But again, I’m just not convinced I’d be expected now to be the time that catching up would be happening.

The problem is if you have been falling further and further behind then now is the time the catch up is needed.
Most people right now will be behind in real terms from 10 years back but if you started falling behind 9 years ago its going to hurt a lot more.

Seems to me it isnt a case of who is, but who isn’t.

And I support one and all. Wages in this country have been too one sided for far too long.

8 days so far since the summer, and a load of us got turfed out of our roles with less than 1 days notice after the first 2 day strike and my fairly regular 36hrs a month of overtime stopped overnight, so a double whammy and have dipped into savings recently.

Unfortunately support for the action is mixed due to the unions mediocre track record over the last few years with an ‘us and them’ workforce split over different contracts/hours, a huge UK office closure program and refusal to allow home working meaning loads of experienced people have left and been replaced by a mix of minimum wage and offshore staff with no experience (roles that traditionally would have filled by experienced field staff with practical knowledge). No longer is my profession considered a job for life 🙁

It sounds like talks have progressed this week so waiting to hear a proposal on Monday hopefully. We haven’t had much mention in the media, we are not as noticeable as Posties and Trains but the work backs up. Frustratingly the company is performing strongly and customer prices rise with inflation each year, but wages do not.

But again, I’m just not convinced I’d be expected now to be the time that catching up would be happening.

Surely after 10 years of austerity now is the time

Urm….. Getting close to current inflation isn’t catching up that doesn’t account for the last many years of derisory pay increases…..

Well, yes – not if it’s closing the gap on where you were (or rather where your role was – you might not have been in it). But I think it does in another way…..hear me out.

Imagine you were a chemistry graduate. You chose to go into teaching rather than into chemical engineering. Over the next ten years your alter ego in chemical engineering got rate of inflation pay increases and you got a bit less. Assume then that in 2022 your alter ego got the national average private sector pay increase which is about 5-6% according to the ONS and the real you got the current rate of inflation (11.1%). Whilst your role has not caught up with where it was in 10 years ago, it would have caught up (some of the difference) with it’s comparator role.

If we are talking teaching this is a good article on the long term decline of teacher pay (sorry if already posted). England centric however – https://ifs.org.uk/articles/long-long-squeeze-teacher-pay. Their summary is that if compared to 2007 an experienced teacher role is now 8% lower in real terms whilst average earnings across the economy had, in 2021, just about recovered to parity in real terms. Less experienced teacher roles are down, but not quite so much.

Depressingly, I jumped ship to the private education sector in 2006. When I jumped the equivalent classroom teacher pay to my nearest maintained school would have be circa £3K higher. In 2022 it’s now on £500 less that the equivalent role in the nearest academy. My working conditions have not dipped so much however (although there was a big round of redundancies to survive the pandemic and rumours of another one around the corner). Once upon a time people move to private schools for the pay, now the only logical reason to do so is conditions (although I write this at 0745 on a Saturday morning with 4 hours of teaching and an evening duty ahead of me).

@poah I’ve got to agree with others. I dislike the need for unions but I joined the one that SLT dislike the most. I’ve seen them work and they did a good job for the individual concerned. Good pension advice too

I wish there was a union for the self employed and minimum rates! Following the trend from the last 3 recessions it’ll be a race to the bottom for trades as the quantity of work dries up.

’09 financial crisis saw cad jockeying around here pretty much vanish as the domestic projects just didn’t happen. My pay went from £200 a day cad jockeying to £65 a day fitting gravestones. Needs must and all that. I worked out that overall it took me for £150k.

Good luck to all, there’s going to be tough times ahead.

@jonesyboy GMB or whatever was once the TGWU would cover that. Whether they are recognised by “employers” is another matter. Good luck.

chemical engineering got rate of inflation pay increases and you got a bit less

Here’s a shock for you, people in the private sector don’t get inflation linked pay rises either. Don’t think I’ve ever had a rise inline with the true cost of living having worked for a range of companies for the past 30 years. Private sector employees don’t have the same inbuilt career progression as many do in the private sector, job security is also worse as are the severance terms. All my pay rises have come from changing jobs and companies.

