Waterproof ones then?

Your wife did a wonderful thing in even trying to help.
I’ve unfortunately had to do it, and was unsuccessful.

I’ve seen people collapse and everyone around them just stand and gawp.

Really heartwarming (if you’ll pardon the pun) stuff in this thread.

My younger brother died in May last year of heart failure. He keeled over whilst out cycling on his own in Macclesfield. Bypassers helped within a couple of minutes (including by chance, a nurse who lived in the house opposite). CPR was administed by the nurse and an ambluance arrived within 5 minutes. He was pronounced dead shortly afterwards at Macc General. We were told that even if it had occured in hospital his chances of resus, even with a defib were so slim that his death probably couldn’t have been prevented.

I applaud anybody who helps in situations like those that have been described in this thread. I’m not sufre I would have the presence of mind in the same situation.

Andy

Yes, a few weeks after completing first aid training. For 20 minutes, bloody hard work. Got her back but she died the next day after being transferred to a specialist hospital.

Anyone who reads this thread and comes away thinking it’s ‘not worth me bothering then’ please remember that however slim the chance you might just save a life.

As already said, these days the ambulance control will talk you through what to do but please consider going and spending a couple of hours doing the training and practising on ‘Annie’ (the resus doll in case you were wondering!)

http://www.bhf.org.uk/heart-health/how-we-help/training/heartstart.aspx

Employers / community centres etc out there, please consider getting yourself a defib machine (we now have 8 on site and two have been used to save lives). Cost around £2000 each.

http://www.bhf.org.uk/heart-health/life-saving-skills/defibrillators.aspx

Blargh roll on the day when ambulances are told to replace your blood with cold saline to buy time for a hospital team.

When I’m studying I’m constantly reminded that whilst medically we’ve got to the point that someone has been cured of aids (albeit via a very risky blunt force method…bone marrow transplant from a resistant donor)…and we are now starting to see anticancer drugs that take a much better and more subtle molecular path in killing cancer cell……you’re still probably **** if you get a good old simple heart attack and there’s very little medical science can do about it…. 🙁

Still science progresses…. 😐 ….bring on routine bionic replacement of organs when your getting a bit old and worn and clothes that warn you of an impending heart attack! I’m looking forward to living in a transhuman world.

I’d like to see cheaper automatic defib machines as well so at risk age ranges and bushinesses etc purchase them.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070531113247.htm

I think the reaction of standing around and gawping is fairly normal, most people don’t just drop down dead in front of you, usually it’s a fall or other such mistake and it may take 20 seconds for it to become apparent it’s something more, by which time people aren’t sure who should take charge or quite what the way forward is without training.

Big up your missus.

A long, long time ago, lifeguarding at a sponsored swim. Chap had a cardiac arrest in the middle of the pool. We had him out on the side in less than 30s and worked on him until the cavalry arrived. DOA. From what I heard there was nothing we could have done to save him – was effectively already gone by the time we got him to the side.

Also one where I was on the scene and involved in the rescue but not the resus, a friend got trapped underwater for ~15 minutes. Had CPR performed for quite a while before the ambulance arrived, yet did survive – albeit badly brain damaged. Was glacial melt water hence why she survived when she should have died. As mentioned above, there is a much higher chance of success in drowning cases (though not normally when under for that long) than with cardiac arrest.

Well done to anybody for trying – if nobody tries they’d all die. Also much harder when it’s somebody you know – I’d have got involved in the latter case if necessary, but glad I didn’t have to (not least because after 15 minutes in the water I was verging on hypothermic when the adrenalin wore off!)

Yes and it was the catalyst for me moving to NZ. Central Line train, pregnant woman, collapsed with some heart issue. Everyone sat and looked at each other. I got going and eventually another guy jumped in to help. We had a very faint pulse which came and went. I jest you now someone asked me how long it was going to take ! My response is unprintable. I got hassled for pulling the emergency chain, someone stole my fckn bag and, ahhhhh Im getting wound up writing this down again. Paramedic that arrived was brilliant, nobody would help us get her off the train. Once she had been carted off I went to the other platform, went home and rang my boss to say I was resigning, would work my notice but was leaving London. Never found out what the outcome was but I would have said very marginal – I was a ski patroller and thus had EM training so knew what to do. The callous, impersonal, selfish attitude I got that day made me cry.

Nzcol

Nowt wrong with getting tearful over peoples attitudes mate.

