education, or those who are significantly more advanced than the model was designed for.

When you did standard grades everyone got the chance at a general qualification which actually means something unlike todays Nat 4. CfE is a shit show.

I’m sceptical – who got a good qualification at Standard Grade, did no further study in that area and went on to use it as a qualification that “meant something”? A foundation (or if we are honest even a 4) at Standard Grade was hardly a resounding endorsement for either the pupil or the teacher/school/education system. Quite a few people funnelled towards Foundation/General programmes at my school across a very broad range of subjects, who might actually have got Credit results in one or two of them if the focus was narrower etc; everyone did that at the same age regardless of readiness.

Which school leavers today are leaving with only Nat 4’s, and not going on to something productive, but would have left with credible Standard Grades and gone on to something better? Is that just the qualifications framework – or has society changed so there are fewer jobs for poorly qualified 16-year-olds? There are problems where leaving school at 16 with no useful qualifications and no plan is a realistic choice, but I don’t think those issues stem from the qualification framework any more than from the teachers or even the pupils themselves. It’s a bigger issue to fix where something is preventing pupils from engaging in any part of the curriculum.

This is not about leaving something that is for the wider good, the tory party have never been, and never will be for the wider good.

Here’s a news flash, independance is about leaving the union, not the Tory party, that’s the same argument for leaving the EU because of the nasty Brussels bureaucrats.

You don’t seem to get how voting works.

The point you keep making is the English voted Tory which is not true, a third didn’t even bother to vote, many others voted against the Torys, a majority is large parts of the UK. If Scotland hadn’t been so inward looking and voting SNP the Torys probably wouldn’t be in power.

It is about leaving the Tory party though. Scotland has never voted for them and had them for so long.

It should all be about leaving the union not the Tories but this is realistically the only way to do it. It may seem short sighted but it appears to be the only way.

Also Scotland was completely irrelevant in the last election @stumpyjon. ANY combination of seats in Scotland. Even if 100% labour would still have been a Tory majority

I’m finding the whole thing pretty chaotic. Every option is fairly mediocre but I think we just need to use the current options to get where we want to be. for me, getting nukes removed, better looking after wildlife and the environment, and independence are my main drivers.

I’ve always tried to avoid the passionate aspect of independence but now think it’s actually a really sober and sensible option. I’d probably still choose the whole union thing to work and for us to all be part of the EU (and work on making it better from the inside) but I think that’s hugely unlikely for now.

Im not sure if Salmond’s Alba makes things better or worse (we already have pro-indy a super majority – they’ve just made the word up).

I’ll be voting Green / SNP.

It looks like the majority for independence is pretty slim, similar to that of the Brexit vote. I can’t help thinking that one thing we should have learnt from Brexit is allowing a simple majority vote on such a major decision is a really bad idea – it hardly creates unity, you just piss off 49% of the people.

@footflaps – I 100% agree (and I said the same in 2014). Such a big decision should not be taken by 50.1% of the people who actually turn out to vote, because people can always say it was a minority of the population. The logical thing is to make it a requirement that it’s 50.1% of the electorate, not the turnout, but there are issues with that:
– just staying at home is a defacto No vote, which is hardly fair for those who can be bothered to express a view.
– previous votes (2014, 2016) didn’t set such a high bar. It looks like if you are worried about losing you get to set the test higher.
– there would need to be recognition/engagement around the need to have a vote at all, and that constitutional reform might be good (whether indy, voting mechanisms, house-of-lords, monarchy) etc – and MPs of most colours aren’t good at saying there’s anything wrong with the system that put them in power

So, whilst I think it’s daft to make a decision on something so marginal, I can’t conceive any better approach that would be both fair and perceived to be fair.

Presumably, like Brexit, any vote is only advisory anyway. The problem with an advisory referendum is if the govt of the day decide to “ignore it” they seem to be acting in the face of democracy and if they chose to accept it (either way) with a very tight margin they are ignoring a huge section of society – actually that’s why just 7 yrs later we are still discussing Indy, because the 45% didn’t change their views because they lost. The challenge for a govt is to take the outcome of the referendum, accept its general indication and build that into positive momentum that grows the support. The Brexit issue was that a marginal vote in favour of a vague question was used to force through a fairly hard Brexit. We could have met the electorate’s request to leave the EU but stayed in the EEA and customs union and there would likely have been less resentment from the 48%. To some extent the Scot Gov mitigated that risk last time with the White Paper, at least there was “one vision” of what people were voting for.