Please don’t make this a private vs public sector, wage erosion is universal as is constant reorganisation and being expected to deal with new issues every day.

Here’s a shock for you, people in the private sector don’t get inflation linked pay rises either

Here’s another, if you’re a minimum wage type in whichever sector the annual pay rise is at or just under inflation. At some point there’s a chance it’s not going to worth anyone’s while to take a more responsible/technical job as there will be no differentiation between wage levels.

All my pay rises have come from changing jobs and companies.

Yes that’s called the free market.

If I want to get my wages up it’s quite easy for me to move to another company doing a similar job and we negotiate wages usually based on previous job +x%

If your in the public sector there is no negotiation. You change jobs you remain on the same wage .

Please don’t make this a private vs public sector,

But alas it is. Private sector can negotiate their own wage or vote with their feet and the market will be forced.

Private sector and essential services do not have that option.

You change jobs you remain on the same wage .

Not if you take a higher responsibility job which is what I did each time. If you move into the same job it is likely to pay similar money, it’s the free market innit.

Private sector can negotiate their own wage or vote with their feet and the market will be forced.

No, really doesn’t work like that, in fact it’s the opposite. Most private sector isn’t effectively unionised, and if the unions play hard ball the company is likely to fail. There often isnt anymore money in the pot. Public sector can strike with little risk to long term job security (except the rail and postal workers who seem desperate to accelerate the decline in their industries).

Who mentioned union in the private sector ….. In my sector you stand on your own two feet.

Those that are unionised (barring those at the coal face that management seem to believe are replaceable )are effectively ostrisised

Perhaps why it works effectively to manage your own negotiations

There often isnt anymore money in the pot.

For pay-rises, yet there’s plenty for management stock options, bonuses or very large pay awards. Lack of money for those doing the work is normally a choice by senior management.

There often isnt anymore money in the pot.

For pay-rises, yet there’s plenty for management stock options, bonuses or very large pay awards. Lack of money for those doing the work is normally a choice by senior management.

This+++
Those with the power and money are only too happy to see the vast majority squabble over the crumbs, playing one group off against another. How they forever get away with it, is beyond my comprehension.

Public sector suffers the same. Teaching unions in Scotland accepted a lower offer last year in the proviso this year’s would be bigger. Scotgov knew this and could have put more money into the education pot but instead it goes to “embassies” or some other project. Which says all you need to know about priorities (UK gov arguably worse with massive SE infrastructure projects that allow people to get somewhere fractionally quicker). Soctgov more limited in what it can do around raising the shortfall through taxation. As any money raised affects the Barnett formula. So has no real net effect.

If you move into the same job it is likely to pay similar money, it’s the free market innit.

That doesn’t work in the public sector though, many teachers like Science or Maths etc are in huge shortages and yet the wages are not raised to reflect the shortage, recruitment and retention is dire and vacancies are widespread. When I started teaching 15 or so years ago I would go for interviews and be up against half a dozen shortlisted candidates from the however many applied. Now I haven’t seen half a dozen applications for science positions in the last 3 years despite our school advertising and having vacancies, I reckon we are lucky to get one a year.
Nurses are the same job vacancies all over the place, no applications.

Free market suggests a pay rise, government has cut pay massively in real terms over the last ten years…

Here’s a shock for you, people in the private sector don’t get inflation linked pay rises either. Don’t think I’ve ever had a rise inline with the true cost of living having worked for a range of companies for the past 30 years.

