Who (TF) decides what to teach Kids?

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  • Who (TF) decides what to teach Kids?
  • Premier Icon molgrips
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    Splitting hairs but perhaps not “Christianity” but children come away with the impression that there is a god (fact), not “there probably isn’t but some people choose to believe in one and we can’t really prove it either way.”

    RE shouldn’t be discussing the existence of God, that’s absurd.

    In our school (30 years ago) it was ‘this is what Jews do, this is what Muslims do’ etc and entirely neutral.

    A good cheesecake these days is hard to find. An esoteric one harder still.

    You need to bare in mind the amount of time they have to teach the kids

    Ms Kucinska was bare in my mind, for the amount of time she had to teach us kids.

    I think I can beat that OP…

    Next week, daughter number one will be making…… wait for it……. hot chocolate!

    Yes that’s right, hot water with cocoa powder mixed in and squirty crème on top. I shit you not.

    Premier Icon DezB
    Subscriber

    what else are you supposed to use

    Dunno, but it must’ve been a damn quick lesson. Mix, chuck in fridge. Consume in it’s glorious smooth cheesy velnetyness. And only a quid!

    avdave2
    Member

    I have fond memories of eating doctored cheesecake while watching Eraserhead.

    Premier Icon nwmlarge
    Subscriber

    Think about it from a ratings perspective and also a low cost ingredients list.

    Imaging they came home asking for Persian Saffron or chateaubriand.

    In terms of ratings, shit cookery lessons won’t get you a bad score on an Offsted report, they channel their efforts into visible results from the core subjects.

    stevextc
    Member

    molgrips

    RE shouldn’t be discussing the existence of God, that’s absurd.

    It’s hardly absurd, it’s fundamental…. at least establishing there is no proof and some people chose to believe.

    In our school (30 years ago) it was ‘this is what Jews do, this is what Muslims do’ etc and entirely neutral.

    Well 45 years ago we had what sounds similar but the point I’m making is it starts off with some bias that god exists and these are different ways rather than starting off from quite purely this is what XXX do/believe…

    I guess what I mean is the assumption that “normal people believe in god”…. plants a very strong suggestion in impressionable kids.

    Mrs Rider (being of overpond persuasion) made killer NY cheesecakes around family birthday times and when it kicked off the kitchen was off bounds for a good amount of time and she’d get stressed about it going right. All I remember about the process was buying many packs of Philadelphia cream cheese.

    OP, maybe have a go at cooking one?
    It might impress the kidz, make new friends and influence people (‘s waistlines)?

    Here: (She says ‘water bath is the best way to go’)

    Classic New York Cheesecake Recipe

    Crust:

    150 g (about 1.5 cups) digestive biscuit crumbs (pulse in a food processor or blender until finely ground, then measure)
    1/4 cup (1/2 stick/55g) unsalted butter, melted

    Filling:
    2 pounds (900 g) full-fat cream cheese, room temperature
    1 cup (200 g/7 oz.) granulated sugar
    4 large eggs , room temperature
    1/2 cup (120 ml) heavy cream
    1 and 1/2 teaspoons pure vanilla extract
    Grated lemon zest from 1 lemon , optional

    Topping (optional):
    1 cup (240ml) sour cream
    1/4 cup (30g/1 oz.) powdered sugar
    1/2 teaspoon pure vanilla extract

    Instructions
    Preheat oven to 350°F/180°C.

    In a medium bowl, stir crumbs and melted butter together until combined and moistened. Put mixture in a 9-inch springform pan and press with your fingers (or use the bottom of a glass) to form an even layer of crumbs. Bake for 8-10 minutes, until golden brown. Allow to cool completely on a wire rack. Meanwhile, prepare the filling.

    In a mixer fitted with the paddle attachment, beat cream cheese on medium-low speed until smooth and lump-free, about 1-2 minutes. Add sugar and beat until blended. Scrape down the sides and bottom of the bowl as necessary. Beat in eggs, one at a time, until fully combined. Add cream, vanilla extract, and lemon zest and beat just until combined and smooth. Pour batter over cooled crust and spread evenly.

    If baking in a water bath: After baking the crust, reduce oven temperature to 325°F/160°C. Wrap the bottom and sides of the pan with one large piece of foil, then repeat with another piece.

    This will ensure that water from the bath doesn’t seep into the cake. Place the pan inside a large roasting pan, then pour enough boiling water into the roasting pan to come halfway up the sides. Place gently in the oven and bake for 60-70 minutes or until the sides are set but the center is still slightly wobbly.

