Who's worse, Cyclists or motorists?

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  • Who's worse, Cyclists or motorists?
  • Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    You look, there is no traffic, you go. (or, let’s say there is no relevant traffic- there may be some turning into exits you won’t be using, or immobilised) I must be missing something here as this isn’t exactly brain surgery…

    Ok but

    1) why is that safer than waiting?
    2) do you do it in a car?

    In London, RLJers are a pretty small minority. You see probably as many of them as you see speeding white vans being driven badly, I reckon.

    What is this ‘name’? Some sort of collective reputation?

    Well, yes. We shouldn’t all be lumped together, but we are. It’s an unfortunate fact that what you do will affect how drivers treat other cyclists. Wrong, but true.

    Mr Woppit
    Member

    Who’s worse, Cyclists or motorists?

    Neither, by a country mile.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    I’m only likely to get myself killed so there’s no moral dilemma…

    5th Elefant, earlier:

    Premier Icon richmtb
    Subscriber

    Motorists

    You’d have to be an idiot to argue otherwise

    So its really no surprise we are already on Page 3

    Mr Woppit
    Member

    You wouldn’t say that if you’d seen an equal amount of stupid, dumb pedal-pushers like I have on my daily commute…

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    I don’t generally jump red lights (except where they don’t actually work for cyclists), but I can understand why some people claim it can be safer in certain circumstances.

    Someone asked for an example of a junction where jumping a red light might be the safer option. Thinking about it I regularly drive through one:

    http://goo.gl/maps/7Mi3x

    Two lanes, becoming three with a right-only-filter at the lights, then immediately becoming three again with a left-only-filter. A nice confusing layout. Usual traffic is a constant stream of buses from the road to the right (bus station) and usually a fair number of HGVs and lorries going straight on or left (industrial area and quayside).

    It’s very rare that I see a cyclist brave/daft enough to ride on this road. But if rode there then I’d be quite tempted to carefully shoot the lights here and get ahead of the traffic, rather than potentially being caught between a bus trying to merge with an HGV when the lights change.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    By ‘shooting’ the lights you mean crossing the line, or going early, yes?

    You presumably don’t mean bombing straight out of the road on the right where the bus is and darting through a gap in the traffic when you’re clearly on red and the crossing traffic is already moving through at speed?

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Exactly that, yeah.

    Depending on traffic, and my position in it, I would consider going through that red light carefully, in order to lessen the potential danger of the merge/cross/pinch point ahead.

    So in that respect I can understand the notion that sometimes RLJing can be a safer option on a bike.

    But obviously that doesn’t apply to sailing through with barely a glance.

    Those people are idiots 😀

    mrmo
    Member

    Simple question about RLJing,

    Why are more women killed by HGVs at lights than men? yet they are a minority?

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/may/21/women-cyclists-most-accidents

    now tell me that obeying the law is always the best thing to do….

    5thElefant
    Member

    5th Elefant, earlier:

    I’m all for promoting Wales but you may be pushing it.

    niceweecod
    Member

    [video]http://youtu.be/ulykRPjzUjQ[/video]

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Good work 😆

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    molgrips – Member

    1) why is that safer than waiting?

    Why is waiting in traffic with cars less safe than controlling your situation and being in safe clear road by yourself? Why is it better not to be caught up in the traffic light GP? Or to get away from the left-hookers and the squeezers-past?

    I know I must seem rude but this is elementary stuff. Do I do it in a car? No, because in a car, none of those risks exist. Bikes are more vulnerable than cars.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Or to get away from the left-hookers and the squeezers-past?

    That’s very easily done and I think more safely done by being at the front of the queue, a few m in front of the first vehicle, in the middle of the appropriate lane. Usually in the ASL in fact, but sometimes ahead of that.

    You really don’t need to actually go through the junction.

    Simple question about RLJing,

    Why are more women killed by HGVs at lights than men?

    The report authors claim that fewer women RLJ and that’s the main reason for these accidents. That’s a huge leap imo.

    Premier Icon D0NK
    Subscriber

    That’s very easily done and I think more safely done by being at the front of the queue, a few m in front of the first vehicle, in the middle of the appropriate lane.

    as we know from previous arguments threads no driver ever gets annoyed by a cyclist taking the lane infront of them. And angry drivers never tailgate or do punishment passes on cyclists. So, for a given value of safe, yeah that’s perfectly safe method

    🙂 @ niceweecod

    mrmo
    Member

    The report authors claim that fewer women RLJ and that’s the main reason for these accidents. That’s a huge leap imo.

    More women are being killed, that is a given, is this a statistical anolnomy? that is repeated year after year. OR maybe there is something about how women ride that is getting them killed? Are they more likely to go up the inside of trucks? are they more likely to ride in the gutter and get caught by overtakers?

