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Viewing 40 posts - 34,201 through 34,240 (of 38,687 total)
  • The Coronavirus Discussion Thread.
  • twrch
    Free Member

    It seems to me that the main issue is not patients with Covid, but the state of things now that all sorts of Covid guidelines and procedures (including Covid isolation-related staffing issues). In fact, this is exactly what I said in my last comment (and practically every other comment I’ve made on the topic).

    Surely we need all of those procedures in place, to protect everyone from Covid, and all of these side effects (patients can’t be discharged due to non-existent community care, no GP service so people wait until they have multiple and severe issues before going to A+E, experienced staff burning out under absurd working conditions or being reassigned to Covid roles, new parents who have never had a post-natal health visit and now with sniffly and coughing babies taking NHS resources because they have absolutely no experience with what a normal illness looks like, etc etc) are just necessary consequences that we need to live with?

    Or, is Covid not the absolute worst (by which I mean, we can tolerate some extra risk, and address some of the other issues we currently face with our healthcare system)?

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    I’m over 40 & went to book booster but told gp would contact to arrange

    Were you told that by the surgery? I wouldn’t rely on that as something which will happen in a timely way.

    I’m not entirely sure how the NHS is going to deliver these 2m boosters a week that the politicians are promising. A lot of the infrastructure which rolled out 1st and 2nd doses at that level is no longer operating in my area, the burden has been placed back on practices and pharmacies which have a ton of competing priorities.

    Trying to book one at the moment throws up dates in January or beyond, I think, and I can’t see that improving once they throw it open to 20s and 30s.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    Were you told that by the surgery? I wouldn’t rely on that as something which will happen in a timely way.

    That’s what I get when I try & book online, says not eligible

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    It seems to me that the main issue is not patients with Covid, but the state of things now that all sorts of Covid guidelines and procedures (including Covid isolation-related staffing issues). In fact, this is exactly what I said in my last comment (and practically every other comment I’ve made on the topic).

    The main issue is always patients with Covid, or the threat covid poses to the other vulnerable people in the care of NHS hospitals. As soon as you have to treat even a handful of very sick people with an infection that poses a threat to the other extremely vulnerable people in your care, your capacity is massively affected. You can’t put them in beds next to other patients, you can’t expose those other patients to staff who may have it. Then you pull staff from other clinics and wards, you stop admitting some people who otherwise would have received hospital care. Their outcomes potentially worsen. The estimate of excess deaths in the UK not from covid is now in the tens of thousands.

    As the number of covid sick in hospital increases, the knock-on to other sick people is far greater.

    This is why even marginally effective measures such as mask-wearing are a no-brainer. Let’s use the post up there as an example. If a train journey is a source of transmission, how many others received the same dose as him? How many have unknowingly and unavoidably passed it to family or friends? As the numbers tot up, the chances of hitting a vulnerable or unvaccinated person, or breaking through vaccine protection increase too. Every person who crosses the threshold of a hospital with a serious covid infection has a disproportionately large effect on the capacity of the NHS to offer care to others.

    That’s what I get when I try & book online, says not eligible

    It’s academic for you now, I guess, you need to wait four weeks post positive PCR to receive a booster anyhow, by which time you will definitely be eligible. Hope you’re feeling better soon.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    I’m not entirely sure how the NHS is going to deliver these 2m boosters a week that the politicians are promising.

    I believe that they are currently exceeding that amount. On Saturday, which is the latest available figure, 450,480 received either a booster or third jab.

    On the day I received my booster a couple of weeks ago over half a million were delivered, but generally it appears to be over a third of a million a day.

    Which I understand is the principal reason for wanting as much as possible to slow down the inevitable spread of Omicron – to minimise hospitalisations.

    dantsw13
    Free Member

    I’m pretty certain PCRs still pick up Omicron? Its just 1 of the 3 genes not detected.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    Yeah I suppose it depends what reactions they include in the test
    According to (famed molecular biologist 😉) Peston most won’t

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    I believe that they are currently exceeding that amount.

    Ah, cool, didn’t realise they were back up at that level. Hopefully uptake will be decent in the lower age groups.

    dantsw13
    Free Member

    There are loads of trained vaccinators currently not working due to centre closures.

    Anybody working in the NHS Covid centres is also limited where they can work. I was taken on by The Sussex Community NHS Trust, after my training through NHS professionals. The 2 centres I worked at shut down, and my closest is 90 minutes drive away, and I would also have to pay for 8 hrs central Brighton parking.

