A bigger payrise does not solve these problems.

It doesn’t create positions ….

How ever locally at least – they can’t get folk to apply for existing open positions or even fill pgde

Partly because of what you speak of but also largely because of the remuneration for the hours and stress required for that cash.*

So arguably not giving them the pay rise doesn’t improve the alternative view on the situation either

* The powers know this – you just have to look at the latest offer…. Headline rise on probationers……- and you can see who’s been suckered by the headline and hasn’t read the full release

“Not enough money”? You do realise that the Tories are laughing at you?

The evidence is starting to emerge – there will be much, much more – of huge undisclosed financial benefit to Tory Peers from VIP PPE deals. https://t.co/wrOI2FXlPS

— Jo Maugham (@JolyonMaugham) November 23, 2022

Private sector worker bee here, but fully support those striking – roles like teaching are so important for our society as a whole and should be protected and nurtured. If we can’t attract people to those roles then something is wrong and the generations to come will suffer for it.

With that said, I also agree with the comments about where will the money come from? Budgets are being cut left right and centre so if Peter gets a pay rise, Paul might lose his job. Of course it is almost certain that Paul will be in a key (non-managerial) role that will lead to further deterioration in public services.

The department were I work has wasted 3bn on one project alone in the last decade and still owes around 2bn on it. The product was supposed to be delivered 2019 I think, which it hasn’t, and the trials show it’s not fit for purpose.

One of many where money is wasted, I know it is not as straight forward as that but I see money wasted every week, not on heating though!

This is what drives me mad. So much money squandered by mis-management and policy led decision making. Is anybody ever held accountable for this kind of thing? If it was private sector you’d be fired. Our services are being cut, our taxes are going up, rampant inflation is eroding our savings and living standards will drop for the foreseeable future, yet we spunk billions on white elephant projects. It’s going to take our children and grandchildren decades to dig us out of this hole.

Nahh pauls job is vacant cos he left for better pay else where and can’t be filled as the pay offer is so crap. Money can always be found if there is the political will to find it anyway

Money can always be found if there is the political will to find it anyway

Disagree and think that that thinking is partly why we are where we are. Political will to find money generally means borrowing more. We need to be borrowing less and living within our means.

We need to be borrowing less

Do we? Why?

Never read so much crap in all my life. If your not happy with the pay you receive then find another job offering better pay. Plenty of jobs out there, just requires a bit of effort.

Then who will work as a nurse, Teacher, bus driver etc?

I’m unlikely to strike, as like you say I can easily get a job up the road doing the same thing, if I’m unable to negotiate a decent package.
Although if there wasn’t such a high demand for my trade I might think differently.

What does a teacher, nurse or whatever do? Leave the profession? Work in the private sector?
I fully support those that feel the need to strike.
Watching politicians clapping the front line workers during lockdown always made me angry, knowing they’d be the same people voting down pay rises.

Do we? Why?

I don’t want to get into a conversation about how national debt should be considered differently to household debt, I’m aware of your thoughts on this and disagree. I do think a small defecit is OK but I’m violently opposed to the thought that we can just borrow and spend endlessly.

I don’t want to get into a conversation about how national debt should be considered differently to household debt, I’m aware of your thoughts on this and disagree.

That they are different is simply a fact.

Anyway, let’s try and imagine a teacher receiving a £5k pay rise. What do you suppose they do with it?

Budgets are fixed, no additional money for public sector pay rises, I get that. Couldn’t the SNP just shift some funds from their independence war chest over to the public sector? 🙂

As for striking, I fully support it. The teaching profession isn’t what it once was, the things teachers have to deal with these days blows my mind, partly due to failing social services – at least make it financially beneficial for them to stay in the profession.

Another (Scottish) HE person here. I think we’ve had “days of inaction” most of the 25 odd years that I’ve worked here and I can’t recall any of them achieving anything. I could possibly be persuaded to get behind a “proper” strike. Walk out and don’t come back until demands are met type of thing. But currently it just seems to be a small number of staff who volunteer to lose a days pay every now and then to show they are unhappy (and then catch up on most of the work they missed later anyway). Laudable but rather pointless.

