Apparently, Farage on GB News last night.

Oh, right, well then, who am I to argue with such an unimpeachable source.

Opinion Column in the Guardian on it

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/01/lady-hussey-resign-monarchy-race-remarks-institution

Interesting that it focuses a lot on the bigger picture about social media (which leaked the details of the conversation) and the wider ranging issue that it’s not just one person within the royal household, it’s the royal household as an institution (with an overwhelmingly white staff).

Well that’s the whole point isn’t it? It was a hostile interrogation based on a person’s appearance.

You seem very clued up on what constitutes racism Ernie, so maybe you can help define this question.

I am the last person to ask what constitutes racism, its definition appears to vary massively.

I am certain of two things though, firstly that the touching of a complete stranger’s hair and aggressive questioning concerning where the person comes from is extraordinarily rude.

And secondly that Lady Hussey would not have asked her hostile questions had the person being interrogated been white.

I will let you decide for yourself Lady Hussey’s motive but the unacceptable nature of her behaviour is without doubt.

Anyone else watching question time last night get the impression even the GBeebies presenter was struggling? She was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Either say old people are racist, and piss off the 50% of the audience that are old and majority not racist. Or say old people should be allowed to be racist and piss off the majority of the audience who aren’t racist?

Secondly, from where have you deduced that she “seemingly was packing a device to record the conversation”?

Plus thirdly even if it was a setup (which as you point out seems a tad unlikely) then it should have just provided a rather boring conversation and not the set of questions it did.

Either say old people are racist, and piss off the 50% of the audience that are old and majority not racist. Or say old people should be allowed to be racist and piss off the majority of the audience who aren’t racist?

Is that just using ageism to excuse racism?
“Oh look, she’s an old biddy, we expect her to be racist…”
or
“Well yes she was racist but she’s OLD, what do you expect?!”

??

As per that Guardian article, it’s a shame she just resigned, it would have been a useful teaching opportunity and a way of showing that they wanted to learn from the mistake, not just have her step down and say “that’s the end of that…”

then it should have just provided a rather boring conversation and not the set of questions it did.

Precisely. I have looked at Ngozi Fulani’s website and frankly a lot of what she says is nonsense. Stuff like “back then when black people first arrived here, there was no benefit system”. At the time of postwar immigration from the Caribbean Britain had a welfare state and universal benefit system that was unique in the Western World.

It seems quite obvious to me that Fulani has an axe to grind and is on mission so I am perfectly prepared to accept that she recorded the conversation for her own agenda. That doesn’t make one iota of difference to me though, she didn’t force Hussey to say the things she said.

And I think it is very useful if she did record the conversation as there can be no doubt about the exchange.

Black people arrived in the UK hundreds of years before that 🙂

If a woman’s refuge that was dedicated only to white women, would that be considered racist ?.

#AllLivesMatter

Unless you’re going to argue that all people already get treated equally by society regardless of their sex, gender, race, skin colour, sexual orientation, age, employment, geographical location, social status, etc etc etc then it should be self-apparent that different groups of people may require different forms of support. Is Age Concern ageist? Barnados?

White people in the UK rarely get prejudiced against because they are white, outside of Tommy Robinson’s **** fantasies anyway. I can’t quite believe that this actually requires explaining.

Black people arrived in the UK hundreds of years before that 🙂

Yeah but by “back then” she is talking about the period that her parents came to the UK, not the 17th century.

Ah -so you know her intent do you?  mansplaining?  😉

tjagain

either a fear that violence may be done ie if someone is shouting at you they are going to kill you – thats assault without any touching. Or touching without consent – thats assault.

Most people confuse assault with assault occasioning actual bodily harm

There was no fear of violence and I don’t think that’s the case regarding touching without consent. I read the legal definition and I can’t see why it would be.

Anyway, it’s off topic, just a point of interest.
It was extremely rude behaviour in any case.

When i first moved to Oz i noticed people don’t answer the question. I think in Britain there’s a “How are you?” “I’m fine*, how are you?” interaction. Here it’s often “How are you?” “How are you?” where neither party answers… i find that weird.

We do this here, rhetorical greeting questions. Two Lancashire lads meeting:

“Alright?”
“Owdoo?”

It always used to throw me a little in the US, a country who will never use two words when a paragraph will suffice. Go into a shop and they’ll ask “how are you doing today?” I think, what’s ‘today,’ did something bad happen? Then I wonder whether they actually do want to know about that odd twinge in my ankle that I woke up with this morning. Eventually I conclude it’s just polite smalltalk and answer, “good thanks, you?” then get their life story followed by “hey, where are you from?” and that’s another 15 minutes of my life gone whilst I strive to come up with a place name they’ve heard of. (Spoiler: it’s “Liverpool.” Semi-rural America sure does love the Beatles.)