    If not baking in a water bath: After baking the crust, increase oven to 425°F/220°C. Bake cake for 10 minutes, then lower temperature to 225°F/110°C and continue baking for about an hour, or until the sides are set but the center is still slightly wobbly.

    Allow cake to sit at room temperature for 15 minutes, then prepare the topping by whisking together sour cream, powdered sugar, and vanilla extract until smooth, and pour it over the warm cake. Let cool completely to room temperature, then refrigerate for at least 4 hours, preferably more, until completely set. Top with berries if desired.
    Cover cheesecake with plastic wrap and keep in the refrigerator for up to 5 days.

    Baking terrifies me, so I stick to cooking

    Premier Icon DezB
    Subscriber

    ^^ Ruined by red blobs!

    hols2
    Member

    Cheesecake is delicious and simple to make. Perfect recipe to introduce kids to cooking.

    Picture the scene…… the teacher has been charged with working out what phrases/words will be of most value to the kids. What will inspire them and give them that head start speaking to foreigners and help them decide to continue to try to learn a foreign language despite the fact that the rest of the world generally speaks such good English. What can he do to make it all worthwhile….

    a restaurant…. a cycling trips….. buying something in a shop….. meeting a lovely lady…

    No, he looks around his classroom, and sees a rubber, a pencil case, a ruler…

    What sort of raving **** imbecile decides that these are useful words for a kid to learn for everyday life…..

    I assume you’ve never been to countries where most people don’t speak English (i.e. most countries in the world).

    As far as learning vocabulary goes, it makes sense to start with concrete, familiar things. Kids spend a huge proportion of their waking hours in a classroom, so classroom language fits the bill perfectly – it’s the most authentic language you can possibly select for kids to learn. Learning a second language is extremely frustrating because things that seem really simple in your native language turn out to be very complex when you try to do them in another language. It’s kind of like learning to ride a unicycle. It’s obviously possible because some people can do it, but the vast majority of people don’t have the persistence to stick at it long enough to actually become functional. Why bother when it’s much easier to just ride a normal bike (or walk, for that matter)? Same goes for learning anything difficult like a second language – unless you actually live in a country that speaks it, it’s much easier to just do stuff in your native language. Why would two English speaking kids want to talk to each other in Spanish when it’s so easy to just use English? It doesn’t really matter what vocabulary the teacher tries to teach, it will always be much easier in English, so most kids are not going to want to be bothered trying to do it in Spanish.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    In our school (30 years ago) it was ‘this is what Jews do, this is what Muslims do’ etc and entirely neutral.

    We’ve been here before. Different schools, indeed different teachers, have different approaches. It was true when you and I were at school and it’s probably still true today. Holding up your single anecdotal experience as proof of anything is less scientifically representative than statistics in a L’Oreal advert.

    I remember one of the first things our RE teacher ever told us: “Jesus was who he said he was, or he was the greatest con artist who ever lived.” No space there for “… or a myth that a lot of people think is true.” We were basically taught bible studies, no other religion ever got a mention.

    OP specifically mentioned cheesecake and falafel and his kids lack of knowledge of them

    Not quite. I didn’t reference my kids’ lack of knowledge of them, but kids in general. My kids eat falafel quite often and have been presented with cheesecake of myriad occasions(albeit the nicer German version)

    My point was that in general kids wouldn’t get as inspired by cheesecake or falafel as they would by other food. And I still believe that.

    I assume you’ve never been to countries where most people don’t speak English (i.e. most countries in the world).

    You’d be completely wrong. I spent the first three years of my life in Istanbul and apparently spoke the lingo reasonably well. When I went back to Turkey kayaking about fifteen years ago I relearned the basics again and could order food and drink, arrange a taxi to pick me up the next day, ask where the rapids were etc etc. I could ask prices in the airport and understand the answer. My Turkish was pretty abysmal, but I wasn’t bothered as i knew there were 4 other languages that I could speak better.

    When I went to Tzchech I learned the basics to order food and drink ( though I still can’t work out how to spell the blasted country in English)

    I speak enough German and French to be able to translate climbing and kayak guidebook descriptions from French into German.

    My kids speak fluent German.

    They are both happy to make an attempt to order stuff in Italian or French as the need goes.

    The wife won a prize for her PhD thesis which she wrote in a foreign language.

    Last month in Wales, in the Italian restaurant, the waiter was chatting to my wife in German. I asked for the bill in Italian. When he replied in English saying he was Turkish , I switched to Turkish and asked how much the food was, much to his surprise.

    I love speaking foreign languages. Really love it and am so proud when my kids run off with other kids speaking their language to the best of their abilities.

    I’m not worried about my kids. It’s kids in general that I’m thinking of.