Frontline work reveals a lot about society and unfortunately it’s not all positive!

Yes, at work.

Nzcol: I can see how that might have been the final straw…

OP: your wife did all that she could, and she should take some comfort from that. Good on her.

I was at a symposium yesterday and at the end a retired RAF pilot spoke to us, he collapsed at home, wife called 999, advice over the phone was to start compressions, ambulance arrived and did their shocking stuff, taken to a&e, transferred to heart hospital, itu, rehab & discharged home again.

He seemed pretty happy to be alive, again.

He thanked the multi disciplinary team that saved his life. Thats: his wife, the call centre dispatch, the ambo crew, the a&e team, anaesthnatists, cardiolgists, rehab…. the works, you get the picture, and it all could happen because someone (his wife in this case) phoned for an ambulance and cracked on with some chest compressions.

So yea, most probably you may be pissing in the wind by trying, but someone somewhere is gonna get turned back at the pearly gates!

As people have said, out of hospital resuscitation is not usually successful. This study has survival at about 12%, and this covers trained medical professionals delivering CPR as well as random punters like us.

http://www.bmj.com/content/311/7016/1332.full

Having said that, even if you halved that survival rate, for every 20 of us who try it, we will collectively save one life. That’s the key stat.

Even if you yourself didn’t save that life, being part of that drive to encourage others to attempt CPR does save lives.

The OP’s other half should try to think of it this way. She’s part of a group of people in our society who will save hundreds of lives a year.

I have done it in ITU – never seen or heard of a successful resus even in hospitals – By successful I mean that the person actually continued to live a full life for some time.

Personally I think the emphasis on resus is wrong – very wrong. The stress it puts people under is huge and for such little gain. Several of the stories of attempted resus on this thread were obviously completely pointless – the person was dead and even if the heart got restarted they would be badly brain damaged

If you see them go down and if there is some easily reversable cause then its maybe worth trying but in the vast majority of cases you are molesting a corpse. I feel very strongly about this because of what I have seen and that why I transferred out of ITU.

I personally would be unlikely to do cpr and I might have to defend that decision in court one day.

to the OP – you wife did what she could and its great she did.

I’ve tried, and failed on an elderly gent who was most likely gone before he hit the pavement.

For those with the training and a sense of human decency and compassion, it gives you something to do whilst you wait for tge ambulance, rather than stand around and feel helpless.

Several of the stories of attempted resus on this thread were obviously completely pointless

There have also been several that weren’t and you seem to being ignoring the fact that in the OP’s case it was a young woman and NOT someone on an ‘end of life’ plan, which is who (I hope) you were referring to with your molesting a corpse comment 🙄

I might have to defend that decision in court one day

What are the HPC Guidelines for nurses?

Woody – Its my opinion and one I feel strongly about.

This thread has made me think. I know some very basic first aid, but not how to do cpr. Where could I get training?

TJ

I understand what you’re saying. The problem I have is that you said “If you see them go down and if there is some easily reversable cause then its maybe worth trying“.

How exactly would you be able to tell if the reversible cause wasn’t obvious but easily rectified?

You appear to be saying that it’s not worth it but I could introduce you to at least two people who wouldn’t be around today if others had the same attitude as you. Sure it’s stressful but so is doing nothing!

easily reversible cause – electrical shock, drowning, that sort of thing.

A colleague of mine was called to a neighbours house by the neighbours wife. The neighbour was dead. No one knew how long hey had been on the floor for but fixed dilated pupils and so on. The 999 operator tried to get them to do CPR and when they refused asked if there was anyone else who could do it.

If that had been a lay person they would have been pressured into doing CPR on a corpse.

The two people you know of – were they in the community?

Of course every situation is different but IMO if yo find someone on the floor pulseless you are not doing the right thing attempting to resus them. How long have they been without O2?