Unless you’re going to argue that all people already get treated equally by society regardless of their sex, gender, race, skin colour, sexual orientation, age, employment, geographical location, social status, etc etc etc then it should be self-apparent that different groups of people may require different forms of support. Is Age Concern ageist? Barnados?

Im not arguing anything, im just asking a point,, though your answer/post is fair comment.

But can we look towards age concern as an example. Is there two or more types of old age pensioners, though barnardos is maybe not a good example to use, or do they choose one group of children over another.

I don’t think that’s the case regarding touching without consent. I read the legal definition and I can’t see why it would be.

so you don’t think patting someones backside is assault?  Its certainly what i was taught by a professor of law.  touch without consent is assault sexual motive or not

As you say its a distraction from the real topic tho

I see it’s being reported that Hussey (skrew thar Lady balls) was also giving Nazir Afzal a hard time (the tofu eating wokerati lawyer.)

Reported in the Mirror I think.

It was a complete set up…..the woman was wearing traditional African dress and seemingly was packing a device to record the conversation….An absolute non story. She was looking for an opportunity for some publicity.

Yeh, and those women wearing short skirts on a night out, they deserve it too. And paedos and fraudsters caught by sting operations, it wasn’t their fault, if they hadn’t been given the opportunity…..

Is there two or more types of old age pensioners, though barnardos is maybe not a good example to use, or do they choose one group of children over another.

That makes no sense. Is there two or more types of black women? Do you suppose they have a Pantone chart on the admissions desk?

An old-age charity helps old people. A black women’s charity helps black women. Seems fairly straight-forward to me. 🤷‍♂️

tjagain
so you don’t think patting someones backside is assault? Its certainly what i was taught by a professor of law. touch without consent is assault sexual motive or not

I think that example would be indeed sexual assault, all i’m saying is that in the case in the OP post, i don’t think merely moving somebody’s hair is assault. It’s not sexual touching, it’s not violent. But you might be right, and I’m not about to have a ten page argument about it 🙂

Any case it’s extremely rude, i’m honestly very surprised that somebody close to the royals would lack that basic level of respect. Imagine they’d be prim and proper to the point of absurdity.

so you don’t think patting someones backside is assault?

Touching someones hair is extremely long just to see a name badge, and giving someones bum a bit of a rub are two completely different scenarios TJ.

not the 17th century.

Try the 12th Century

https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/proginfo/2016/45/black-british-forgotten-history#:~:text=The%20story%20begins%20in%20the,known%20African%20community%20in%20Britain.

Try the 12th Century

I don’t think that is when her parents came to the UK. But yeah no benefit system then.

Whilst I have no sympathy for Hussey I do struggle with Ms Fulani’s complaint about being asked where she came from. Ms Fulani runs a charity for Black Afro Carribean people. Presumably she wont help anyone from any other background and therefore checks this as part of her programme to deicide who to support. I presume then she wont support anyone in need from the Chinese or Asian communities with the same problems , let alone any one who is as British as she is but has a different skin colour to her.

whitemansplaining?

I’m at the risk of doing some of that myself… but people confused by the hair touching issue need to find a black woman to have a nice chat to about it. Hint… assuming you’re not black, and not a woman… it’s not about how people act towards you and your hair… if you still have any.

Whilst I have no sympathy for Hussey I do struggle with Ms Fulani’s complaint about being asked where she came from.

Have you heard her? Could she sound any more London if she tried?

I spent most of my life in Brizzle, and now live in London. I get comments all the time, I just dont give a ****. She is an old lady who is quite distanced from normal Brits, and quite a lot of people she has met over the years (in her official capacity) are from differing parts of the world I bet, and maybe she assumed. She shouldn’t of, but I would cut her some slack for the fact she is very old, or am I being ageist?

Maybe she could have asked ‘where are your family from?’, my wife is Greek and she gets it a lot, and equally if my parents moved to Kathmandu I bet I would be asked the same.

So do you not need an element of violence to commit assault then?

Sort of, you need either implicit threats or actions of violence, physical acts (this also covers spitting as an example) or the person to believe that someone’s actions may result in violence. That is grounds for suspicion of an offence being committed and could lead to arrest for such.

