Apologies if this has been done but I couldn’t see it on front page.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/video-of-bike-vs-black-taxi-crash-sparks-row-over-who-is-at-fault-a3121621.html

I’d say half and half.

I’d say half and half.

+1

taxi – looks like a really late signal & manoeuvre from the taxi (without the “mirror” bit to go with them)

Bit of both but mostly the taxi.

The taxi is red.

50/50,

Taxi didn’t indicate until far too late to be of any use to anyone.

Cyclist undertook through a junction.

If there had been a bike lane, or if the taxi had indicated earlier then it would shift the blame, but it was just two road users doing something stupid.

Unlike the transit pickup that tried to run me off the road this morning (in my car!), some drivers are just idiots. KN Scafolding in Reading, I’m looking at you, you retard. If you’re going to drive like a tool, don’t do it in a company van with an easily recognisable plate (KN 0 5CAF).

I’d say bike was 100% at fault – they were both in the same lane, if the bike wanted to overtake, he should have done so on the drivers side, or simply stayed with the flow of of traffic.

taxi

Taxi didn’t check mirror and indicated late.

Cyclist should have been more aware of his surroundings – he’s in the right, but could possibly have slowed anticipating a move from the taxi at the junction.

But taxi man’s fault, no question.

Bit of both but they dealt with it like adults.

And before it starts… it’s not victim blaming to suggest that undertaking any vehicle approaching a junction is a stupid thing to do.

Nearly ALL the cyclist/traffic incident videos that get posted up in here are a combination of a common driving error compounded by a cyclist forgetting the road is full of common driving idiots. There’s really no point being “right” whilst holed up in traction. I despair of cyclists I see around me in London not riding with their heads, but with their egos. In 20yrs of London cycling I’ve not once had an off or a near miss, but I have often had vehicles pull across me without indicating, pull out without seeing, change lanes without mirrors. And each time I’m ready for it and stay safe.

Undertaking like that at a junction is pretty stupid, especially undertaking a taxi. Looks like he was following the guy in front a bit too blindly.

Neither seemed to be paying much attention to what was going on.

Stoner you are awesome are you Matt?

Oarsum. I think you’ll find.

Yeah very late signal from the taxi and should have been looking for cyclists (maybe he was and found one), but rider could have been more aware, and was probably the reason he dealt with it like he did.

probably the reason he dealt with it like he did.

He knew perfectly well, riding up the inside at a junction and you’re playing a numbers game, and he lost.

Udertaking = Wrong I just don’t understand why so many cyclists do this its gross stupidity.

Taxi clearly didn’t check his mirror before signalling.

taxi doesn’t look like he started to indicate until the cyclist was at, or just past his bumper. So the assumption the cyclist makes is the taxi continues on so underpass is safe. In 99.9% of the time the cyclist is right to do that, sadly this isn’t one of those times. It can be a judgement call when you ride in London traffic. If there was no indication the taxi was going to move forward much or left I would have done the same.

I would not have been where the cyclist was as there was also not much space if the car on the other side moved out and they were putting themselves in a crush zone by a junction

I think its a 50/50 thing as neither should have done what they just did and I am not sure which is the worse but its better to be alive than correct so i wouldn’t have been where the cyclist was and they just learned a valuable and pain free lesson

Oarsum. I think you’ll find.

😆

Udertaking = Wrong I just don’t understand why so many cyclists do this its gross stupidity.

Thing is, “infrastructure” like this sends a pretty clear signal that undertaking is what cyclists should be doing.

Up until very recently it was actually illegal to enter the ASL by any route other than the dashed line next to the kerb!

Signal, manoeuvre, look

Nearly ALL the cyclist/traffic incident videos that get posted up in here are a combination of a common driving error compounded by a cyclist forgetting the road is full of common driving idiots. There’s really no point being “right” whilst holed up in traction. I despair of cyclists I see around me in London not riding with their heads, but with their egos. In 20yrs of London cycling I’ve not once had an off or a near miss, but I have often had vehicles pull across me without indicating, pull out without seeing, change lanes without mirrors. And each time I’m ready for it and stay safe.

This is absolutely spot on. You’ve got to be 100% focussed on what’s going on around you. Looks like the cyclist was probably in a hurry, and didn’t concentrate enough. The taxi driver should have indicated much earlier, so has a very weak argument, but the bottom line is that the taxi is a lot bigger than the bike, and simple common sense dictates that size matters. Might not seem fair, but that’s life.

I always work on the assumption that every single driver out there is a homicidal maniac, and an idiot who shouldn’t be let near a pair of scissors, let alone a motor vehicle, so will probably kill me if given half the chance. It serves me well.

Are we talking criminal or civil fault? Both are academic, I assume, since there are presumably not prosecutions or claims underway, but here goes anyway.

If criminal:

Overtaking on the nearside (“undertaking” is a rather emotionally loaded term which AFAIK is not used in legal terms) is not at all illegal. It may however be used to help justify a charge of careless driving/cycling. I doubt that a cyclist passing a vehicle on the nearside would ever be considered in and of itself to meet the definition of careless cycling. I would think more significant would be the matter of overtaking at a junction, which in this case is a left hand turn and therefore makes nearside passing more ill-advised than normal. Such passing seems more likely to in and of itself constitute carelessness. Could the cyclist be criminally at fault? Arguably so, but that’s a bit of a stretch. It seems vanishingly unlikely that this would be found to constitute careless cycling.

