Hi,

My rear road wheel needs a new rim. The pesky rim brakes have worn it out.

The new rim has unexpectedly arrived with a packet of alloy spike nipples and washers.

The bike gets ridden to work most days. 1/4 the current alloy spoke nipples were seized or rounded, now I’ve tried to remove the spokes about half the nipples have smashed.

The question is… Used the supplied alloy nipples or get some brass ones?

Is the answer is brass, should I use the alloy washers?

Cheers
Martin

I’d opt brass, those being the preferred choice of wheelbuilders(as conveyed to me by the wheel builder). Also alloy washers might corrode being tucked in the rim and out of sight

Brass. Commuting to work through the winter is a pretty good recipe for corrosion of alloy nipples.

The Wheelpro man also says brass IIRC.

Brass all day. Plated steel washers for the same reason.

Depends on the alloy nipples 😉

Sapim make their nipples out of a harder alloy and also claim that they are coated to prevent seizing.

I built my wheels with Sapim nipples and HM washers (used the washers in the mistaken belief that they re-enforced the rim, I think in fact they are designed to provide a smoother surface to tighten the nipple against, allowing you to tighten it tighter without any of those horrible noises!). I also apply copper grease to the threads which is a little superstition of mine and makes the first stage of the build a little messy but you can clean excess off before proceeding to tension spokes.

I’ve ridden a year now of gravel and very muddy CX, so admittedly they probably didn’t see much salty road action, but they did get hosed off after every ride.

Recently had to re-rim the front and all nipples backed off smoothly and rebuilt equally smoothly (again, having applied copper grease to spoke threads).

TLDR? Buy quality alloy nipples.

Aluminium? Never. Alloy? Probably not. Hope that helps!

Brass for me, especially for a commuter. If I had a fancy bike that only came out on sunny days, then got washed afterwards (which I don’t) then I just might consider alloy nipples for a very brief moment before coming to my senses.

My Sapim Polyax Alloy nipples have been on the commuter for a year and have just been placed on the wheel stand to give them a check. All the nipples seemed to move easily. In the event that once doesn’t, you can always crush the nipple off and just add a new nipple. 70g saved. 🙂

They are DT Swiss rims with silver, very light weight, alloy nipples. Are they particularly strong?

I’ll get some brass ones, thanks!

Only brass.

Because alloy in commuter tend to end up like that:

Cheers!
I.

You do need to use the phr washers.
The nipples they come with are the nipples that all the dt factory wheels get built with.
I use black squorx prolocks though for color preference. Brass is always an option and I don’t commute so no idea how constant wet and road grime play into it.

Brass always, the weight saving benefits of alloy are minimal and I can’t think of any wheel I’ve built/owned where I wanted to increase the probability of a failure…

The newer sapim ones are a bit better than standard alu nipples but still a distant second place to brass. Absolute no brainer for a commuter imo.

IME brass unless you enjoy replacing nipples and spokes regularly. If you do go for alloy, then spray them with ACF50 anti-corrosion spray.

Aluminium? Never. Alloy? Probably not. Hope that helps!

surely we need to be talking about “alu” not “alloy” here?

Brass is an alloy.

Whatever grade of aluminium alloy they use for nips is an alloy.

So Brass and aluminium/ alu / ali when we’re talking nips?

Absolutely brass

it’s not just commuters that end in sorrow with alu nipples, my MTB race wheels have needed full rebuilds after a couple of years on alu nipples.

All the nipples seemed to move easily.

Mine moved very easily after they split due to corrosion! That was on my best road bike so hadn’t had the sort of treatment you’d subject a commuter to.

Brass. Especially on commuting wheels.

Pretty much what everyone else says – Brass.
Less prone to corrosion and also self lubricating to a certain extent.

1 year isn’t enough the for me to establish that corrosion isn’t an issue. 70gm isn’t worth the risk to me either, and I like light stuff! (without faff).

Brass as it corrodes less with our salty winter roads. Would go alloy if I was building a set for purely alpine summer rides.

Where there’s much there(should be)brass

Some wheelbuilders speak 😉

https://dcrwheels.co.uk/custom-wheelsets/sils-alloy-nipples/

“Sapim confident they will outlast brass”

https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/products/sapim-alloy-polyax-nipples-14mm

“Failures as rare as spoke failures”

Admittedly, at least one of them advocates the use of spoke prep as well, but I’ve been doing that for years anyway, brass or alloy.

