thanks theotherjonv I will stop holding my breath!

Pressure from a number of corporate and organisational vested interests.

Seems unlikely to me that a group of wildly divergent countries across the world would willingly choose to trash their economies.

It’s a cabal of tech companies promoting lockdowns to sell more teams / zoom / internets licenses

So you think helping to prevent the transmission of a disease with something as simple and convenient and cheap as a mask is crazy? how is something like that hobbling anyone?

Many people find masks uncomfortable, they are a visual sign that prolongs the fear, they do not allow effective communication since as we all know, 90% of communication is non verbal. My 16 year old nephew who is mostly deaf has particularly struggled throughout this, not being able to see the usual facial expressions etc. Are these invalid points perhaps?

I am yet to see any credible evidence as to the effectiveness of wearing a mask in relation to viral transmission, such is the tiny size of viral particles. Can’t remember who but have heard one respiratory doctor say that wearing a mask for a virus is like trying to catch a grain of sand in a football net.

The data is so far pretty inconclusive as to any benefits. I am afraid that it is just is not good enough to say ‘well we think there could be some benefit’ because under medical ethics code, when prescribing any medical intervention, a doctor needs to know that there is a good chance that it will work.

We have so far spent the best part of $166 billion on masks during the 2020 period, a good proportion of which now lay littered in hedgerows or are slowly killing marine life in the ocean. Think of the actual good we could have achieved with that money if we’d invested it in other areas of healthcare? Crazy does not even begin to describe the utter lunacy and short sightedness of this!

Still, if that doesn’t worry you then this should:

The mask of the future.

Submit your solution to the world's most pressing challenges, on UpLink: https://t.co/w1KkdJSWsW @WEFUpLink #GTGS21 pic.twitter.com/dBKNUfflZE

— World Economic Forum (@wef) April 7, 2021

A smart mask that the government can check to see if you are being a good boy and wearing. What on earth have we stooped to as a society if this is the new normal? Still, I await the accusations of being a conspiracy theorist!

It’s a cabal of tech companies lizards promoting lockdowns to sell more teams / zoom / internets licenses

FTFY

Many people find masks uncomfortable,

ah, diddums Sorry, but really who cares.

they are a visual sign that prolongs the fear,

now you’re really straying into the realms of psycho-babble. There’s no sensible evidence that folk are being traumatised because they have to wear a mask, (it’s pretty common in SE Asia after all)

they do not allow effective communication since as we all know, 90% of communication is non verbal.

again, you state this like it’s a fact, when you’re just guessing.

I am yet to see any credible evidence as to the effectiveness of wearing a mask in relation to viral transmission

Here’s just the first one I googled  The evidence is all around you, you just have to look, and it’s certainly better quality that that meaningless graph you posted

You’ve clearly made up your mind, and arguing on the internet never changed anyone’s opinion. I hope you make good decisions that don’t effect the people around you, and wish you good luck.

since as we all know, 90% of communication is non verbal.

Actually we don’t, the Mehrabian study that this stat comes from was very specific and is largely discredited. You cannot suggest that 90% of an information based exchange is conveyed by body language and tone. Indeed, if i was to say “Only 7% of communication comes from the actual words used” how will you get 93% of the understanding from my body language and tone?

Even Mehrabian himself said

“Please note,” Dr. Mehrabian wrote, “that this and other equations regarding relative importance of verbal and nonverbal messages were derived from experiments dealing with communications of feelings and attitudes (i.e., like-dislike). Unless a communicator is talking about their feelings or attitudes, these equations are not applicable.”

https://www.pgi.com/blog/2020/03/how-much-of-communication-is-really-nonverbal/

I do understand the point though. I work with a profoundly deaf colleague, he has a neat app that converts speech to text for him on his phone to overcome when he cannot lipread. I’d assume your friend is aware but if not I can find out.

Anyway….. now you’re here any chance you could answer my questions about the graph you posted as evidence that lockdowns don’t work?

now you’re really straying into the realms of psycho-babble. There’s no sensible evidence that folk are being traumatised because they have to wear a mask, (it’s pretty common in SE Asia after all)

Psycho babble? You might want to read this report from our Government that actively sought to manipulate and ramp up the fear factor in the population. This is a government document but no doubt you will also label this a lizard people stuff since that’s what generally happens isn’t it when there is something you can’t provide a strong come back against?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/882722/25-options-for-increasing-adherence-to-social-distancing-measures-22032020.pdf

Instead of nit-picking on the minutia of my mask argument in an attempt to score cheap points, why don’t you perhaps address the main thrust instead, i.e do you think that $166 billion spent in masks in 202 is a good or proportional thing, based on the lack of evidence that they work and compared to what we could have used that money for?