    There are lots near me, but either pharmacy run, or different trusts, so I can’t work at those.

    twrch
    Free Member

    the threat covid poses to the other vulnerable people in the care of NHS hospitals

    So the former of my two options – that is, all care needs to be designed around minimising the theoretical risk of transmitting Covid, and despite the fact that Covid-presenting patients currently represent far from the greatest public health need, as well as the fact that most people (and practically everyone who is at increased risk) are vaccinated.

    In that case, we should rename it the “NCS” (National Covid Service), and urgently seek out another healthcare provider for everything else.

    My issue with this approach is that not only does it ignore current health needs, it is counter-productive to its own goals. That is, the numerous and severe side effects (compounded health needs due to deferred healthcare, excess staff stress and burnout, etc etc) directly cause the very thing we are trying to prevent – an extra burden on the NHS.

    As for mask-wearing – if that was all it took to ease the load on the NHS, then Wales should be a shining example of how well that works. After all, we’ve had a mask mandate since September 2020. As it is, the Welsh NHS is in such a shocking state that we are at risk of uncontrolled home births.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    So you’re suggesting creating an entirely separate care system for covid 🙄

    And no one says that masks are all it takes

    Just that they help and as they are minimal hassle you’d have to be massively selfish not to wear one

    kelvin
    Full Member

    In that case, we should rename it the “NCS” (National Covid Service), and urgently seek out another healthcare provider for everything else.

    How long will that take?

    You seem to be suggesting that if NHS locations and services pretend that Covid isn’t a thing, then they can get on and treat more people. It’s a totally bogus idea… it doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny whatsoever.

    if that was all it took to ease the load on the NHS

    It isn’t. Who claimed that it was?

    montgomery
    Full Member

    BBC News – Covid in Scotland: ‘Test much more’ plea after Omicron cases found
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-59457332

    https://youtu.be/ZR_TQZjMCbo

    Del
    Full Member

    It’s a good thing we’ve got you twrch. You can point out to these health care professionals where they’ve been going wrong!

    twrch
    Free Member

    I’ll say it again – masks apparently have not made a difference for the Welsh NHS, as we have been wearing them continuously since last September. Unless, that is, you want to make the argument that there is some other confounding factor that makes the quality of health service here in Wales very significantly worse than England, and it was the public mask wearing that kept it from getting as bad as it could have been (and it is currently terrible).

    As for my somewhat flippant comment about a separate healthcare system – it set a few of you off. However, it’s not a totally ridiculous idea. We’ve had 2 years to work this out, we’ve also justified historical levels of voluntary economic, social, and health sacrifices to “protect the NHS”. Making a separate health care system just to treat those vulnerable to Covid is certainly within that ballpark.

    As a side note – my very aged and frail grandfather had a knee replacement in September 2020. It was done privately (obviously, because he’d be dead before the NHS got around to killing him with a hospital-bourne Covid case) with no fuss, and he’s as (un-) healthy as ever.

    twrch
    Free Member

    You can point out to these health care professionals where they’ve been going wrong!

    I have health care professionals on my side. A very close relative (who works for the ambulance service) and I frequently swap dark jokes about just how awful this path we are on has become. They are also a deeply caring person who is incredibly troubled at the speed with which decades and maybe even centuries of hard-earned medical ethics and practices have been thrown aside, because this is a “special emergency”. For one, the ever-increasing use of scary hospital and medical scenes being used to “educate” (or maybe even nudge) the public into the dangers of disease, goes so far against all they were taught about the need to humanise healthcare that it almost brought them to tears telling me about it. I’m sure @tjagain would not disagree.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    I’m willing to bet he won’t!

    We’ve absolutely been spared the worst of what the NHS has dealt with
    At the start we were shown the grim situation in Italian hospitals, in a way we haven’t seen here

    , unless I missed the special where they showed us what the 175,000 excess deaths from covid looked like

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Making a separate health care system just to treat those vulnerable to Covid is certainly within that ballpark.

    You do realise that most health care provision (and social care for that matter) is for, and used by, those “vulnerable to Covid”, yes?

    Where do all the health care workers come from for your new second health care system? I mean, I assume you intend for it to increase total capacity, not just split it, yes? As a lay person, your idea of what can actually be achieved within two years seems more than a little bit optimistic.