    It doesn’t really matter what vocabulary the teacher tries to teach

    Yes it does. It matters immensely. Think of the various scenarios you might be in where you want to speak foreign…..
    Do pencil case, ruler, rubber feature in them?

    Are kids remotely interested in stationery?
    No. It’s just someone being lazy and seeing the first thing in front of them in the classroom and using that

    hols2
    Member

    Think of the various scenarios you might be in where you want to speak foreign…..
    Do pencil case, ruler, rubber feature in them?

    For a child living in a foreign country, those things would be essential everyday vocabulary because they would have to attend school and those things are essential classroom things. They may not be very common in adult corpora, but if you hung a recorder around the neck of a 10 year-old child and transcribed a month’s worth of their language exposure, I think you’d find a lot of instances of “pencil case”, “ruler”, “rubber”, etc. So what you’re saying is that you think kids should be taught the language that adults need, not the language that kids need. I don’t see how that makes sense.

    I’m more worried about how Waldorf Steiner schools are allowed to exist in the UK. They get state funding in England and there are 2 private ones in Scotland, albeit the one in Forres is struggling for cash and the Scottish government declined them any funding (quite rightly IMHO). How this spiritual claptrap is dressed up as being holistic and beneficial for the child when they advocate against vaccinations and children can leave school without qualifications is a mystery to me. Quite possibly the state education system isn’t perfect but at least it’s not based on the spiritual beliefs of a racist Austrian occultist/clairvoyant from the 1920’s.

    Humanists vs Steiner

    I’m sure a knowledgeable educationalist will be along shortly to correct the flaws in my thinking.

    To follow up on the “what is interesting vocabulary for kids thing”, we’re sitting in a service station on our way back from the Alps last year. The kids want more chips.

    “Yes you can have more chips as long as you go up and order them politely”
    “No problem, Ich kann ein besuchen Deutsch”
    ” Ah but we’re not in Germany any more, we’re in Belgium”
    ” Ok , so how do I ask for chips in Belgish?”
    No idea how to speak Walloonish so i tell him the French version.
    Of they go together. Speak French or no more chips.

    That’s incentive for them. They can see the benefit and purpose, so they make the effort.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    Are kids remotely interested in stationery?

    I don’t know after all it gets you to fly around the world in questionable footwear.

    No. It’s just someone being lazy and seeing the first thing in front of them in the classroom and using that

    Or it’s your kids being lazy and not learning any more words.

    hols2
    Member

    The kids want more chips.

    Classrooms don’t generally have chips, but they do have pencils, pencil-cases, books, etc. It’s very authentic classroom language to ask for a pencil. Do you seriously think there’s a curriculum problem because kids are learning high-frequency vocabulary that occurs in every classroom?

    Premier Icon supersessions9-2
    Subscriber

    Teachers at my kids school taught my kids that Edison invented the lightbulb. I almost exploded with indignation and had to correct them immediately.

    😉

    hols2
    Member

    Did they teach how to use apostrophes?

    Ro5ey
    Member

    My 11 year old daughter bought home some delicious scones from school the other day. There were so good I emailed* the Food & Nut teacher to thank her, on the basis Im not sure my lass has even butterd a slice of toast before.

    *(imagine that!! Being contactable via email from parents…. )

    For a child living in a foreign country, those things would be essential everyday vocabulary

    True, and yet completely irrelevant to the scenario we’re talking about here. What percentage of the kids in my son’s Spanish class live in Spain or might be living in Spain soon? It’s a completely useless use case. Kids very rarely learn a foreign language because they are about to move there. The far far more likely use case is that they’re going to visit Spain on holiday. How many times will they need a pencil case and a ruler on that scenario

    They may not be very common in adult corpora, but if you hung a recorder around the neck of a 10 year-old child and transcribed a month’s worth of their language exposure, I think you’d find a lot of instances of “pencil case”, “ruler”, “rubber”, etc.

    No. As above.

    what you’re saying is that you think kids should be taught the language that adults need, not the language that kids need. I don’t see how that makes sense.

    No I’m not. I’m saying that they should be taught language that is relevant to their needs and of interest to them. Stationery is neither of those things

    Do you seriously think there’s a curriculum problem because kids are learning high-frequency vocabulary that occurs in every classroom?

    Yes, because they should be getting taught language that is of most use to them in real life scenarios.

    Premier Icon supersessions9-2
    Subscriber

    Did they teach how to use apostrophes?

    My kids are far better at grammar than I am. But then they are being taught it to ridiculous and over the top levels.

    stevextc
    Member

    Yes, because they should be getting taught language that is of most use to them in real life scenarios.