And here’s a shock for you too…your anecdotal evidence does not make for a universal truth. Please try to remember this when you try to sound condescending – it’s not a great look. Plenty of people in the private sector get annual incremental pay rises. If we are allowed to be anecdotal my wife has spent an entire career in the private sector in both SMEs and large multinationals across industries as diverse as tourism, the third sector, chemical manufacture, private finance, utilities and a training provider. Plenty of company wide annual salary increases received – sometimes under, sometimes over the current rate of inflation. Then sometimes change of role, promotion or renegotiation on top of that. If you stop taking it personally and what’s happening to you and think of it as the role that receives a salary change, then yes there is often an element of ‘dead man’s shoes’, with the rate of pay attached to the job only being increased when it is vacated and needs filling again. Regardless of if its in some sort of ordered annual review or ad hoc bespoke increases rates of pay do generally go up over time.

wage erosion is universal

It might not feel like it but across the nation the average rate of pay in 2021 had caught back up with the 2007 average with regards to comparisons to inflationary pressures. Being an average, plenty are ahead and plenty below – some of both will be in the public and private sector (although it’s factually incontrovertible that public sector wages were slowed by austerity more than private). But, when looked at over the medium and longer terms, patently wage erosion is not a universal experience suffered by all.

Back to teaching…..the employer pension contribution has gone up massively in recent years. If you do the maths, if you take that increase and the 8% decrease in income in real terms for experienced teacher roles it almost perfectly balances out – the price of the total ‘package’ we receive now is almost exactly the same as it was in 2007 relative to inflation. Question I guess is, does pension contribution both the employer and employee makes feel worh it any more? If the negotiation was, yes have a sizeable pay rise but the pension get knocked right back – would people go for that?

It’s a bit weird at the moment. I am striking. While the missis working for private company has received two pay rises this year, both out of the blue, the most recent in addition had a cost of living payment. The difference between our jobs is night and day. I don’t know wether to laugh or cry.
I know my employer is corrupt and it is becoming more and more difficult to go to work there. It will be getting loud on the picket line this coming week.

Openreach/BT have given 16%, will wait for the details but that’s going to help the younger members

Back to teaching…..the employer pension contribution has gone up massively in recent years

Do you understand why that is ?

Openreach/BT have given 16%, will wait for the details but that’s going to help the younger members

Flat rate so between 6% and 16% including the initial pay rise that was implemented without any union discussions. The most common grades will get around 10%. Lots of hand wringing going on about the latest offer only being equal to the lost strike pay and wanting to vote against it, but conveniently forgetting that it’s all about consolidated pay, it’s not a one-off cost of living payment (which can sound good but is practically worthless compared to a consolidated rise)

BT gave a one off payment I believe?
The staff definitely needed it the pay rise.

Do you understand why that is ?

Undoubtedly better than you sunshine 😉

Undoubtedly better than you sunshine 😉

Thanks for making it clear you have little idea.;) You stay classy.

Thanks for making it clear you have little idea.;) You stay classy.

Well, if you elect to come over condescending…..

(you were involved in the renegationaion too were you?)

Sorry still not clear. Do you know or are you just pricking around.

There is a reason you don’t give a straight answer on this isn’t there.

This government is beyond words. My hate for them has no bounds.

Speaking on Sky News’ Ridge on Sunday, Zahawi insisted it was up to union leaders to call off the strike and suggested they were playing into the Russian president’s agenda as he uses high energy prices fuelling inflation as a “weapon” in his war against Ukraine.

Zahawi said the government needed to show discipline in not raising public sector pay in line with inflation, which could fuel inflation further.

Nadhim Zahawi is said to have an estimated net worth of up to £100million (according to the Express newspaper). Every time one of them is quoted, they should their net worth displayed beside their names.

It’s only been a few months since he was telling us that bankers bonuses can’t be capped at a proportion of their wage… otherwise, without giving staff chance to gain limitless bonuses, how will banks recruit and retain people? What signal did that give Putin? Now, what’s the solution to a staffing crises in nursing… real term pay cuts. 👏🏼

Only just caught up on today’s news.

Linking strikers to Putin. Wow.

Putin must be living this utter shambles of a government though!

Contemptible punch of *****.

Aah, no need to worry, the army will be stepping in to replace striking nurses.

the army will be stepping in to replace striking nurses

interesting how they never include in the glossy adverts “join the army – work as scab labour, undermining essential workers’

Deary me, couldn’t live with myself as a scab. I take it those non-strikers will refuse any pay increase in solidarity with their employers.