That’s the challenge that faces a Scottish govt if they win Indy Ref 2 – to go and engage with the people that didn’t vote for it and work out how to make them feel less aggrieved / more comfortable. The thing is – even if 75% of people vote for it – you still have 1 million people who will claim to be being robbed of their national identity.

Don’t worry, they won’t be missing you.

Is that supposed to have any sort of meaning ? Or is it just some random toss because I’ve posted.?

@poly You forgot to bold out the I’ve met part.

The point you keep making is the English voted Tory which is not true, a third didn’t even bother to vote, many others voted against the Torys, a majority is large parts of the UK.

Failing to vote in the current system is effectively a vote for them. But you are right the whole of the UK is being ruled by a party we didn’t vote for, but the rest of the UK seems quite content with that and has little desire for reform.

If Scotland hadn’t been so inward looking and voting SNP the Torys probably wouldn’t be in power.

Probably needing to go back and learn how electoral majorities work. 59 Scottish seats in Westminster. Conservative majority of 80 (including 6 in Scotland at present). IF those 53 seats had been able to form a majority for Labour, they would also have been able to form either a formal or informal coalition.

The real struggle is those who dont want independance and feel another referendum will just damage trade, investment and the economy (like all periods of uncertainty) but who dont support conservative policy or direction either. Labour is just as devisive and really Lib Dem is about the right direction but surely a wasted vote.

My preference would have been for a more devolved – devoMax if you like – option.

Centre voting, swinging more centre-left as I get older.
Swithered over the last indy vote, and would ultimately sill swisher at the last gasp again I think. But more likely.

I’d be a natural LD voter, except they’ve been pretty woeful IMO and their own focus on retaining the union over actual people policies has let them down. And Swinson.. 🙁 Their candidate in an election up here was found to have written a diatribe on twitter (I think) about having to head back up the sheep-she%%ing north, didn’t go down well.

I have the misfortune (on many levels) to have Dross as my MP. Enough said.

The ground work has not been prepared well for independence.

At least in the UK SNP can bash the Westminster to get their way. But if Scotland were to be in EU their voice will fall into deaf ears no matter how aggressive they fight and will be too insignificant to make any impact.

Sturgeon is not going to be there forever and without her own descendant or offspring she cannot comprehend the consequences of her actions. Her actions will only benefits the political elites regardless.

Sorry this really get my goat when people talk like this like the English are unified.

Yep……and it’s not even as simple as that. There are plenty of Scots living in England and plenty of English living in Scotland, so to draw a line across the border and make everyone south of it “them” who are ALL different from “us” is ridiculous.

No one has done that though, have they. Comparison has been made between the voting habits of the those down here, with those up there. And we down here (even though that doesn’t include me, and presumably doesn’t include you) broadly look to be voting for Conservative rule and an anti-foreigner policy direction for the foreseeable future, which harms those north of the border even more so than us south of the border (every business person I know north of the border is utterly dependent on foreign clients and workers).

For those wondering about why Scotland and NI might want a different path this sums it up.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/may/02/complex-identities-of-northern-ireland-being-undermined-says-ex-official

Also I read a comment further up about Scotland not having a say at a bigger (EU) table, the thing is that the politics they are serving at the bigger table are far more palatable than the offerings at the Westminster table so I would more happily go with the flow on EU made decisions (workers rights etc) .

No one has done that though, have they.

Well you just have.

And we down here broadly look to be voting for Conservative rule and an anti-foreigner policy direction

A lot of people did not vote for those things, unfortunately the FPTP system results in disproportionate representation for the Torys, that is not the same as every one down here voting for these things anymore than everyone in Scotland wanting independance because the SNP win elections.

The thing with elections, however poor the process, is the opportunity to change direction later, with things like Brexit and jndependance that opportunity does not exist so the majority in favour should be overwhelming.