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    and urgently seek out another healthcare provider for everything else.

    Hang on, I’ll get my old copy of the Yellow Pages…aah, there we are, AAAAAA Critical Care Services, 24hr callout…

    I know Boris promised 40 new hospitals just like that before the election, but you know he wasn’t actually telling the truth, didn’t you?

    Klunk
    Free Member

    an extra burden on the NHS.

    LOL that is nothing to the burden they would have to bear if they ignored the risks of catching covid.

    kilo
    Full Member

    . For one, the ever-increasing use of scary hospital and medical scenes being used to “educate” (or maybe even nudge) the public into the dangers of disease, goes so far against all they were taught about the need to humanise healthcare that it almost brought them to tears telling me about it.

    Don’t let them see the scary pictures on a packet of fags or they’ll have kittens.

    twrch
    Free Member

    For all those jumping on my somewhat flippant suggestion – it’s already happening, and is called private health care. If you want care, even as someone “vulnerable to Covid”, you can go private if you are lucky enough (as in the story of my aged grandad, who survived a knee op in a private hospital in September 2020 despite always looking like he’s on death’s door), or you can accept your fate (as in the case of my dear neighbour, who is in his 80’s, fit and healthy (he refused my offer to help shovel snow off his drive), and recently told me he’s resigned to never getting the op he needs to keep himself mobile. But hey, he’s safe from Covid!).

    It turns out it’s perfectly possible to provide all sorts of healthcare, when your first order of business is not finding a “virus proof” plastic cape and telling people they can only be diagnosed over Zoom or a photo in an app.

    Don’t let them see the scary pictures on a packet of fags or they’ll have kittens.

    Careless comparison. The contents of a packet of fags will almost certainly end up giving you lung cancer. The contents of a hospital is supposed to heal you.

    At the start we were shown the grim situation in Italian hospitals

    I’ve been shown scary pictures of hospitals, from all over the world, since March 2020 (including very recently, of my very own local hospital). As there is no data or concrete information to go along with them, I obviously dismiss them as media click-baiting. I’d be very interested to hear from anyone with any experience of Italian healthcare during the pandemic.

    LOL that is nothing to the burden they would have to bear if they ignored the risks of catching covid.

    As I already said in my comment that you quoted, every parent I know has done at least one of the things I listed that should be considered “an un-necessary burden”, and all of which are new in our Covid world. None of them, not even those who mix and go out as much as possible, have burdened the NHS with extra Covid issues.

    Del
    Full Member

    You haven’t actually proposed a solution though?

    I imagine you can probably knock up the required 40,000 people to fill vacancies in NHS posts in a few weeks. If you can do that you can probably sort out the shortage of care workers for nursing homes and other social carers too. Perhaps while you’re at it you can address the chronic shortage of teaching and support staff too?

    10 years of austerity and Brexit contributed massively to the edge of the abyss state of the nation’s healthcare. Covid is the cherry on top. What’s the solution if what we’re doing now isn’t it?

    thepurist
    Full Member

    How many private hospitals offer an A&E service, or critical care? The NHS offers far more than any private healthcare provider, and I’m pretty sure that those private providers will require you to have a clear covid test before you turn up to be treated (by appointment) so they are intrinsically doing the segregation that you say they are not.

    Still not clear what you’re driving at though – is it that if we ignore Covid it will stop being such a problem, because all the sick people will just be regular sick people rather than covid sick people? That’ll work.

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    There is a slight difference between private hospitals doing certain types of elective work in a controlled fashion and operating a parallel entire secondary care system in tandem with the NHS. The idea that our country’s health system could undergo this kind of root and branch reform DURING a massive global pandemic which has stretched it breaking point is beyond laughable.

    I’m sure over the next decade, we will plan (and then probably underfund) efforts to operate a more efficient split system if something similar happens again, but what you are proposing would require a)massive investment in infrastructure and equipment at a time the public finances are being pummelled
    b) a massive recruitment and training programme at a time when we can’t even fill posts in the existing model.

    nickc
    Full Member

    Apparently Van-Tam has said it’s not the time to panic…”at this stage”

    so that’s OK then.

    jam-bo
    Full Member

    boosters for all then. interesting to see how that works, booked mine as soon as they opened for 40+ and got one for the 22nd dec

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    Apparently Van-Tam has said it’s not the time to panic…”at this stage”

    I shall await his order to panic in due course.