Agency worker for Royal Mail – I didn’t get any choice on the matter even though RM have recruited someone else here more recently. If the RM folks say they’re not striking and no post arrives, they still get paid, I get nothing. I’ve lost 12 days pay in the last 2 months. I called today to ask if I could used my accrued holidays to cover the strike days, but apparently I can’t 🤬🤬🤬 There’s no wonder the business is in such a mess.

@BillMC

Deary me, couldn’t live with myself as a scab. I take it those non-strikers will refuse any pay increase in solidarity with their employers.

Today sees a new pay offer to Scottish teachers. All good.

However, our council two weeks ago was asked to propose further savings to fund this increased offer.

My wife has been informed that all peripatetic teaching roles are to be laid off, not redeployed. She is likely out by Easter.

It also includes all the music service, PE, a bunch of Educational Psychologists, a bunch more classroom assistants, some early years staff, a few more education managers/leaders in the council, out of hours care managers, and most of the support for holiday play schemes staff.

Which of course also means the better paid teachers now have no support staff and the children fewer opportunities.

Maybe she should have shown her solidarity and just handed in her notice so others get more money. Along with about 25-30 other colleague who are about to be out of a job. I mean, that’s what the strikers would expect.

Time to see if we can extend the mortgage as we can’t live on one wage..

Unfortunately those cuts were always coming. SBC cut peripatetic staff years ago. All primary pe went. Then they wondered why there were issues with ricct.

Unfortunately those cuts were always coming

No, they’ve been fought for years. Mrs_oab’s team used to be 14. She joined at the cut to 7. Th<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>en it’s been reduced to 2.8fte and they all had to re-apply.</span>

So now the team just will not exist.

Her team of specialist early years teachers support 44 early years settings and more private partners across the council. Tomorrow she helps train 300 staff. The last week she’s been supporting a nursery struggling with some children very challenging behaviour and a very young and inexperienced team. Week before she was ‘in ratio’ for a few days to keep a nursery from closing due to staff shortage and some more training for the seniors who lead nurseries.

There’s also a legal requirement to have access to teachers in early years, but that’s being ignored.

Unfortunately those cuts were always coming.

And this payrise has given the excuse to bring in more.

I’m hoping the same strikers for money become strikers to re-instate those who lost jobs due to the payrise. I mean, that’s solidarity.

‘I’m hoping the same strikers for money become strikers to re-instate those who lost jobs due to the payrise. I mean, that’s solidarity.’

Absolutely! Pay rises must be funded and not arise from divisive redundancies.

Anecdote from around here. Nurses on a picket line at the children’s hospital got abuse from from a dumper truck driver (twice). A picket  photographed the vehicle and sent a note of protest to the firm. Boss grabs driver in the yard, dresses him down and takes him to the picket line to apologise and promise that next time they strike he will personally provide coffee and cake.

‘I’m hoping the same strikers for money become strikers to re-instate those who lost jobs due to the payrise. I mean, that’s solidarity.’

Absolutely! Pay rises must be funded and not arise from divisive redundancies.

Please can you say that to EIS, who despite a ‘no job losses’ policy, are just accepting that mrs_oab and a bunch of colleagues are collateral. She has a meeting with the rep today – the same rep who nominated her as a picket leader, who put her under pressure to ‘stand in solidarity’ and are now saying ‘ah yeah, but not solidarity for you’…. So there is not solidarity here at all. none.

We also are looking at teachers with a shiny new pay rise – and no classroom assistant support. No specialist training or support in some areas. So you will be richer and yet also more stressed and more hours.

As you can tell, I have not slept this weekend as we are looking at a job loss, and I am somewhat cross at the seemingly blithe ‘everyone in this together / solidarity / must strike attitude – yet I know mrs_oab and other job-losers are not going to see their colleagues out on strike for the next few months to ask for jobs to be re-instated.