Shocked to find that about 5 nipples had completely unwound on a wheel I built and have only put a few hundred miles on.

I built it the same way I normally do with a small bit of light oil (I think in this case sewing machine) on the eyelet and spoke threads and tensioned to about 950N on the non-drive side, I think I ended up with about 1100N on the drive side.

Build is 32 spoke with DT 2-1.8-2 spokes, was a rim swap from a HED Belgium C2 to DT Open Pro UST – I switched to new Sapim Polyax doublesquare nipples to account for the different ERD and they appears to fit well with the spoke heads a few MM below the top of the internal spoke driver and not binding.

I was running a 28C tubeless tyre with an innertube at about 80psi.

Any thoughts? Should I up the spoke tension, is it a bad idea to lubricate the spoke threads?

Speaking as a complete noob (two builds in) FWIW, I lube the nipple ball with light oil but use Rock n Roll nipple cream on the threads. Boiled linseed or Stans Powder no doubt just as good as R n R cream, but I would say use one of these rather than oil on the threads. Absolutely loving this wheel building lark though, it’s addictive! Good luck.

If the nipples are unwinding then it does suggest that the tension wasn’t high enough, plus tubeless tyres also put a greater compressive force on the rim meaning that you need to up the tension to compensate:

https://cyclingtips.com/2021/06/why-tubeless-tyres-cause-spoke-tension-drop/

Are the Open Pro eyeletted?

My Pacenti Forza rims are non-eyeletted but still suggest 1300N, suggests that with tight tubeless tyres AND eyelets you should possibly be aiming as high as this at least?

Surprised and disappointed that no one has commented on the typo.

What typo? Some of them are rouge.

Is it just the rouge ones that are unwinding, twisty?

I thought the same as Ned when I saw the pic… Quite an unusual problem if just the ‘rouge’ nipples are unwinding 🙂

But then I realise the OP means Rogue 🙂

I’ve built a number of wheels but there are probably far better wheel builders on here, some thoughts based on past builds…

I’ve had tension loss on my very first couple of builds when I was still learning. Different issues on different builds…. Not enough tension, rogue wrong length spoke (only need one spoke to loosen up and others to follow), not stressing the spokes\wheels enough at the end of the build.

I’ve not had any issues with builds in a long time, I don’t do or use anything unique. But because of my issues with my first couple of builds I always check every spoke is the correct length. Take extra care to stress the spokes near the end of the build. Lube wise I just grease, on both the threads and contact area of the nipple, I’m sure there’s a reason why I should use something else but its worked fine.

Last few builds have required DT Squorx Nipples and Washers, after the initial faff of washers I really liked them as the nipples turned a bit easier when under load, they caused less spoke windup and very minimal stressing required with next to no noises of spokes pinging. Also after a few hundred miles they were still spot on. I did however swap the stock Alloy nips that come with the rims for Brass, not a fan of Alloy nips if I’m honest.

Oh dear, accidental typo.
I’ve built perhaps 10 wheels and this is the first Rogue One.
I did perhaps use less tension than I usually do, will try tensioning it up a bit and see how it goes.

I understand tubeless tyres reduce spoke tension when used tubelessly but I thought this effect would be negated when using a tube 🤔

But, it’s not the first Rogue One – that was available on DVD and Blu-Ray

Did you relieve the stress in the wheel prior to final truing, easy step to miss and could cause you to then have that stress release on the first ride?

Are the 5 nipples in a cluster, what’s the tension on the spokes diametrically opposite, has it increased or decreased?

Was the wheel true in both lateral and radial directions, or could it have been out of true radially?

Yeah I use and old crank arm as a lever between each pair of crossed spoke and then grasp each pair of adjacent drive/nondriveside spoke between my hands, still tend to get a few pings from the wheel on first use but minimal or no change of true after first ride.
They were not in a cluster, don’t remember to reference points to check whether the other spokes went up or down.
The wheel was true in both directions to about +/- 0.3mm, more scrutiny on the roundness than the lateral, which was a relative lazy job for me, normally I do it to +/- 0.1mm, I’m a very slow and inefficient wheel builder. I’ve got a dial gauge I use right at the end – would like to use it more throughout the build but yet to work out how I can get/make a rotating wheel to use as the measuring interface.

But, it’s not the first Rogue One – that was available on DVD and Blu-Ray

That one was deliberate 🙂

Nothing wrong with lubing nipples. It eases building and has no detrimental effect.

If nipples are coming loose, it’s due to insufficient tension across the wheel, or not being evenly tensioned so individual spokes might be noticeable below average.

This can be poor build quality or lack of stress relieving during building.

You mention some figures in the original post. How are these measured and have you calibrated your tensiometer against a known good wheel?

They can be a useful tool for measuring relative tension but I’ve found them generally poor at measuring absolute tension.

I understand tubeless tyres reduce spoke tension when used tubelessly but I thought this effect would be negated when using a tube

Yeah I had understood it is because the air pressure is distributed across more of the rim bed when run tubeless, using tubes exerts slightly more of the force sideways. Tubes in a tubeless tyre therefore shouldn’t reduce tension any more than ‘normal’.

Re: stress relief, I’m still not sure I get this. I’ve built a good few sets of wheels and given them all a pasting. Only stress relief I give them throughout build is to apply pressure top and bottom at various points around the rim and giving parallel spokes as tight a squeeze as I can with a dishtowel wrapped around my hands. Old cranks bending and twisting spokes just sounds brutal! I reckon if you lube nipple/use spoke washers and apply tension gradually then it isn’t as essential.

Its tubeless tyre beads when seated that normally cause a tension drop, not the air pressure

Re stress relieving, I’ve never gone for the hammering, cranking, standing on it approach either. Just apply a squeeze on one side so that if there’s any spoke wind up on the other side, it can find its neutral.

BTW, added a turn of tension to the spokes and the wheel has been working great and holding true even after some fairly rough use.

The old crank arm is just a handy way to relieve the crossed spokes without them digging into thumbs and hands.

I always follow the Ali Clarkson technique and stand on the spokes to stress them and I’ve never had to touch a wheel once built.

Yeah, I ‘walk’ around the edge of the rim, feet on opposing sides, with the hub rested on a towel/rag to protect it/the floor! Lots of creaking and popping goes on (I’m 110kgs)… then I re-check tensions and re-true if needed.

It feels very brutal when doing it.
Never had a spoke unwind. Had a couple snap, but not when recently built.

I do use normal spoke prep though. Not oil.

As a newbie wheelbuilder I’m finding the Park app really helpful to get even tension across all spokes. Also learning to pay attention to the % variance on each side of a dished wheel. Built a couple with too wide a variance and managed to pull the two sides closer together.