I’ve also heard a few colleagues this time make the point that increasing salary probably just means fewer staff so your demand for more money is somebody else’s lost job (and an increased workload). Not sure I agree with it, but it’s definitely a sentiment that is being expressed and may be a result of the university doing a better job of explaining to staff how the finances work.

Finally, post covid, there is a lot more hybrid working. There will be a few staff who will go in to teach today, but I suspect an awful lot will just choose to work from home, making the current action even less effective than all those other ones.

Up in Scotland here, I fully support anyone fighting for better pay and conditions.

Sick to death of train strikes but you know what? That means it’s working. How many people moaning have sent a letter to their MP or MSP to press for a resolution? Precious few I bet.

There is a lot that could be getting done at a national level but just isn’t. This is unacceptable. But as usual it would just be seen as handouts for those too lazy to actually work for a living.

What does a teacher, nurse or whatever do? Leave the profession?

My wife works in ICU. They cannot get, nor retain staff. People are leaving in large numbers to do all sorts. When the pay is so poor, there are increasing numbers of options of other jobs that will pay near enough the same. You may lose the satisfaction of working in an area where you’ve invested years of time and effort, but job satisfaction is not what it was. Staffing levels are such that you cannot do your job to a satisfactory level. Moved from pillar to post to cover lack of staff in other areas. Stress through the roof. Staff unable to use equipment because they do not have the training, but unable to go for training because of a lack of staff.

So, they are leaving to work in M&S, or set themselves up as dog walkers etc!

I for one, do not ask for much, I live a frugal life. I’m not earning millions, then doing adverts for gambling companies or singing for oligarchs etc – which never appears to get a bad press. However, when you have to forgo even seasonal fruit, look twice at a loaf of bread and sit working from home in a room at 12degC something is amiss.

The arguments about rail strikes reducing demand only work if you don’t consider rail travel a public service. If we invested in it properly and took control back then we’d see no end of benefit. As it stands, sure it looks like it’s going to continue to decay and let everyone down.

I do think a small defecit is OK but I’m violently opposed to the thought that we can just borrow and spend endlessly.

12 years in and that’s yet to start working, in fact all the strikes are revealing a country falling apart at the seams. Investment in people and infrastructure pays back in the long-term .

I don’t want to get into a conversation about how national debt should be considered differently to household debt, I’m aware of your thoughts on this and disagree.

I deduce that you have been printing your own money at home. Might want to keep that quiet 🙂

You need to pay people properly for a couple of reasons
1. If you wait for trickle down you’ll be waiting forever as it doesn’t happen. But if you pay people, they spend it. Poor people more so , to be blunt.
2. You have a mixed economy of private and public spending. They’re on a continuum, and both rely on each other. That’s why it’s a filthy bad idea to see the public sector ‘taking my money’. If you don’t pay them, then the service disappears. Ultimately you’ll get rubbish public services, rubbish roads, bad infrastructure and so on and so on.

Then you’ll have crappy productivity and choked growth. Which is where the UK is at. Fixing this is beyond tax cuts and shrinking the state.
BTW, for every public sector waste of money I’ll find you a private sector one.

Anyway, let’s try and imagine a teacher receiving a £5k pay rise. What do you suppose they do with it?

This is a really good point and one that is often overlooked.

Give a payrise to someone on £27k and the vast majority of it will make its way to the likes of British Gas, Tesco, and BP. It goes into the economy. And gets taxed. It’s not as if it all gets squirreled away in the Cayman Islands.

I’m fascinated by this post as striking has never been in my sphere of reality. I’ve only ever had one ‘proper’ job and have done my own thing ever since.

Good luck with the striking, nobody get’s what they want so hope the increase is acceptable.

What @rsl1 said is pretty much spot on. I see a country where the short term political decisions are now coming home to roost, cracks appearing everywhere in every single area (public and private). This country is plainly getting worse…. always money for wars, always money for Westminster, always money for foreign aid etc etc. I do believe that we need to strip UK economics back to the bone and start again. Westminster needs completely reinventing. Teachers and nurses are critical to this country and should be paid a good wage for what they do.

The rail system is an utter joke compared to most of Europe, but that’s where privatisation gets you. I was looking at getting the train home for Christmas… Surrey to Manchester – £180 each way…..i’ll drive.

