Scottish NHS strikes are on hold after a new pay offer.

We’ve had possibly our worse year for PGCE student intake I’ve known in 15 years. Folk just no-longer want to do it.

We’ve had possibly our worse year for PGCE student intake I’ve known in 15 years. Folk just no-longer want to do it.

I feel uncomfortable saying this, but the quality of pgce students is not what it was either. It has been diminishing for some time. People needing a lot more support and guidance.
Money has to be found. Staff already working in teaching and the NHS etc, are clearly hugely invested in working there. But, recruiting quality new staff requires decent pay and conditions. Retaining staff who are working under increasingly stressful conditions similarly requires decent pay and conditions. Otherwise people will leave – as they are in ever larger numbers.

We’re really suffering with the ‘Covid’ intakes and those given ‘teacher assessed’ marks – the student’s just aren’t as good, and we are getting more withdrawals. TBH that’s to be expected as it was tough.

This is the bit the unions don’t get.

I disagree, there have been union led attempts to impose a work to rule over workload for a few years now. The problem is that working the contracted hours would end up in a} letting the young folk down b) probably disciplined as who can manage?

there have been union led attempts to impose a work to rule over workload for a few years now.

Which have been dismal failures so wtr clearly isn’t the right lever. Which brings me back to my original point of the unions not getting it.

Which brings me back to my original point of the unions not getting it.

I think the unions do get it but there’s very few options open to them

I think the unions do get it but there’s very few options open to them

Pay is the easy option so they channel their energies into that but when I talk to colleagues they’re mostly more worried about conditions. So I think the teaching unions in Scotland aren’t doing a great job of representing members interests. Would teachers strike over conditions though? I don’t know.

There might be more public support for action on teachers working conditions because improvements to that will also mean improvements to pupil outcomes.

So I think the teaching unions in Scotland aren’t doing a great job of representing members interests. Would teachers strike over conditions though? I don’t know.

You can only improve conditions by increasing school funding, teachers cannot strike over that.

You can only improve conditions by increasing school funding, teachers cannot strike over that.

So they strike for better conditions…. In a freak u turn the unions win. Every school gets funding for 10 new teacher positions.

Nothing changes because it’s still not an attractive career outside of the career teachers such as Mrs t-r for whom it’s a vocation rather than the job……like those above who are going above and beyond the call of duty. But even she voted to strike , the unions unfortunately advised that she should not due to external conditions.

How ever while the hardcore will say teachings not about the money….if you don’t pay you won’t get the tallent. It’s not an attractive career from a working hours perspective nor a stress position nor the money……good will and folk who feel it’s their calling will only go so far. Something has to change or your conditions will get eroded with no way back out

Funnily enough the police are having similar issues right now….

And the press are reporting that police chiefs predict civil.unrest before too long…

You can only improve conditions by increasing school funding, teachers cannot strike over that.

Why not? Plenty of workers have struck over working conditions. Such a strike is about the conditions not funding. Increased funding is just a method by which the improvements to conditions might be achieved.

You can only improve conditions by increasing school funding, teachers cannot strike over that.

Rail, post, NHS, civil service have all voted to strike over pay and conditions, most nurses I know want more staff as much as more money.

Conditions are hard to pin down.
Is behaviour getting worse? But the fix is societal not in school.
Are school buildings run down? Yes but that lack of investment is hard to turn round.
Is there a lack of pgce places? Yes. Huge funding needed. This is needed to bring enough classroom teachers into the profession. Maybe but how do you keep them in?
Staffing, see above.
Workload, see above.
The issues are too hard to pin down with one campaign.
Scottish schools are inclusive, which means no one is excluded and everyone but those with most extreme needs are in mainstream.
How do we deal with behaviour? “All behaviour is communication” bit the kid who’s life is chaotic due to home life is communicating something schools cannot fix. But due to “nurture” and “inclusivity” the child who needs emotional support and help to function as a child instead is dropped into a class to be told about the structure of an atom. Then we wonder why the behaviour is poor, well they haven’t eaten in 72 hours.

Teacher scotland not striking. Need the money.

Government has shafted the economy and inflation is high. Pay rises should follow suit.

That being said the main issue with teaching isn’t the money but the work load. We were promised an extra 90mins of non-contact time and that hasn’t arrived. Far too many trainees going through uni and not enough jobs. Recent job had 90 applicants going for it.

@poah the unions have a hardship fund. Not quite a full days pay but a helpful offset for strike days. I’m lucky enough to not need it but I know others with young families and two striking members who can afford to due to fund.