A lot of people did not vote for those things, unfortunately the FPTP system results in disproportionate representation for the Torys, that is not the same as every one down here voting for these things anymore than everyone in Scotland wanting independance because the SNP win elections.

Frankly, the power to stop the break up of the Union has (and maybe still is – if you are very quick) in the hands of England! Recognise and reform the political system in Westminster. Sort out the issues linked to the West Lothian question, presumably via some sort of English or regional assembly, House of Lords reform (although they are frequently the sensible bit of the legislature!), proportional representation of some sort and fix the lobbying/sleeze/cronyism stuff and you can deliver the change people want. To quote the 2014 vow, “…as each party works to improve the way we are governed in the UK in the years ahead… …People want to see change. A no vote will deliver faster, safer and better change than separation.”

If the parties have not implemented those promises they only have themselves to blame. If the people who vote for the parties haven’t driven them to make those changes – either they are culpable too or victims of the same problem; perhaps destroying the Union* will provide the impetus for change in England too.

* I actually think this happened the moment NI became a special case, and that was inevitable when the UK voted for Brexit, and the WM parties jumped on the Brexit means Brexit bandwagon without understanding the Good Friday Agreement (Blair and Major both warned before the 2016 referendum of this issue but nobody wants to listen to an ex-prime minister)

@poly You forgot to bold out the I’ve met part.

I didn’t – my point was, unless you socialise only in very odd circles if you actually meet lots of Scots, the chances are that many of them were SNP voters without necessarily being vocal about it. I can think of several people I know who in private, and the security of being amongst others who they know think alike will “admit” to being SNP voters, but presented with a vocal anti-SNP person just sit quietly thinking “****” without feeling the need to tell you to your face. They aren’t members of the party, they aren’t going on marches, they aren’t painting their face, they don’t hate the English, and they certainly aren’t Xenophobic – but they are voters. If you want to understand why roughly half of Scots want to “leave” the “club” (and I’d suggest when something of that magnitude happens everyone in the UK should be trying to understand that) then you need to get beyond the lazy stereotype of SNP voters.

Frankly, the power to stop the break up of the Union has (and maybe still is – if you are very quick) in the hands of England! Recognise and reform the political system in Westminster.

Scottish independance would serve the Tories very well in the long term. Without the SNP, the Tories would have an even bigger majority over Labour. There might be some short term electoral pain for breaking up the Union, but they’ll probably survive that. Labour seem to have given up trying to win elections, so I can’t see them capitalising on the breakup for electoral gain.

The thing with elections, however poor the process, is the opportunity to change direction later, with things like Brexit and jndependance that opportunity does not exist so the majority in favour should be overwhelming.

Look back over the last 70 years. See how much the country has been under Tory rule. From what I can see that is only getting worse, solely because of the English people voting for Tory MPs.
Look at the same voting over the same years for Scotland and Wales and what do you see?

Living in a country where you are ruled by a party which very few people vote for is not great is it. I know what it feels like because I have live in Tory England for most of my 50+ years but I can’t do much about it if I still want to live here. The Scottish and Welsh have a choice to have a government that is closer to their wishes.

Is that supposed to have any sort of meaning ?

Yep, you are exactly the sort of English tory I would be looking to get away from. Your generalisation of all SNP voters proves the point well.

Wish I hadn’t started reading this now as I’m now completely confused what the votes are for – can someone explain what they are for but make it very easy please as clearly I’m not capable of grasping this myself!

I’m aware I have 2 votes, I think 1 is local election and the other is regional – but not quite sure if that is right or what the difference is.

https://ballotbox.scot/scottish-parliament/holyroods-ams-voting-system-explained

DickBarton. The first vote is for your constituency MSP – first past the post straight vote. second is for regional lists – this is used to try to make the parliament proportional. These are allocated according to a complex formula but basically if you get a lot of constituency seats you are unlikely to get many / any list seats

Ok, thanks for link and explanation, will do some reading so my votes aren’t entirely unreasoned.

tjagain
Full Member
the only people who should get a say are the people who have made Scotland their home. Its no one elses business. No expats, no diaspora and yes to those of different nationalities who have made Scotland their home.

Posted 9 hours ago

Is it not like that anyway?
I can’t vote in the UK (and thanks to Brexit neither can I vote in the country I live in).