Blood thinners probably

Actually its IVIG intravenous immunoglobulin to act as an immunosuppressant, other subsequent management treatments may follow including thinners but NOT heparin. The immediate challenge is an immunological one, so damping down the immune system by flooding with benign antibodies to counter some of the presumed cross-reactive ones that may be causing thrombotic events. The similarity to heparin-induced clotting is interesting. Eventually more understanding will come. My guess would be that the vaccine has induced some cross-reactive antibodies that start a cascade.

When we test new therapeutic antibodies, we look at tissue cross-reactivity against a panel of human tissues. I don’t think that is done with vaccine sera from antibodies made in response to human vaccination. It’s always assumed that they are highly specific magic bullets. But they bind to small regions of protein (epitopes) and such regions may also be present on other proteins. I’ve only ever seen it once in my own therapeutic antibody development (20 plus mAbs). It killed a project immediately.

The guidance is being continuously updated:

https://b-s-h.org.uk/media/19530/guidance-version-13-on-mngmt-of-thrombosis-with-thrombocytopenia-occurring-after-c-19-vaccine_20210407.pdf

IANAMD

Anyway….. now you’re here any chance you could answer my questions about the graph you posted as evidence that lockdowns don’t work?

I’m just off out on the bike now but I will get back to you at some point. It is very hard to keep up on here when I’ve been doing jobs around the house this morning and I find myself discussing as one person against many people who are working against my argument and trying to prove me wrong. Some out of good faith, but some clearly out of malice and of a trolling nature. Often difficult to distinguish the two and respond accordingly.

OK, enjoy the ride. I’ll wait.

It is very hard to keep up on here when I’ve been doing jobs around the house this morning and I find myself discussing as one person against many people

It’s just I’ve asked many times now, including in posts where you have selectively answered parts but never this bit, that it seems to me a bit like you’re avoiding it. Which is odd to me as it seems to be a key piece of the evidence to support your assertion that lockdowns don’t work.

You might want to read this report from our Government that actively sought to manipulate and ramp up the fear factor in the population.

This is true, but the question is whether this is bad which I guess also comes down to whether you believe the threat is real or not. We’ve run hard hitting campaigns on smoking/cancer, seatbelts, drink driving….. which have all worked.

YMMV, clearly.

So perfumes will generally travel further, but you’re not comparing like with like.

Additionally, smelling someone’s perfume requires a tiny number of particles to activate your scent receptors – evidence suggests you need a concentrated exposure to airborne viral droplets over time for a significant risk of covid transmission, hence outdoor contact now considered a lot safer than indoor.

Either way, he shouldn’t be too concerned when he smells someone’s Lynx Africa on the way past. Doesn’t stop me flinching slightly when I cycle through someone’s cigarette fug than has come straight from the depths of their airways, though. 🙂

Government that actively sought to manipulate and ramp up the fear factor in the population.

I also remember the AIDS “tombstone” campaign, I think that jolted many folk out of their complacency, wouldn’t you agree? I’ll be honest. I’d rather take the advice of the epidemiologists, virologists, and other disease experts than you. thanks all the same.

What’s the master plan then Curly?

If lockdowns don’t work and you have all the pertinent questions surely you have all the answers and a solution manifesto?
You even have the benefit of hindsight to aid your plan for dealing with covid that doesn’t overwhelm the NHS, kill lots of people, impact the economy and the education of the country’s youth.

I can’t be the only one who wants to know?

Some out of good faith, but some clearly out of malice and of a trolling nature. Often difficult to distinguish the two and respond accordingly.

To be clear, my comments are out of “malice”. I’ve had a year of having to reassure relatives that have come across the bullshit you are enjoying spreading/repeating here, and I consider what you are doing as despicable. As you created a new account just to post this nonsense, I think you should be called out for it rather than engaged with seriously. Just my opinion.

Curlywurly is the best troll on this thread to date. He’s a free thinking disruptor

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/alcohol/maverick-and-four-other-phrases-arseholes-use-to-describe-themselves-20210409206976

Thanks for the info on the CVSTs. Whilst obviously I won’t be explaining the treatment in detail, it’s good to know that I can say “If you report it and get access to treatment, these events are treatable “ and know there is some basis to that statement.

I’m not surprised A&E is being overloaded with this. A lot of people are very afraid. If we want vaccine uptake to remain high we must ensure their concerns are taken seriously.