Far too many trainees going through uni and not enough jobs. Recent job had 90 applicants going for it.

That’s interesting because I think it’s the opposite in the NHS, no where near enough people being trained. Asking people to pay for nursing or teaching qualifications is also rubbish, should be free as long as you do a certain number of years in the public sector.

Pay rises aren’t going to fix the long term contentment of most workers (might make people a bit happier short term). I think employers need to look long and hard at the way work is structured and then when that starts to get sorted a lot of people need to realise working on a decent wage isn’t actually that easy, is stressful to some extent and does require mental agility and the ability to cope with constant change. But first employers need to get themselves sorted.

People also need to realise that many of the lower skilled or less stressful jobs don’t actually generate enough revenue to pay much higher wages, work as a Barista, there’s lots of people who can do that and paying you £20 an hour is going to make the coffee to expensive to buy. It’s not all about the corporations skimming all the profit off the top (although there is a large element of that).

The next big issue biting people is the minimum living wage (which is a good thing), wages at the bottom are rising, the next tier up not so much so the pay differential for a more demanding job is reducing, that isn’t sustainable.

@onehundredthidiot not in a union

@stumpyjon yip far too many doing the PGDE course.

not in a union

Genuine question, why the hell not? Why wouldn’t you be?

People also need to realise that many of the lower skilled or less stressful jobs don’t actually generate enough revenue to pay much higher wages, work as a Barista, there’s lots of people who can do that and paying you £20 an hour is going to make the coffee to expensive to buy.

But when you can earn damn near the same with none of the stress and responsibility then it’s an attractive option.

work as a Barista, there’s lots of people who can do that and paying you £20 an hour is going to make the coffee to expensive to buy

colour me dubious – any way to back up this claim?

Also if you can’t run a company in such a way as to pay your staff a living wage, then don’t run the company.

Have you worked as a barista? It’s a different kind of stress than a corporate job but still damn stressful

@stumpyjon yip far too many doing the PGDE course

Is that a regional thing ? Because up here it’s not like that* Nor are the jobs over subscribed. Infact they struggle to get to interview stage for many posts……

* They keep trying to poach our staff to go do pdge in stem subjects to fill em.

Nope but I’ve worked in similar roles and no the stress doesn’t match many corporate jobs. If it was that difficult fewer people would be able to do it day in, day out and they would have to pay more to attract higher calibre people.

It might be stressful, very few jobs are nirvana, but it’s not the most demanding.

any way to back up this claim?

The first bit is self evident, seen any coffee shops devoid of staff recently? Second bit, got any way to dispute it? Double staff wages and it’s going to put costs up a lot which will knock on what people pay.

@squirrelking because I dislike unions. Was once in one and they did **** all for me when I needed them.

@trail_rat too many students = too many NQTs = not enough perm or even contract work.

@trail_rat too many students = too many NQTs = not enough perm or even contract work

Yes I understood thats what you were saying. I was stating that it doesn’t look like that’s the case up here and thus it must be regional.

@TroutWrestler thanks for sharing that. I think a lot of people don’t realise how difficult the conditions are in schools.

People also need to realise that many of the lower skilled or less stressful jobs don’t actually generate enough revenue to pay much higher wages, work as a Barista, there’s lots of people who can do that and paying you £20 an hour is going to make the coffee to expensive to buy

Leaving aside the debate about the stress/skill needed the question is how much does that Barista need to live on?
People need to realise that a lot of people on benefits are working. Its just they aren’t being paid enough to live.
So who is really benefiting from the taxpayers cash.
The benefit claimant or the company employing them at less than living wage?

Who’s striking this / next week?

No one in the England football side that’s for sure!

because I dislike unions. Was once in one and they did **** all for me when I needed them.

It’s a no brainer being in a union as a teacher. Free financial advice, legal advice and representation if the shit hits the fan, insurance if your car gets tanned in the car park or stuff gets nicked from your room etc etc.

Do remember though that unions work within the framework of employment law and so they won’t always be able to help. I’ve met a few teachers with quite unrealistic expectations of what the union can do and that sets them up for disappointment.

any way to back up this claim?

The first bit is self evident, seen any coffee shops devoid of staff recently? Second bit, got any way to dispute it? Double staff wages and it’s going to put costs up a lot which will knock on what people pay.

Apologies, it was the second bit I was questioning. You could just accept less profit and take satisfaction in whilst receiving less profit, running a business that treats people well. Essentially what dissonance says.