However, that will then need to be tested and evidence to support a charge, doubtful touching someone without some other form of indication there was malicious intent would get past the CPS ‘likely to secure a prosecution’ threshold. Although if the police felt there was a strong enough case/belief then a caution could be issued. Non-harassment/molestation orders are a seperate kettle of fish.

There could also be the compound effect of Race hate offence being added.

The only offences for (non-sexual) in England:
Common assault (section 39, Criminal Justice Act 1988)
Assault occasioning actual bodily harm (section 47, Offences against the person act 1861)
Unlawful wounding or inflicting grievous bodily harm (section 20, Offences against the person act 1861)
Causing grievous bodily harm with intent to do grievous bodily harm/Wounding with intent to do grievous bodily harm (section 18, Offences against the person act 1861)
Unlawful wounding or inflicting grievous bodily harm (section 20)

Can’t edit for some reason.

I do struggle with Ms Fulani’s complaint about being asked where she came from

Maybe she could have asked ‘where are your family from?

Did either of you read the transcript of the conversation, or just judge the whole story by the headline? It wasn’t just one clumsily worded question.

Presumably she wont help anyone from any other background

That is quite a presumption, I would presume that a charity working in that sector would do their best to help someone from any background, that could of course include working with other similar organisations to find the most suitable support, and that would be a reciprocal arrangement.

She is an old lady who is quite distanced from normal Brits, and quite a lot of people she has met over the years (in her official capacity) are from differing parts of the world I bet

Well that’s the point, you would expect someone who has met many people in her official capacity to understand basic politeness, etiquette, and how to speak in a sensitive and diplomatic manner.

Maybe age is an issue, so why is she still working in a role she isn’t suited for? Only she isn’t anymore. Which seems reasonable.

Did either of you read the transcript of the conversation, or just judge the whole story by the headline? It wasn’t just one clumsily worded question.

Im sure everyone has but it appears that some people, yourself included have decided to include as malicious intent into the questions.

Simply not the case and no amount of virtue signalling is going to change the fact that Mrs Hussey, whose family worked in Africa for decades simply has an interest and was trying to find out where in Africa Mrs Ngozi Fulani’s family came from.

A normal person might well have said ‘Oh I see, you mean my family’s heritage ?, that would be blah blah’, and to which i would suspect old Mrs Hussey would reply along thew lines of ‘family worked there etc etc. and continue on a conversation about Africa and its finery, climate etc etc.

But unfortunately for Mrs Hussey, the woman she was talking to life revolves around race and racism and will take any hint of a question about this subject  as a direct and racial attack.

Mrs Hussey, has no doubt met socially or formally many thousand dignitaries from across the world in her position. I dont think she would have held her position if you displayed a tendency to upset those visitors.

balderdash! and piffle!

Im sure everyone has but it appears that some people, yourself included have decided to include as malicious intent into the questions.

“Some people” includes the Palace which has said “We take this incident extremely seriously and have investigated immediately to establish the full details. In this instance, unacceptable and deeply regrettable remarks have been made.”

They also said, ”the individual concerned would like to express her profound apologies for the hurt caused and has stepped aside from her honorary role with immediate effect.”

Why are you not accepting Hussey’s profound apologies and who apart from you is suggesting that her line of questioning was acceptable and harmless? Nigel Farage?

She has no choice, neither does the palace. And i expect the apology isnt going to be sorry for being racist, but more like sorry i was actually meaning……

balderdash! and piffle!

Absolutely! What makes you so certain that your interpretation of her intentions is the correct one? (or at least spend a few seconds considering whether the people who disagree may just be right?)

i expect the apology isnt going to be sorry for being racist, but more like sorry i was actually meaning……

I expect you’re correct.

I do struggle with Ms Fulani’s complaint about being asked where she came from.

She answered the question truthfully. The answer didn’t appear to be good enough…

No choice because it is pretty damn clear to most reasonable people that Hussey’s line of questioning was totally unacceptable.

Why would the Palace waste their time attempting to defend the indefensible?

And no doubt Hussey herself is genuinely sorry. I have no reason to assume that she is a unrepentant raving racist who can’t be made aware of the insensitivity of her repeated questioning.

I have no reason to assume that she is a unrepentant raving racist who can’t be made aware of the insensitivity of her repeated questioning.

No, of course not…

Farage, on the other hand..

Inappropriate and insensitive questioning which resulted in the opportunity to identify that such exists and a subsequent platform for publicity for a charity which focuses on a specific market.

However, many carry preconceptions and misconceptions which can result in both negative plus positive bias.

dyna ti – did you read the comment piece from the Grauniad?