I’m speaking from the Scottish context where I do think genuinely we’re out of money

At the risk of derailing the thread your government does have the power to raise taxes…

Yes but if I remember correctly the tax raising powers are limited and that does affect the Barnett formula. So increase tax for no impact.
Approx 2/3 of taxes raised in Scotland go to Westminster, so raising tax increases Westminster income, reduces Barnett payment and has no effect on public spending in Scotland AND various public service funding is linked to Westminster spending in those areas

Scotland’s public sector pay-rises should be funded from Westminster same as English ones, (should be). Balls to all this fixed budget nonsense, that’s just a convenient excuse not to pay people properly.

I think public sector pay should come from central gov (holyrood) they are scaled and fixed there’s little sense in the unions negotiating with COSLA and it’s various political party affiliations.
It shouldn’t be too hard to have a spreadsheet with staffing needs/levels and central gov pay on that basis.

My wife works in ICU. They cannot get, nor retain staff.

Mrs Pondo is leaving teaching as we speak – applied online for an admin job outside education this week and, no word of a lie, she’s had 30+ calls from education recruitment agencies who’ve found her CV and are desperate for geography teachers (even though her personal statement says that she’s leaving education).

Mrs Pondo is leaving teaching as we speak – applied online for an admin job outside education this week and, no word of a lie, she’s had 30+ calls from education recruitment agencies who’ve found her CV and are desperate for geography teachers (even though her personal statement says that she’s leaving education).

I wish her well and hope she finds whatever she does next, better for her.

Political will to find money generally means borrowing more. We need to be borrowing less and living within our means.

If you applied that logic to the banking crisis or covid we’d all be foraging for berries and rustling sheep. Providing decent enough wages that our critical public services don’t collapse is just as important as ensuring the banks stay afloat or preventing widespread economic collapse. If we allow public services to collapse many people will die, and the economy will be massively impacted from parents having to stay at home to look after their kids. Longer term the lack of education and training of the younger generation will result in a downward spiral of decay, social division and political upheaval. I think I’d rather we paid people a bit more thanks.

I don’t want to get into a conversation about how national debt should be considered differently to household debt, I’m aware of your thoughts on this and disagree.

Just because you disagree doesn’t mean you’re right. If you want to be wilfully ignorant about how money and govt finances work that’s your look out but don’t expect the rest of us to shup up about it.

I do think a small defecit is OK but I’m violently opposed to the thought that we can just borrow and spend endlessly.

So you’re opposed to the concept of money then? Because that’s all that money is, a never ending cycle between issuing debt and repaying it.

Scotland’s public sector pay-rises should be funded from Westminster same as English ones, (should be).

Yep, as Scotland doesn’t have its own central bank or currency.

What @rsl1 said is pretty much spot on. I see a country where the short term political decisions are now coming home to roost, cracks appearing everywhere in every single area (public and private).

Absolutely this – we need a political party to have the balls to say it how it is, and rack of the need to invest properly in the strategic line term national needs in the short to medium term – funded by rates and borrowing – in order to produce long term benefits.

I took the bus into Edinburgh today and went to the EIS rally at Holyrood. I am not militant, or massively political. I have never taken strike action, or attended a union meeting before, let alone a rally.
I do think the Scottish Government have a fight on their hands as I think they simply do not grasp the strength of feeling of the teaching workforce.
I know that many will think that teachers have it easy, but my response to that is that the truth is you have no idea of the challenges faced. If you think you can consider post pandemic schooling in the 21st century through the lens of you own experiences of schooling at some time in the past, all you are doing is showing how far out of touch with reality you actually are.
The pressures are massive and come from all directions. The expectations are huge and the fingers of blame are already pre-pointes in expectation.
Poverty. Social Media. Unmet pupil AND PARENT Mental Health needs. Interrupted schooling. Digital learning. The apparent collapse of Social Work’s ability (NB. not desire) to be able to respond. Across the board reductions in Local Authority provision, and the corresponding overwhelming demand place on third sector organisations.