I’ve not read the whole thread so sorry if it has already been discussed……

Leaving aside if the role has been unpaid in the past and it needs some catching up AND conditions so purely focusing on pay.

What would the average STWer, upon receiving an email from their employer stating the company-wide percentage pay rise, say “yep, that’s fair enough”? Would anything below the rate of inflation be a disappointment to you?

Maybe I’m just a sucker, but I don’t think I’d be expecting that. I look at the utility bills they are facing and the potential downturn in custom down the line and just can’t see where a rate of inflation pay rise would come from. I think 5-6% would have me at “fair enough”. I only got 3% in September mind so my expectations are pretty low.

how much does that Barista need to live on?

Not really relevant in a capitalist world, I’d love to build mountain bike trails full time but people won’t pay enough to ride them to allow me to earn enough to live on. It’s hard physical work that also takes some thought but economically it doesn’t pay enough to live on.

Paying working people benefits isn’t the right approach, it’s chasing an impossible goal. We need to be reducing the cost of living, housing, energy and transport, all things that were in the gift of government but instead they have pushed the cost of these things up.

because I dislike unions. Was once in one and they did **** all for me when I needed them

My union didn’t do much for me either. Twice. Or rather the rep didn’t. Useless reps are everywhere, shit happens, it doesn’t mean unions are useless.

I’m still in it and will be until I leave my present job. Then I’ll join another (hopefully a better one but I’ll still be in one regardless).

Who do you think is negotiating for your pay and conditions? Because it’s not wee Annie down at reception.

Have you worked as a barista? It’s a different kind of stress than a corporate job but still damn stressful

Do you go home at night worrying about what your pupils are going home to?
Do you stress over peoples care plans?
Do you feel utterly useless because you’re doing your best for the welfare of others but ineffectual management just shits all over it?

I bet you don’t, as a barista or shelf stacker I bet you walk right out that door with not a **** given.

What would the average STWer, upon receiving an email from their employer stating the company-wide percentage pay rise, say “yep, that’s fair enough”? Would anything below the rate of inflation be a disappointment to you?

I’d say inflation is fair enough. I’ve been lucky enough to mostly get that.

Just to make my point, I work for a big company, one of six you might say. We were offered a deal of cash lump sums plus an 8% rise on salary and flowthroughs. It barely sqeaked through. Like, Brexit was more conclusive levels of squeaking.

If I was a nurse, teacher or any other public servant that’s been paid and treated like shit for god knows how long you’re damn right I’d be on a picket line!

What would the average STWer, upon receiving an email from their employer stating the company-wide percentage pay rise, say “yep, that’s fair enough”? Would anything below the rate of inflation be a disappointment to you?

That would depend on whether you had had below inflation pay rises for the last ten years or not wouldn’t it?

Not really relevant in a capitalist world,

Ermm yes it is. There is a choice of how do are those people who dont have enough to live on, regardless of whether they work, supported.
Currently its done via the benefits system so we support all those companies who are paying less than a living wage.

Sure the government could do more with the things you mention but, spoiler alert, if they did so it wouldnt be a “capitalist world”. It would be a highly interventionist one.

What would the average STWer, upon receiving an email from their employer stating the company-wide percentage pay rise, say “yep, that’s fair enough”? Would anything below the rate of inflation be a disappointment to you?

About half the rate of inflation would do me!

According to the union, salaries at our place have been below inflation every year for 10 or 11 years in a row. I’ve been here 7 years now. Certainly not expecting 11% this year but 2.5% is a bit painful.

as a barista or shelf stacker I bet you walk right out that door with not a **** given

I manage that fairly well in teaching.

That would depend on whether you had had below inflation pay rises for the last ten years or not wouldn’t it?

I guess that’s why I said “Leaving aside if the role has been unpaid in the past and it needs some catching up “. I get your point and I too am in a role that in real terms earns less than a decade ago in real terms. But again, I’m just not convinced I’d be expected now to be the time that catching up would be happening.

I’m just not convinced I’d be expected now to be the time that catching up would be happening.

Urm….. Getting close to current inflation isn’t catching up that doesn’t account for the last many years of derisory pay increases…..

I guess that’s why I said “Leaving aside if the role has been unpaid in the past and it needs some catching up “. I get your point and I too am in a role that in real terms earns less than a decade ago. But again, I’m just not convinced I’d be expected now to be the time that catching up would be happening.

But you can’t really separate the two like that.

If you’ve been at or near inflation for a while, maybe you can handle a 10% real-terms cut this year.

But if you’re already well behind, you’re much less well placed to take such a hit.