Interesting to see that J&J jab now having similar issues. Isn’t it’s technology very similar to AZ?

Isn’t it’s technology very similar to AZ?

The very same. AZ and J&J use an adenovirus as a vector to insert viral DNA that codes for the spike protein into the cells. Moderna and Pfizer just coat the raw mRNA in a lipid package with a hard shell (Polyethylene glycol) for direct reading in the cell itself. The NYT has done some excellent articles on the modes of action

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/health/johnson-johnson-covid-19-vaccine.html

Still, I await the accusations of being a conspiracy theorist!

You’re a conspiracy theorist.

There you can stop waiting now

To be clear, my comments are out of “malice”.

Mine are as well, I’ll happily put you in the “sadly delusional” side of the accounts. I don’t wish you ill, and I hope your actions don’t negatively effect those around you, but I consider your posts on here as deliberate and malicious misinformation.

Is that actually an option? You get to pick and choose?

Yup, on my phone app I could reserve Moderna or Pfizer for some future date in a vaccination centre and when the doc phoned he made it clear I could accept AZ and get my shoes on or wait for the others.

The strategy here seems to be giving the job of convincing people to accept AZ to GPs, who also select the patients they think will be OK with AZ. To be honest it’s reassuring to know there’s someone you know is reactive there to respond in the case of getting any of the warning symptoms. So far so good, I’m putting feeling tired down to 4h of MTB this morning.

I consider your posts on here as deliberate and malicious misinformation.

That’s overly harsh. It strikes me as a genuinely held opinion with which you happen to disagree.

It’s a shame that mutual respect isn’t part of the rules for this particular forum.

It’s a shame that mutual respect isn’t part of the rules for this particular forum.

I’ve deliberately said I don’t wish him harm but I don’t have any respect for his point of view.

Most of our centres haven’t got a clue what vaccine they are getting next week! Many do multiple vaccines so personal choice isn’t an option.

Personally if someone refused the vaccine offered I think they should go to the back of the queue (obvs unless gp suggests they need a change,)

That’s overly harsh. It strikes me as a genuinely held opinion with which you happen to disagree

The issue is not having a different opinion, but you need to debate it and be able to defend it, not just keep restating it, or avoiding the questions by keep asking your own.

I’m prepared to give the chance to do that but they have avoided my very specific question for a day and a half now, despite multiple requests and multiple posts from them in the meantime.

Which is becoming reminiscent of the MO of multiple other ‘new’ members on here which is what has caused some hackles to rise.

Claims like ‘all the data shows’ or ‘everyone knows’ that are demonstrably contentious need to be backed up. It’s not just for the disagree-ers to show why they think it’s wrong; you have to show why you think it’s right and answer the critics.

I’d like people to be more civil but the obvious trolls have spoiled it for the genuine alternate view proponents.

I think any kind of punitive system is counterproductive and choice is good. The objective is to get as many people vaccinated as possible as quickly as possible with as few vaccination deaths/serious complications as possible. At present there’s still a shortage of all vaccines despite age range limitations on AZ and reticence. As the numbers keep coming in then hopefully confidence in AZ can be rebuilt.

The Germans are up to 41 clotting incidents from their initial AZ batches, if they can show that the age range limits have brought incidents into line with other vaccines they have more chance of finding people willing to use AZ than if they’d tried to continue regardless of the evidence.

So less than half of your clickbait attempt of 750,000. You do know when you make assumptions and post questionable evidential data it only serves to lessen your already pretty weak stance, right?

You should probably read what you quote. That’s excess deaths not total deaths. We had 80k excess deaths last year.

I’m personally against lockdowns but won’t deny they work as a blunt instrument to limit social contact and therefore the spread of covid. My personal preference would be to let people make their own choices.

My personal preference would be to let people make their own choices.

I’m inclined to agree….. but then I remember how bad the public has been when we have been left to our own devices, and then I disagree. And then I think of my more libertarian attitudes and the impact of these lockdowns on the nation long term…..and then I…….

Which is why I welcome the different views. I look at the evidence and overall I’m still supportive of lockdowns as the lesser of (all shit) evils, but I’m also very happy for others to bring new evidence and convince me otherwise. Still waiting though……

It’s a shame that mutual respect

Thing about respect is it is proffered until one is no longer worthy of it. Failing to answer civil queries whilst spouting opinion that is not backed with solid evidence loses respect faster than a housebrick dropped from the Shard.

Guess where you currently are?