In response: we make referrals, wash and iron school uniforms, collect and distribute secondhand non-school clothing, provide toothpaste and toothbrushes as well as soap and sanitary products. We deliver food parcels to sobbing mothers who cannot feed their children. We charge Chromebooks and phones for families without power. We open our PE showers before school so kids can get clean. We provide breakfast.
Not every day, but certainly every week we deal with suicidal ideation and suicide attempts. It is just a matter of time. None of this is actual “teaching”.
Those of you who went to school in the pre-smartphone era have not experienced the impact of the pressure and fallout of 24/7 Social media. It is easy to pin the blame on parents, but they didn’t grow up with it either, and cannot, from experience, give advice to their children.
I have an 11 yo kid who has been on the waiting list for CAMHS for a QUARTER of his life! He still jaunt been seen and is waiting for an assessment for ASD, ADHD Foetal Alcohol Syndrome. He lives in an unfunded care placement with his Gran who is left high and dry and beyond the end of her tether, but heaven forbid he loses her.
School is the one place where (mostly) 1000 kids from across the community attend every day. We relentlessly but sensitively chase up the ones who are missing. We have less than 7 hours each day to deliver all the quality learning that we can, and to try to make sure everything is right for every kid.

I know that many will think that teachers have it easy

Only if you’re on mind altering drugs or full of alcohol! I remember how I was 45 years ago, there’s not enough money or bikes that would induce me to teach!

@TroutWrestler
I knew like pretty much everything else in the UK that schools and staff are under huge pressure but your post still shocked me to be honest.

No way I could cope with what you do, not a chance.

I wish you the best of luck in every conceivable way.

Troutwrestler – what are you going to cut to fund the payrise? Thats the scots government dilemma. their ability to raise taxes will not cover a decent public sector payrise as it is very limited and they have no ability to raise money otherwise.

I am totally sympathetic to the need for the payrise AND an increase in staffing but its jut beyond the ability of the scots government to increase the budget

Trout wrestler has it. That’s an average day for us too.
Add in the pupils who use sexualised language to intimidate younger female teachers. The daily assaults. We’ve had a ruptured spleen cracked ribs and bruised faces from punches to staff.
I was explaining to a south African ex security forces guy turned Preacher about teaching these kids and he handed me a tissue as there were tears running down my face.
Staff are leaving in droves.
I’m still buying stuff for pupils, yogurts in the morning, pens and pencils, tissues and Friday treats. Theres a “character” who smokes out the back door but always has an apple because we spent a year butting heads but everyday I offered him my apple. (Not sure his are legally obtained).
I’m not striking about the money I’m striking about not being treated like a dick by our lord’s and masters.

But I have a pupil from an area in the bottom 5% for poverty who is hopefully going to do medicine at Edinburgh.

Fell free to ignore I’ve had a couple of large wines

I have nowt but admiration for teachers. I have some amongst my friends. all either part time or retired early now because of the pressures

what are you going to cut to fund the payrise?

How about a few DMBInS consultations?
Good money after bad on the Cairngorm funicular.
The community empowerment bill or whatever its called that’s used as a Nimbys charter and sees every attempt to invest in my local area canned after the usual suspects protest against it.

Yes, the government needs money to pay the bills but without money flowing around the economy nobody is going to be better off. More money equals less poverty equals happier society equals less pressure on those who shouldn’t have to be doing others work. It’s not a complete fix but its a start.

Trout and 100th must both work in my school judging by their descriptions. Add in the probationers doing a weekend job to pay their rent and you have a fairly accurate depiction of what Scottish schools are like now. I’m an ex plasterer into teaching late, I did a wee job skimming a room for a friends daughter last week and it was nice to remember what it was like to enjoy work and feel I had accomplished something.

Good luck to those on strike, I am still wrestling with my decision on how to vote

a_a I have never taken industrial action before. I suggested to classes ways they could be productive and a few have tests so they could revise but I set no work as I was withdrawing my labour.

Teaching in Scotland is not paid for holidays although it is spread over the 12months. This was done deliberately to make striking more costly to those taking action both in the pay packet and pension pot. Knowing that we still walked out the that’s how strongly we feel let down. This negotiation for pay should have been settled 6 months ago but COSLA consistently play a game of brinkmanship, looks like the bluff has been called.

I’m not striking about the money

This is the bit the unions don’t get. Most teachers I speak to are more worried about conditions than pay but pay is easier for the unions to target so that’s what they do.