    Or simply hold’s their interest longer than 10s

    We are a terrible example (embarrassing)… OH is a language teacher, English is her 3rd language (and she can manage in Spanish and get by in French after Polish/Russian and English) but most non linguists would struggle to know she wasn’t born here. I can (could) speak French at AF 4.5/5, struggle through enough Spanish, Italian, Russian, Greek (demotic) and Arabic (North African) and Bokmal/Nynorsk to get by (and can read Danish well enough just not understand it spoken) yet our kid can’t speak enough of any language to get by including Polish his mother’s mother tongue.

    He does speak very fluent bike though….

    Premier Icon Drac
    Subscriber

    How quintessential British “I can get by abroad as long as I know how to ask for chips.”

    johndoh
    Member

    How quintessential British “I can get by abroad as long as I know how to ask for chips.”

    I assume that sort of person just says (loudly and in an approximately foreign accent) ‘CAN. I. HAVE. CHIPS. POR FAVOR.’

    poly
    Member

    I think I can beat that OP…

    Next week, daughter number one will be making…… wait for it……. hot chocolate!

    Yes that’s right, hot water with cocoa powder mixed in and squirty crème on top. I shit you not.

    And one of the first posts highlights exactly why that is a realistic first lesson. What would you suggest they should cook? 30 years ago we made a sandwich!

    Picture the scene…… the teacher has been charged with working out what phrases/words will be of most value to the kids. What will inspire them and give them that head start speaking to foreigners and help them decide to continue to try to learn a foreign language despite the fact that the rest of the world generally speaks such good English. What can he do to make it all worthwhile….

    a restaurant…. a cycling trips….. buying something in a shop….. meeting a lovely lady…

    No, he looks around his classroom, and sees a rubber, a pencil case, a ruler…

    I’m not expert in learning foreign languages, but I suspect the thing they are trying to do is immersion. If you learn the structure and grammar the vocab can easily follow. Afterall “I have broken my pencil, can I borrow a sharpener?” isn’t really that different to “I have broken my bicycle, can I borrow a spanner?”. Did you learn english by talking about fantasy bike trips with beer and nice women – or just naming the objects in front of you?

    precutduck
    Member

    True, and yet completely irrelevant to the scenario we’re talking about here. What percentage of the kids in my son’s Spanish class live in Spain or might be living in Spain soon? It’s a completely useless use case. Kids very rarely learn a foreign language because they are about to move there. The far far more likely use case is that they’re going to visit Spain on holiday. How many times will they need a pencil case and a ruler on that scenario

    Exactly, teach a kid about what’s in their pencil case. They then go on holiday, and it’s all useless in reality. They then give up learning the language at school.
    Or.. teach a kid relevant stuff, e.g. how to read a menu and converse with people in a real situation. They enjoy using the language, and see how direct the application is from classroom to real world. This inspires them to continue with it.

    No, he looks around his classroom, and sees a rubber, a pencil case, a ruler…

    What sort of raving **** imbecile decides that these are useful words for a kid to learn for everyday life…..

    Isn’t the point of teaching languages all about grammar – how to decline your nouns and conjugate your verbs. The sort of thin English speakers like me are generally shit at?

    Vocabulary’s the relatively easy part. If you can ask for one pencil case, or two pencil cases correctly in Spanish, asking for one beer or two beers doesn’t need teaching.

    gauss1777
    Member

    Last month in Wales, in the Italian restaurant, the waiter was chatting to my wife in German. I asked for the bill in Italian. When he replied in English saying he was Turkish , I switched to Turkish and asked how much the food was, much to his surprise.

    That’s all very clever, (well not proper clever but even my English is too poor to think of a better word), but why didn’t you ask in Welsh as you were in Wales?

    Premier Icon funkmasterp
    Subscriber

    das ist meine bleistift Is the only German I can remember. As luck would have it I was in Berlin sketching a river scene when a vagabond stole my HB3. Who’s learned useless language now?

    I only had one cookery lesson. It was a taster (pun intended) and we were shown how to make a full English. That one lesson stood me in good stead and I impressed a lot of my sleepover mates with a good hot brekkers in the morning. Mind you; I was 26…

    I am reliably informed by my associates I’ve there that in isn’t cheesecake if if isn’t a grahm cracker base. And if definitely isn’t Noo Yark cheesecake.

    Maybe send your kid there to learn to make it properly. While he is there he can learn more Spanish than you’ve dreamed of, including a lot of words you’d rather he didn’t. Since they are in Espanol you’ll never know, though

    With all the effort going into raising attainment in schools, I do wonder why secondary schools resolutely stick to such arbitrary time periods for lessons.

