change could be anything. How you determine what is necessary I dunno. But that are some fairly obvious ones to expand democracy in the UK.

I would have thought that the obvious one would be to scale back on elections. Why on earth would you want to “expand democracy” if people aren’t interested in it ?

ernie_lynch – Member
change could be anything. How you determine what is necessary I dunno. But that are some fairly obvious ones to expand democracy in the UK.
I would have thought that the obvious one would be to scale back on elections. Why on earth would you want to “expand democracy” if people aren’t interested in it ?

I don’t believe people aren’t interested in it. They aren’t represented by it. Which is essentially undemocratic. If democracy doesn’t represent the people it’s not democracy. There needs to be more substance than putting an x on a bit of paper.

If democracy doesn’t represent the people it’s not democracy. There needs to be more substance than putting an x on a bit of paper.

Civil war?

Civil war?

eh?

seosamh77

eh?

You asked for substance. If we don’t vote via a piece of paper what do you suggest?

richpips – Member
seosamh77
eh?

You asked for substance. If we don’t vote via a piece of paper what do you suggest?I don’t think you are grasping what I’m on about at all.

I don’t think you are grasping what I’m on about at all.

Feel free to explain. Eh?

I think you’re being obtuse or thick.

S/he is saying there has to be more to the process of governance than the periodic appointment of delegates.

Who’s not voting in the EU election?

Me! 😡

I’m American. 😉

This is why: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-surrey-27509405

I don’t believe people aren’t interested in it.

That’s quite a remarkable claim to make – that people who don’t turn out to vote are actually interested in the electoral process, what’s this belief based on ?

S/he is saying there has to be more to the process of governance than the periodic appointment of delegates.

Well if you read his posts you will see that all he is suggesting is “the periodic appointment of delegates” be done in a different manner to how it’s being done at the present, quote :

Is change the system to proportional representation. Change the system of politics away from parties to be more issues based rather than party idealogy etc, do away with career politicians..

This will still presumably involve marking your ballot paper with an X, and “the periodic appointment of delegates” will be at the very heart of the “process of governance” – he offers nothing else.

The prospect of no government has potential to generate a more dynamic political landscape

I have no idea what this means and it is clearly the case that some folk will vote and no matte rhow few the winners will form a government

It is odd to say the least to claim that refusing to engage with the system will bring about massive change. Its wont they rejoice in your apathy as it lets them get away with doing the shit you dont like and would vote against.
they want you to tut and moan and do F all else.

They aren’t represented by it. Which is essentially undemocratic.

You did not vote so , of course, your voice has not even been heard because it has not been uttered.

that people who don’t turn out to vote are actually interested in the electoral process, what’s this belief based on ?

+1 most of the folk i know who dont vote could not tell you the first thing about politics as they just dont care. They could wax lyrical about celebrities mind and the latest reality tv programme.
For sure some of the chattering classes and Brand fan boys are interested but they are not the norm IMHO

I voted Green for EU, because most of the environmental legislation (much of it successful I think) has come from the EU; and they don’t have to actually run a country.

So I reckon an EU dealing mostly with green issues would work, leaving the economics to the nation states, because the two things are sometimes in conflict.

I dislike UKIP so much I put a big X next to them on my voting slip.

B’stards.

The Roman Party.Ave were standing again so I voted for them/him.

Last stood in 2009 and got 5450 votes.

I see from his twitter that he took out a £7.5k loan in April to fund his standing.

He is a French bus driver from Reading so that must be a big financial burden.

Why did Santander give him the load considering he might not be a good risk and is certain to loose his deposit?

Sick of all the right wing UKIP nutters, so I voted ‘National Socialist Party’ – that’ll learn ’em!

He is a French bus driver from Reading so that must be a big financial burden.

I saw that – hats off to him for giving it a go.

That’s quite a remarkable claim to make – that people who don’t turn out to vote are actually interested in the electoral process, what’s this belief based on ?

It’s precisely the reason why I’m far less likely to vote in a General Election than yesterday’s vote.
It’s exactly because of the “electoral process”.
I wouldn’t miss out on using a PR vote, such as yesterday. They all count. They’re worth using because they can influence the chances of the people I support being elected.
I don’t feel that way about the “first past the post” system.
It’s undemocratic. It promotes Majority government from minority support, and prevents representation of the people.
I can’t see that I’ll be able to support such an undemocratic “electoral process” and, at the moment, feel that the best way to show that is to withhold participation in such a charade.

Junkyard –
You did not vote so , of course, your voice has not even been heard because it has not been uttered.