    Everyone I hope is aware that the ASL zone and feeder lane matches the blind spots of a truck quite nicely.

    As for your point about crossing the forward most stop line, that is illegal. You have RLJed. £50 on the spot fine, do not pass go. If you happen to have the money you are free to appeal and as evidenced by the CPS withdrawing you may well win, but you still need money to fund a lawyer for you.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    As for your point about crossing the forward most stop line, that is illegal. You have RLJed

    Yes, thanks TJ mrmo. I’ve acknowledged this already.

    My point is that crossing the line and waiting is not as bad as going through the junction. In fact this is something that is sometimes useful for increased visibility. My point is that it is sufficient to improve safety – you don’t need to actually cross the junction on safety grounds.

    As for why more women are killed – I don’t know, but I’m sceptical it’s because they wait at lights to be honest.

    as we know from previous arguments threads no driver ever gets annoyed by a cyclist taking the lane infront of them.

    That’s never happened to me in 25 years of cycling for transport. Not at lights, anyway.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    Everyone I hope is aware that the ASL zone and feeder lane matches the blind spots of a truck quite nicely.

    That’s something that comes with experience, and I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect novice cyclists to know that purpose-built cycling infrastructure places them in more danger…

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    The ASL doesn’t match the blind spot IF you are well in front, and IF you are not going down the inside when the truck starts to move. I only filter down there if I know the lights aren’t going to change say, if they have only just gone red. If there’s any doubt I won’t do it. If there’s not enough room in front I won’t do it either.

    The purpose of moving in front is to be seen, so if you are standing right underneath a truck driver you aren’t being seen.

    This stuff desperately needs to be taught – it’ll save lives.

    mrmo
    Member

    My point is that crossing the line and waiting is not as bad as going through the junction. In fact this is something that is sometimes useful for increased visibility.

    No it is exactly the same thing.

    If you cross the line you have crossed the line.

    That’s something that comes with experience, and I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect novice cyclists to know that purpose-built cycling infrastructure places them in more danger…

    You would expect DESIGNED infrastructure to be safe though????

    If you want new cyclists to obey the law then the infrastructure has to work. If it starts to cause issues people will ignore it.

    I am assuming most on here aren’t novice cyclists and are aware that ASLs CAN be very very dangerous!

    cynic-al
    Member

    Northwind – Member
    molgrips – Member
    1) why is that safer than waiting?

    Why is waiting in traffic with cars less safe than controlling your situation and being in safe clear road by yourself? Why is it better not to be caught up in the traffic light GP? Or to get away from the left-hookers and the squeezers-past?

    I know I must seem rude but this is elementary stuff. Do I do it in a car? No, because in a car, none of those risks exist. Bikes are more vulnerable than cars.

    I just don’t get this. You can make yourself a traffic free zone for a few tens of metres, then it’s just the same as it was.

    mrmo
    Member

    The ASL doesn’t match the blind spot IF you are well in front, and IF you are not going down the inside when the truck starts to move. I only filter down there if I know the lights aren’t going to change say, if they have only just gone red. If there’s any doubt I won’t do it. If there’s not enough room in front I won’t do it either.

    The purpose of moving in front is to be seen, so if you are standing right underneath a truck driver you aren’t being seen.

    This stuff desperately needs to be taught – it’ll save lives.

    To me this is the crucial part, take a driver put them on a bike, you get used to markings making your life easy and safe. IF the markings don’t make it safer then what! Should you really need to teach someone that they really shouldn’t use a lane that exists because SOMETIMES it is probably not safe!

    Does an ASL need to be deeper to ensure visibility, does the feeder lane need to be wider or to not exist at all? Does it need solid lines to in theory prevent cars and trucks encroaching into it.

    Do we need two sets of green lights a bike light and a car light???

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    You would expect DESIGNED infrastructure to be safe though????

    As I said, that’s something that is learnt through experience

    If you want new cyclists to obey the law then the infrastructure has to work. If it starts to cause issues people will ignore it.

    I think that’s what I was saying…

    I am assuming most on here aren’t novice cyclists and are aware that ASLs CAN be very very dangerous!

    Yes, but I suggest we’re a minority.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    I just don’t get this. You can make yourself a traffic free zone for a few tens of metres, then it’s just the same as it was.

    Yeah, but those tens of metres can potentially get you through the junction which is by far the most dangerous point (75% of cycling accidents are at or near a junction).

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    Yeah, but those tens of metres can potentially get you through the junction which is by far the most dangerous point (75% of cycling accidents are at or near a junction).

    They also allow you to take primary, which is particularly useful if you need to turn right a little further up the road.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    My point is that crossing the line and waiting is not as bad as going through the junction

    “Bad” in what sense? You can’t get “more illegal”, it has a pretty binary definition. Less safe? More immoral?

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Less safe, less considerate and more rude.