Turning without looking is similarly a potential matter of careless driving in and of itself. Late indication would probably exacerbate it. Could the driver be criminally at fault? Arguably so, and I think there’s a higher likelihood of this manoeuvre constituting careless driving, because the clear lack of observation (and it may be worth noting that the driver had already just been passed by one cyclist so should reasonably have been alert to vehicles on the nearside) seems a little more serious, and because it was more likely that the other party would have been injured. Furthermore, the cyclist had already commenced their manoeuvre when the driver commenced theirs, and I think this is important: I would hope it would be argued that it should be expected of a competent and careful driver to account for already-in-progress actions around them when taking action themselves.

Realistically, you’d be quite unlikely to get a prosecution for either party, I think. But if I was forced to pay for a lawyer to chase one or the other I’d fancy the odds would be shorter with the driver.

If civil:

It seems pretty unlikely to be a straight 100:0 claim. In line with the above, I’d put money on roughly 60:40 responsibility for the driver and cyclist respectively. Maybe 70:30 at a push.

IANAL, obvs.

Mirror signal maneuver from the taxi and don’t undertake, particularly at junctions from the cyclist. Would have to have word with Mr cyclist thought, why would you do that.? In a congested, busy city why would you just no wait knowing the unpredictability of traffic at junctions.

In a congested, busy city why would you just no wait

Because if you’re going to wait all the time in a busy, congested city, you might as well sit in a car with air con and a radio. There’s a balance to be struck.

Whether this was the right balance is a subjective matter, and it’s also one that we can only discuss with the benefit of hindsight via a replayable neuron-free source from a third party viewpoint. When you’re actually riding along with a first-person, real-time view and having to assess multiple things, it’s different.

OK, the cab signalled late but otherwise did nothing wrong.

http://www.driving-test-success.com/basic_left_trn/basic_left_turn.html

Because if you’re going to wait all the time in a busy, congested city, you might as well sit in a car with air con and a radio. There’s a balance to be struck.

As you say in your earlier post, overtaking at a junction can be daft. There’s no reason you cant adjust your risk calculation when just making progress. I ride probably 50:50 “in” traffic, and “through” traffic in London. Every time you try an up that ratio, you’re taking greater risks (may still not be “great” risks, but that’s a personal judgement call)

From the video I’d say the bike.

If we take the European view of strict liability then as far as I am aware the taxi driver is at fault. But then what do I know

The guy with the helmet cam is at fault obviously.
If an ACCIDENT occurs with no helmet cam around to film it, does the internet go on and on about it 6 months later?

The cyclist basicaly did this:

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skON4WCqb1w[/video]

if the bike wanted to overtake, he should have done so on the drivers side,

I took a taxi home from London one night and when we got around to talking about cyclists the taxi driver said that one of the things that annoyed him were cyclists overtaking on the right!

I pointed out that it was the correct way to overtake, although often not a very safe-feeling thing to do in London.

I have also had similar to the the video above as I was passing a taxi on the right, on my way into a right turning feeder lane by London Bridge, when the taxi decided to suddenly do a U-turn from near-stationary.

I slid up the side of the taxi and he was shocked as I appeared beside him as his right window was open. He apologised…

@iolo he signalled late and then didn’t use his mirror or check his blind spot. That’s a major in a driving test, I’m pretty sure. Mirrors + blind spots before EVERY manoeuvre, EVERY acceleration/deceleration. My instructor drilled this the F in to me.

There is a solution to all of this. Mandatory re-testing every five years, and much stricter driving examinations that drill deeply into driving defensively. Driving is a privilege on such a small, insanely overpopulated island as ours.

OK, the cab signalled late but otherwise did nothing wrong.

Hm. Rule 161?

Anyway, having taken a look back through the HC, one of the rules I had in mind actually applies to a different context, and there are a couple which more clearly advise against overtaking or nearside overtaking in certain scenarios.

On which basis:
– I wouldn’t be confident the driver is more likely criminally culpable than the cyclist; but I still think neither could be successfully prosecuted given the lack of significant consequences
– I still think a potentially significant factor is that the driver’s manoeuvre appeared (AFAICT) to commence with the cyclist already alongside
– I’d guess a civil claim would be 50:50

Personally I consider a lack of observation of others on the road, and then driving into their path, to be a more significant error than riding a pushbike alongside a metal box at a slightly daft location, especially given the entirely unilateral risk, but I’m not the law, obvs 😉

As you say in your earlier post, overtaking at a junction can be daft. There’s no reason you cant adjust your risk calculation when just making progress. I ride probably 50:50 “in” traffic, and “through” traffic in London. Every time you try an up that ratio, you’re taking greater risks (may still not be “great” risks, but that’s a personal judgement call)

Personally I’m pretty cautious and I also tend to have the philosophy that in any passing manoeuvre it should be the person doing the passing who has the greater responsibility, but I do know that when I’ve regularly ridden in heavy congestion it’s natural to adjust one’s assessment in favour of making progress. It’s one of the reasons I don’t ride in London: for the rate of progress I can make on a bike without feeling like I’m at high risk, I might as well walk.

Cyclist was an idiot. But like any crash there is always something that all parties can do to lessen the chances of an impact. Driver should have known that the cyclist was there.

Cyclist needs to learn a bit of life preservation.

Anyway, the point I forgot to mention was this:

Who’s at fault? The local highway authority, for their crap infrastructure.

did they shake hands at the end? Am disappointed…

I was hoping for fistycuffs