    To be fair, I find his attitude and explanations to be very frank and pragmatic, so if he says it’s not the time to panic, I’m happy to agree. Panicking and taking further measures are too different things.

    Of course, when he says it is time to panic, I will absolutely shit myself inside out!

    makkag
    Free Member

    43 here booster booked today for Wednesday 0.6 of a mile from my house sounds like I got lucky !

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    Apparently Van-Tam has said it’s not the time to panic…”at this stage”

    LOL He didn’t put it quite that dramatically!

    .
    “I want to be clear this is not all doom and gloom at this stage and I do not want people to panic at this stage,”

    The man is not a politician so he probably isn’t too aware of how every word matters.

    He was trying to reassure the public after announcing that the booster would be extended to all those 18 and over.

    Just as well didn’t also claim that there is no reason to panic buy toilet paper….. that would have presumably caused chaos!

    kilo
    Full Member

    Edit another poster for the cba’ed pile

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    Evening Standard: Omicron variant could be a ‘Christmas gift’, says German health expert.
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/covid-omicron-variant-christmas-gift-south-africa-expert-b968960.html

    mefty
    Free Member

    Frankly the big issue is how too many people are pronouncing Omicron as if it is a kid’s toy or a character in a child’s movie. Omicron is literally the small (micros) O as opposed to Omega which is the large (megas) O, how do these people pronounce microscope?

    thepurist
    Full Member

    Frankly the big issue is how too many people are pronouncing Omicron

    Just be glad we haven’t had to deal with mu, nu, xi, chi and phi 😉

    reluctantjumper
    Full Member

    I’ll say it again – masks apparently have not made a difference for the Welsh NHS, as we have been wearing them continuously since last September. Unless, that is, you want to make the argument that there is some other confounding factor that makes the quality of health service here in Wales very significantly worse than England, and it was the public mask wearing that kept it from getting as bad as it could have been (and it is currently terrible).

    I’ve tried to resist but I just have to rip this all apart.

    Wales has historically had and continues to have a very large proportion of it’s population that are ill, vulnerable and disabled. A legacy from the pits in the Valleys, industry in the North and swathes of the rest being poor and lacking in healthcare provision. This left Wales extremely vulnerable to Covid running rampant, even compared to England if we had comparable restrictions. The fact that we’re only doing slightly worse than England is to do with the fact we have continued to mandate masks, opened up later and locked down earlier. If we had followed the English rules Wales would be a plague nation by now. Add in that mask use wasn’t universally followed and that we share a big border with England that wasn’t closed all summer and you have the situation we are in now.

    So when you say that “masks apparently have not made a difference for the Welsh NHS” you’re ignoring so many other factors that come into play that it means you are talking complete and utter bollocks.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    how do these people pronounce microscope?

    Hopefully like this:

    /ˈmʌɪkrəskəʊp/

    Which is confusing as an example for

    /əʊˈmaɪkrɒn/

    as the first “o” in microscope isn’t the same but the sencond is.

    mefty
    Free Member

    I will say one thing for you, you really excel at missing the point.

    P-Jay
    Free Member

    In addition to what @reluctantjumper said, it’s worth also mentioning that in Wales whilst we’re still required to wear masks, it only really applies to shops, when compliance has been 50% or lower sometimes when I’ve been shopping.

    I was out in Cardiff Friday night, for the first time in a very long time, way before Covid, I had a great time, I’m still slightly hungover, but masks aren’t required in Hospitality settings, everywhere was packed, 4 deep at the bar. I watched Wales v Fiji in Cardiff a few weeks before 60k+ people all sat shoulder to shoulder, stacked in neat rows, singing and shouting, masks weren’t required, you had to have a Covid pass in both, but I doubt they’re as effective as they hope, if you’re a covid denier, they’re pretty easy to fake/cheat. Most work places I visit are mask free, social distancing isn’t really a thing, we’ve become incredibly lax.

    Saying “Wales still use masks and look at them” doesn’t really tell the whole story, they’re really only there now to protect shop workers, but even they don’t really wear them.

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    Omicron variant could be a ‘Christmas gift’, says German health expert.

    I’ve had a variety of Christmas gifts, some of them less welcome than others. He needs to be more specific.

    Set of hand-knitted dishcloths or Lego Star Wars Millennium Falcon?

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    It’s the thought that counts!

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