’m inclined to agree….. but then I remember how bad the public has been when we have been left to our own devices, and then I disagree

This sums it up for me. Sweden chose such a path of personal responsibility with some additional intervention such as school closures. The UK singularly seems to fail in this regard. My personal feeling is that “this is just not the pandemic people were looking for”. It is a serious disease, but it is not 10% mortality SARS-CoV-1 serious. People would voluntarily be hiding indoors with those odds.

Lockdown is the least bad option (there are no good options). The effects of contact restriction are really now self-evident. The consequences to the economy and public health will become more evident as time passes. I believe the economy will bounce back relatively quickly. Look at the pent-up demand for travel, for example.

And the amount of savings people have accumulated. Some people have been hit badly but the majority have continued to “earn” pretty much as usual while spending much less. I haven’t see UK numbers, French and German ones are impressive. A lot of this money governments have been printing and borrowing is sat in consumers’ bank accounts.

@Edukator – a recent piece on Newsnight explained that the top 80% of society saved a lot,  I think it was £170/pp/pm

Sadly the bottom 20% of society had to go into debt to get to work, pay the bills etc. The amount ~£170/pp/pm

Even with Covid the rich get richer and the poor struggle even more. It was very depressing.

So Nickc and Kelvin have now outed themselves as malicious trolls, and I really wonder if they get this outraged about some bloke on the internet who just happens to have a different opinion to them, whether perhaps we should have genuine concerns about their state of mind and if it is actually healthy for them to remain in this discussion.

Having thought about this I can conclude that sadly I’m now out. It has become apparent that a number of people here are not debating in good faith so it would seem futile to waste my time further engaging with such people. It seems that some are here simply to prove themselves right, yet remain too blinkered, too entrenched, or too brainwashed to be open to any alternatives. Part of the reason why we are in this great mess and the reason why we have conspiracy theories in circulation is that open discussion has been shut down. Scientific debate has been stifled and alternative scientific opinions bullied mostly into submission or silence. Much like this forum then it would seem!

theotherjonv I think your question was about lockdown stringency index. If you Google ‘Lockdown Stringency Index’ or similar phrase you will get plenty of information on this that will probably explain things far better than I ever could.

I was going to write a long post on the above but it seems clear people have not engaged properly with plenty of the other posts I have made already so I really don’t think it’s worth my time any more. Instead they ignore the difficult questions and snipe, nit-pick or try to discredit my sources rather than engaging with the data at hand. Sadly this has been usual whenever I have tried to engage with people I know personally who are so entrenched in their views, so closed are they to new or alternative ideas. Seldom are their arguments based on objectively looking at data, they seem more concerned with simply trying to shut you up. I wonder why if their argument indeed holds much merit?

Someone else asked a question about vested interests and their influence. My answer to this would be to follow the money. Look at who benefits from this crisis and compare this with their ability to influence and there is your answer. The mass media? Big tech? Pharma? Online & social media? Green organisations? WHO? WEF? etc.

Finally I think that some of you really need to get a grip. This is a disease that, barring a few statistical outliers, effects the elderly and a select few people with other conditions only so we needed to react to it as such. Sadly we haven’t. We all need to get some reality and perhaps put some context to the numbers actually dying from Covid-19, or with a positive test result for Sars-Cov-2. Compare this to the other causes of death we seem to care so little about these days in comparison and you can then judge for yourself whether what we have done to ourselves is proportionate and rational. We have so far spent here in the UK somewhere between 3 and 4 times the entire annual NHS budget on Covid-19 measures. To save how many lives? Probably none if you look at the long term picture. Utter, utter lunacy! A total cluster fusk of incompetence!

Sadly, pandering to the irrational fear of loud-mouthed people like some on here has cost many others their lives, their businesses, their mental health, their education, their relationships. Their misguided need for personal safety at all cost has ridden roughshod over the long term health, hopes and aspirations of millions of the less fortunate. They are so arrogant as to believe that what works for them should work for all. Utter SCUM!

I hope you think it was all worth it guys when the dust finally settles? I hope you will have the decency to come back on here to apologise?

We have been manipulated and lied to throughout yet there are none so blind who will not see. Still, enjoy your echo chamber.

Having thought about this I can conclude that sadly been asked questions I cannot /will not answer I’m now out.

FTFY.

Don’t let the door hit you on your way out and at least be honest about your identity when you next come on to peddle your nonsense.

Probably none if you look at the long term picture.

You are Chuck Palahniuk and I claim my bar of soap

Bye.
Waiting for another long rant though as you seem to like the sound of your own opinion.

****….

Yeh, that just about sums up your argument

Obvious troll was obvious troll. Should have been kicked off earlier.