My opinion and I am aware that I might have to account for it in court one day

i do a lot of resuscitation, probably averaging out at over one a week over the course of an average year. how successful they are depends on the factors leading up to the arrest but basically, a lot more successful than if no effort was made! which, in practice means that if no dnr order is in place you’re getting resuscitated!

however more of what my job is about is trying to ensure we don’t have to be resuscitating in the first place so we have a big emphasis in discussing outcomes with relatives in those who it’s unlikely we’d be getting back. that said if resus is what they want then that’s what they get regardless.

having said that what’s more rewarding (and tricky) is (and i’d stress this is in a hospital situation) managing the peri-arrest period and, hopefully, preventing the need for a resus attempt in the first place.

i think it’s disingenuous to suggest any attempt is pointless. i think anyone who works in that field will have some story of someone who’s survived who you just wouldn’t think would have any chance. and maximum respect from me to the ambulance crews who have to do this in situations a lot less benign than mine with, more often than not, far less of a chance of success.

and this, for me at any rate, counts double for someone who’s untrained, unused to it and is doing it in the community with no support.

the difficult bits? recognising small successes like keeping someone alive long enough that their relatives get to see them while they’re still breathing. dealing with staff, before, during or just getting them back to work post. multiple arrests or peri-arrests. and resuscitating children.

this last i find just plain traumatic. so if anyone here is, or has ever been involved in being in a paediatric response team let there be no doubt of the extent of love i have for you. even sitting here typing this i can feel myself tearing up at the thought of them arriving when i’m working on a crocked baby or somesuch. the best, most professional people i’ve ever worked with. period.

TandemJeremy
Several of the stories of attempted resus on this thread were obviously completely pointless – the person was dead and even if the heart got restarted they would be badly brain damaged

14 years ago my Dad and I did it on my uncle (his brother). 6 years ago I did it on my Dad. Both attempts were unsuccessful, but from my perspective hardly pointless. Hope I’m never as lacking in compassion as you.

I’m not going to argue with you TJ as it’s not appropriate to the thread and far more learned people than you or I have considered all the relevant data to arrive at the current resus guidelines and protocols.

I just hope that everyone reading this thread who may finds themselves in the position where CPR is necessary does their best in the circumstances.

i don’t think it’s necessarily fair to equate tj with lacking compassion just because of his stated postion on resuscitation. in hospital resuscitation is not a pretty thing and i think it’s fair to say for a fair percentage of those involved there are consequences.

that said medical types have a professional responsibility. i’d suggest that if their opinions are sufficiently strongly held that they’re prepared to put a grieving family thru a court process because of their principles then that’s a signifier they’re most likely in the wrong job.

Its my compassion that leads me to the position I am in.

I just hope that everyone reading this thread who may finds themselves in the position where CPR is necessary does their best in the circumstances.

Indeed

Had to do it on a construction site in Birmingham, old painter collapsed and a bit of a panic ensued. I was just getting onto my motorbike to go home when i got a few peeps running over to me to tell me what had happened.
Myself and another first aider made our way onto the first floor to see about 20 electricians and plumbers standing ina circle over the guy who had collapsed. 4 of them were 1st aiders but had frozen and couldn’t do anything.
I made sure someone had phoned the emergency services, and me and my mate looked at each other – he went for his chest which left me with his mouth – not pleasant as the guy smoked 80 fags a day and drank at least 12 pints of Guiness a night, his false teeth were half out of his mouth too.
I told the onlookers to **** offn but make sure we have people at the gate to guide in the emergency services. They all fcked off.
I have no idea how long the emergency services took, but we done our best and at leats got some colour back into him – but to no avail.
I know we didn’t save him, but we done what we were tought as first aiders – and that was good enough for me.
I was surprisingly un-affected by the whole CPR bit, but i was rightly pissd with the on-lookers who i gave a bit of a bollocking to the next day.
The guys wife, our client, my director and the guys work mates all thanked me for trying to save him – that made me feel OK.
I laso had to give first aid to a drunk guy who had been given a punch which knocked him through some doors outside of a pub – guys face exploded and the bouncer just closed the doors and left him lying on the pavement – i got a new shirt covered in claret and snot. I was only going out for a pint of milk and some bread.
Another time i was driving to Wrexham at 6 in the morning – some teenege bell end decides to overtake a car as he approached a blind hump (well signposted and soild white lines) smacked head on into a car coming up the hill.
Woman was trapped in her car and paniced. Lots of blood, had to smash the side windows with a steel toecap boot. Calmed the woman down and helped until emergency services get there.

Thanks to everyone whos posted. My wife is surprised at the amount of good people, and obviously professionals who have more experience with this situation.

I’ve nothing but respect for anyone who has to deal with this on a regular basis. Just to be able to say you did something rather than nothing must be the biggest motorvator to you and those around you, i would hope.

Again thanks for the support good kama coming your way. My thoughts with all who have lost someone like this..