    It makes time tabling easier and when timetabling is easier less teachers are needed so costs are saved.

    I do wonder why secondary schools resolutely stick to such arbitrary time periods for lessons

    Because how else would you do it?
    Imagine a work place where you are having a meeting to discuss the printers (or N5 Chemistry unit2 topic3). But there’s no start time or end time. How would that meeting go?

    Felafosophically speaking Cheesus died an was risen again so we could confect our sins. His existence doesn’t knead to be proven.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    What sort of raving **** imbecile decides that these are useful words for a kid to learn for everyday life

    What sort of imbecile? I’d expect language teaching experts. I mean, let’s just imagine for a minute that a load of research has been done, and they have discovered that teaching language structure and grammar, and gaining familiarity through common objects that are actually present is more effective than abstract things that aren’t?

    Maybe, just maybe, they think that teaching about the language is more important than just learning a shitload of phrases? Maybe, just maybe, you don’t actually know that much about language teaching to kids who find it hard, because you’re so gifted and amazing?

    To follow up on the “what is interesting vocabulary for kids thing”, we’re sitting in a service station on our way back from the Alps last year. The kids want more chips.

    So – teaching kids about things that are in their immediate environment and they are interacting with is actually an effective technique after all? How interesting.

    It’s hardly absurd, it’s fundamental…. at least establishing there is no proof and some people chose to believe.

    You really mean the official curriculum is actively teaching kids it is OK and perfectly acceptable for people to believe in something that has no proof and that proof of something or evidence is not important and that faith and belief trumps evidence? no wonder why there are climate change deniers amongst us. In that case it is totally absurd and not at all fundamental and a gross abuse of the power that teachers have in the influence over their kids. If, as part of the official school curriculum, it was being taught that it was perfectly acceptable for people to believe in Santa Clause, garden fairies, the tooth fairy, the boogey man, unicorns and any other completely man made fantasy, then I’m sure there would be outrage. But as it’s a form of made up entity that some adults believe in then it is different and acceptable? Sorry. It’s not acceptable. Or fundamental. That is where flat earthers, anti-vexers and other forms of BS spouting people get their ‘credibility’ from which ultiamelty leads to people making silly decisions that, in some cases causes great harm because of their ‘belief’ or ‘faith’on some made up fantasy that offers no proof or evidence. It’s bonkers.

    In fairness to the teachers i’m sure that is not what they signed up for, but might ben unwittingly party to. Belief in BS of any form never leads to any good. The current state of politics should be proof of that. We somehow have lost all our common sense, stopped believing in truth and following fantasy.

    Kids are unbelievably influenced by what their teaches tell them. I’ve spent many an hour unlearning something a teacher has taught my kids that I don’t agree with or thing should be taught by school – not the traditional subjects but some form of nonsense. One example is that my daughter developed bleeding sores on her hands and wrists as a result of teachers putting the fear of god up them that whatever they touch is dirty and covered in lethal bacteria and they need to wash their hands after touching anything….took me months and many pounds in purchasing E45 to wean her off an almost OCD obsession of washing her hands every 5 minuets or so as she was sh1t scared she was going to die of some form of poisoning or bacterial infection that would kill her. A complaint to the school simply returned a fob off comment about curriculum and the importance of hygiene.

    I realise it’s probably some do-gooding politician desperate to win votes within some demographic in their constituency or further their career who’s driving the contents of the curriculum and not the teachers themselves. By all means, teach my kids maths, science, geography, English, languages etc. but leave it at that. they’re not some form of social engineering experiment. If it is really true that teachers’ resources and time are so stretched as we’re all led to believe then all the more reason to focus on the fundamentals and leave the voodoo to parents – but maybe that is the elephant in the room.

    LOL!!!!!

    This is brilliant! Blaming the teacher for his kids rubbish cheesecake!

    FFS…… Your KIDS made it……. NOT the teacher…… They would have been given a recipe and given clear guidance about how to produce a cheesecake. Learning objectives written on the board, all instructions telegraphed to each and every student in the class in 6ft letters on the board, oral instructions backing up all major learning points, detailed flow chart copied into workbooks and all students told what to do and when to do it. Both oral and written feedback given before, DURING and after the lesson and STILL, YES STILL that bloody poor teacher will have had dunderheads waiting until the end of the lesson to say “Sir, what are we doing today?”

    ALWAYS the teachers fault innit?

    PPS…… Sounds like their pretty crap a falafels as well!

    Personally, I’d probably start of with white bread toast for your kids……. Have they worked out how to turn the dial from “light” to “dark” yet?

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