I do vote. not always, but I do.

ernie_lynch – Member
I don’t believe people aren’t interested in it.
That’s quite a remarkable claim to make – that people who don’t turn out to vote are actually interested in the electoral process, what’s this belief based on ?

Anecodotal more than anything tbh. But I believe it to be true.

That people don’t participate in the system is a failing of the system.

They aren’t represented by it. Which is essentially undemocratic.

You did not vote so , of course, your voice has not even been heard because it has not been uttered.

my voice hasn’t been heard because it’s not being listened to. i’ve already stated above that if spoiled votes where listened to I’d spoil my vote. but there is no difference currently between not voting and spoiling votes.

Junkyard – lazarus
The prospect of no government has potential to generate a more dynamic political landscape

I have no idea what this means and it is clearly the case that some folk will vote and no matte rhow few the winners will form a government

My point is that there should be a threshold for the winners to be able to form a goverment. hence no voters and spoiled voters should be taken into account.

How many people do you hear talking about tactical voting just purely to try and keep someone out? That’s an insane system where any clown can end up with more votes than they should have.

My point is the system needs changed. I think it’s a poor democracy we live under. I’m not saying my ideas are great nor final. I’m just generating discussion.

seosamh77 – Member

My point is that there should be a threshold for the winners to be able to form a goverment. hence no voters and spoiled voters should be taken into account.

It’s an interesting idea that. Certainly gets to one of my bugbears of the current government, elected with a minority but acting like they have a supermajority, with no heed to the fact that most voters didn’t vote for them. Governments are supposed to represent the people not just their voters so if you get in with a minority you should damn well remember that…

But it needs some method of making sure there’s a government, at the end of the day.

I’m not saying my ideas are great nor final

But you’re not really suggesting anything apart from :

change the system to proportional representation. Change the system of politics away from parties to be more issues based rather than party idealogy etc, do away with career politicians

We already have proportional representation for European Parliament elections. And btw two thirds don’t bother voting in them, which is far worst than general elections which don’t have proportional representation.

How are you going to move away from party politics …..by banning political parties ? People like to vote for parties because it’s easy and it saves them the bother of finding out what each individual candidate’s policies are.

And how are you going to stop “career politicians”…….by stopping salaries to MPs and letting only those with plenty of money or backers bother standing ?

People don’t bother voting because they have been very effectively depoliticized, it has nothing to do with proportional representation or career politicians. They’re just not interested in politics.

Ernie. You’re a contrary **** that has no concept of abstract thought. Its very clear you think you are being smart, but really come on, you’re only kidding on one person here. Northwind gets it, you don’t. This isn’t about absolutes or having definite ideas, it’s about developing ideas. So stop trying to counter everything and join in a conversation for once.

So you want me to agree with stuff like that proportional representation would increase voter turnout for EU elections when we already have PR for EU elections ?

Or that we should “change the system of politics” away from parties when it clearly isn’t feasible ? Or that we can simply do away with “career politicians” ?

Well I think you’re talking bollox mate, sorry. If you really want me to agree with you how about you say something sensible that I can agree with ? 🙂

I give you the definition of a bawbag. 😆 ^^ absolutely nothing to contribute bar contrary-ism. I’m not wanting you to agree with any of that. I’m wanting to you give ideas as to how to develop a stagnant democracy.

I’m not wanting you to agree with any of that.

Well you obviously do, otherwise you wouldn’t have accused me of “contrary-ism”.

Would you also like me to agree with your rather remarkable claim that people who don’t bother voting are actually interested in politics, when I am of the opinion that it’s because they are in fact not interested – just to make you happy like ? 🙂

You just can’t help yourself can you. Counter counter counter. Its a very poor debating technique. Try contributing some ideas ffs.

I can’t help myself thinking that proportional representation for EU elections is a silly idea because we already have it ? 🙂

I can’t help myself thinking that people don’t bother voting because they’re not interested in politics ? 🙂

I am reasonably happy with the way the EU elections are conducted, and I participate in them.

You on the other hand are highly critical and refuse to participate in them, and, and this really is the little beauty………you accuse me of being contrarian !

Pardon me for being satisfied when you insist that I shouldn’t be ! 😀

Yer a bawbag.

ernie_lynch – Member

Well I think you’re talking bollox mate, sorry. If you really want me to agree with you how about you say something sensible that I can agree with?

Ernesto, we disagree on a lot of things and probably agree on more things than you realise, but that comment is top bollock.
Chapeau!
We should have a pint sometime.