Paramedic here. I’ve done more than I can remember, almost exclusively futile (age, health, end stage illness, cause of arrest etc all affect chances). However, the times when good cpr has ben done (and usually early defibrillation delivered) have sometimes produced excellent outcomes (including 2 who were back talking to us before arriving at hospital). Despite what is implicated by tv shows, this is incredibly rare in the out of hospital setting, usually due to the time it takes to get decent cpr and defibrillation (when appropriate) to the patient .

If you see someone collapse in front of you, and have the confidence to have a go, then you will give them the best chance. An open airway, and deep (5-6cm) compressions in the middle of the chest @120/min (ah ah ah ah staying alive….), allowing the chest to recoil back each time, are key, along with getting immediate professional help. However, be prepared for the fact that the individual is critically unwell and has a low chance of survival, but a low chance is better than no chance, which would be the result of inaction.

TJ brings another view, and it is worth considering. The majority of arrests we work on, we know will be futile. This is due to the (now thankfully improving) lack of end of life planning/ communication/ information that leads us to be called to elderly, infirm, chronically unwell people (ie reaching the end of their lives) when they have just breathed their last. Ambulance crews don’t have as much freedom as doctors to make decisions on not attempting or stopping resuscitation, except in certain defined circumstances. In the ideal world, these decisions would be made by the individual and communicated to their family before the event, and arrangement then put in place so futile and, in some ways, inhumane, intervention can be avoided.

Good points from Tom and TJ…well balanced and based upon experience.

I’d be careful though TJ … Your personal beliefs however valid may one day trip you up. I’ve seen a good friend of mine serve a lengthy custodial sentence for not being seen to do the right thing !

I did an infant resuscitation course on Wednesday. I hope I never have to use it.

if you dont try only one outcome is certain.
if you do you may not succeed but you had a go and you ll have an experience that may benifit the next person you have the chance to help

My Dad arrested 21 times in total coming up 2 years ago now whilst in ITU, thankfully TJ wasn’t on that day and my Dad now lives a pretty much full life and even had a new life experience yesterday when he went fishing and caught a Rainbow Trout. Yes most fail but that few percent that survive is what we’re aiming for.

disben that is a fantastic tale, well done man.

Big pat on the back for the OP’s wife.

I’ve had to deal with various first aid situations, and had the CPR training a few times. Fortunately, I haven’t had to use it yet.

My girlfriend is a first aid trainer and showed my this (not work-safe) video about CPR:

http://youtu.be/4ArXuQwjj7Q

Possibly not the best practical guide…

TJ
The two people you know of – were they in the community?

Yes.

I have said two as they are the only ones I can confirm as having a successful outcome as we rarely get to find out what happens after they have been handed over to A+E. One of them, who arrested in his house and again as we arrived at the hospital, walked into the ambulance station with a donation 2 weeks later. There have been 7 or 8 others who have been delivered to hospital with a ROSC and even conscious but I have no idea what the outcome was other than some were still alive when I enquired next day.

Woody – forgot you were a paramedic. Its different if you have the kit to hand.

Drac – thats not the situation I mean.

Some of these people were technically dead several minutes before I got there and as I’m usually on my own in a rapid response car nowadays, all I can do is basic CPR until a crew arrives, or someone on scene is willing and proficient enough to let me do other things.

The point TJ, is that although the prognosis is generally poor, CPR works often enough in these circumstances to make it worthwhile trying and I believe you have a moral and ethical duty to at least give the person a chance.

Granted TJ but I know at least 2 people living in this town who have been living a normal life after someone attempted CPR and have been for over 10 years.

As MC says my dad was successful at a motorcycle hill climb race. The guy just rolled to a stop at the finish line and fell slowly to one side, my dad (who’d only had CPR training 2 weeks earlier) and another competitor ran over.

In fact the story is here

http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/news/4579953.Lancaster_man_who____died____twice_thanks_his_life_savers/

The guy is still racing motorbikes, and rings my dad every new years eve.

Amazing how often the first members of public to attend (or stop at and get involved in) a scene are off-duty or ex emergency services. I’m a copper too and the last (sadly fatal) road crash I stopped to help at whilst out on a motorbike ride, every one of the half dozen people on scene was an off-duty copper/paramedic/GP.

You and your wife should be justly proud of her efforts, even if in vain. Even people with training and the best intentions can panic and freeze.