    And I don’t thing illegality does have a binary definition really. It might in theory but it definitely doesn’t in practice.

    Does an ASL need to be deeper to ensure visibility, does the feeder lane need to be wider or to not exist at all? Does it need solid lines to in theory prevent cars and trucks encroaching into it.

    Do we need two sets of green lights a bike light and a car light???

    There are a fair few junctions that do things like that. The car line is re-drawn further back sometimes, and I am sure I have seen places where there is a cycle lane and little cycle traffic lights to let cyclists out in front of traffic. And there’s definitely a bus one in Cardiff that applies to cyclists too.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    I don’t thing illegality does have a binary definition really

    Well, it kind of is. Something is illegal, or it isn’t; you don’t really get “mostly illegal” (in your best Billy Crystal voice).

    But anyway. I don’t really want to derail this into a semantics argument, I just wasn’t sure what you meant. Thanks for the clarification.

    Premier Icon aracer
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    molgrips wrote:

    more rude.

    Don’t you lot know that you’re supposed to wait your turn in the queue?

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Being polite and courteous is important.

    Premier Icon D0NK
    Subscriber

    Does an ASL need to be deeper to ensure visibility,

    possibly dunno If its doable in most junctions and are drivers really going to wait >2 car lengths away from a junction?

    does the feeder lane need to be wider or to not exist at all?

    hmm maybe

    Does it need solid lines to in theory prevent cars and trucks encroaching into it.

    chuckles. You’re funny. Since the terrible spate of accidents in London a common theme seems to be “give us infrastructure not more paint

    Couple of really dangerous cycle lanes near me, on one the cycle lane swerves off left along with the normally heavy quick moving left turning traffic, it’s a mandatory cycle lane but loads of cars encroach on the left bend, but you’re totally stuffed if you want to go straight on, you know, along the major NCN route.
    here

    Junkyard
    Member

    Being polite and courteous is important.

    Is it **** what a load of bollocks

    IGMC

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    does the feeder lane need to be wider or to not exist at all?

    I think most ASLs would be improved by ditching the feeder lane.

    My understanding is that it is technically illegal to enter the ASL box without using the feeder lane, as it means crossing a stop line. If true then that is a very silly law which should be changed.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    Donk wrote:

    are drivers really going to wait >2 car lengths away from a junction?

    IME more often than not they can’t be bothered waiting behind the current ASL boxes.

    Couple of really dangerous cycle lanes near me, on one the cycle lane swerves off left along with the normally heavy quick moving left turning traffic, it’s a mandatory cycle lane but loads of cars encroach on the left bend, but you’re totally stuffed if you want to go straight on, you know, along the major NCN route.
    here

    Oh that is incredibly shit – looking at this: http://goo.gl/maps/7NbTe it seems the only “legal” way to enter the ASL box to go straight/right is from the left hand side of the left turn lane, and involves making a 90 degree turn to ride across the front of the cars. What’s the betting that if you tried doing that the cars would have encroached on the box so that you couldn’t make it across without bunnyhopping the reservation?

    Premier Icon D0NK
    Subscriber

    it seems the only “legal” way to enter the ASL box to go straight/right is from the left hand side of the left turn lane

    yeah but ignoring the rules it’s still difficult. Unless the lights are on red or you’re lucky with traffic it’s difficult to get across top the right, busy and fast moving as everyone is trying to beat the lights, you could wait in the cycle lane for the lights to turn red but it’s a risk as loads of cars cut the corner. And as for trusting that cars overtaking you that are not indicating are going to be going SA/right, hmm yeah, ok if your life isn’t exciting enough and you like a gamble.

    Oh that is incredibly shit

    yes it really is, as I said part of NCN 6 too. The return leg isn’t much better

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    Donk wrote:

    The return leg isn’t much better

    Gosh, that is also incredibly shit – I’m struggling to work out which is worse! I hadn’t spotted that, so thought you’d be referring to this dog’s dinner http://goo.gl/maps/eo2Vr – which at least has the merits of not being obviously inherently dangerous.

    Premier Icon D0NK
    Subscriber

    I don’t consider that too bad, seems to work in practice, if you’re riding along the DC and want to turn right you don’t have to get across lanes of traffic, crossing over from the NCN is ok ish , pretty lame that the light sequence means you will be stuck on the island tho, they obviously didnt think it would be a good idea to have a phase to get bikes/peds straight across in one go.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Incidentally there are a few junctions in Cardiff where the asl feeder lane is in the middle of the two car lanes, where the left one is left only. Works nicely and makes a point about where cyclists can go.

    cfinnimore
    Member

    Scumbags, all of them. Especially the super idiots who do both.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    pretty lame that the light sequence means you will be stuck on the island tho, they obviously didnt think it would be a good idea to have a phase to get bikes/peds straight across in one go.

    I was assuming that would be the case.

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