Edit: have committed the cardinal sin of not really reading OP’s post. For daily winter commuting I would probably still use brass, for peace of mind if nothing else.

Sapim confident they will outlast brass

Sorry, that’s the manufacturer talking, it’s just marketing. Also your other source says aluminium nipples have less wind up (presumably than brass) that’s a joke, can’t take him seriously.

Both professional wheelbuilders who offer extended (CycleClinic anyway) warranties on their builds, I know who I’d trust. Also a manufacturer who’s stock and trade is spokes and nipples, they’re hardly going to bullshit something like this, they would get called out by hoardes of angry wheelbuilders with pictures like IvanMTB’s within a year!

Also your other source says aluminium nipples have less wind up (presumably than brass) that’s a joke, can’t take him seriously.

Why would you doubt his word? He’s a professional who makes his living (and reputation) doing this. What is it about coated aluminium nipples which makes you so sure they would wind up any more or less than any other nipple?

Have built 2 sets of wheels now with Sapim alu nipples to the highest tension recommended by the manufacturers with zero wind-up (at least, as evidence by lack of tinkling when I de-stress wheel, it’s actually disappointing to take wheel out of stand and apply pressure on rim only to be rewarded with zero tinkles, it’s like trying to crack knuckles and getting no crack).

Brass nipples on the way!

Next question, to grease or oil the threads on the spokes when building with brass

Both professional wheelbuilders who offer extended (CycleClinic anyway) warranties on their builds,

How long and would it cover corrosion and seizing of nipples? It can take more than a year

they’re hardly going to bullshit something like this

People selling stuff aren’t exactly known for being accurate or candid about stuff like this in my experience.

What is it about coated aluminium nipples which makes you so sure they would wind up any more or less than any other nipple?

As I understand it, brass is self lubricating, aluminium (and it’s oxide anodising) isn’t. The tension I build to always sees (lubricated) brass nipples wind up, it’s just not credible to me that aluminium ones wouldn’t (I unwind them in a different/additional way to you tho)

People selling stuff aren’t exactly known for being accurate or candid about stuff like this in my experience.

Yep agreed, but I tend to apply a ‘how fundamental is it to their business’ and ‘how easily would they get called out on it’ filter to any possible B.S.

I’ll admit that Sapim’s wording ‘we are confident’ sets off my trigger a little bit, that’s exactly the sort of wording I use when I can’t prove something with cold hard facts!

I choose to believe it anyway, I have an Italian flag pattern spoke nipple arrangement planned that somewhat depends on using aluminium nipples…

Only aluminium alloy nipples on fancy lightweight wheels, if you care about weight, AND only if you wash it after every ride in winter. Everything else brass.

Sorry, that’s the manufacturer talking, it’s just marketing.

Manufacturers don’t always just make shit up completely at random. They’d soon lose any reputation if they did that. In my experience there is usually some truth to what they say, but they may inflate that truth. You do have to read between the lines, but that’s not the same as just dismissing everything they say out of hand.

I’ve had long lived wheels with Sapim alloy nipples, so I’d consider taking a punt on those claims. Ok so it’s a bit of a fiddle to replace them if they do start failing but it’s not that hard.

Just did a search to see if I can buy these nipples and I found this on JRA – an independent and well regarded builder:

Sapim spoke nipples are used in all our wheels. The aluminium nipples are extremely strong and resistant to corrosion, and we are happy to recommend them in almost all wheels. Brass spoke nipples are recommended when wheels are neglected and ridden through the winter on salty roads without regular cleaning.

Anyone had JRA wheels and alloy nipples?

I don’t think we are far apart @molgrips, I’m just not taking what anyone selling a product says at face value. You can’t read between the lines because the answer could be anywhere between “100% true” and “100% lies” (see VW diesels…).

The pita that I have found aluminium nipples to be (both on my own wheels and as fixing them working for lbs) means the 70gm isn’t worth the risk, not even on a summer (in Scotland) wheelset.

Manufacturers don’t always just make shit up completely at random.

Yes, but saying aluminium will outlast brass is clearly bobbins. You can fetch a bit of brass up from the seabed from an 18th century shipwreck and it’ll clean up. Aluminium nipples might last “long enough” for the life of a wheel in some circumstances but they won’t outlast brass ones.

see VW diesels

I knew someone would bring that up but it had a specific context that I don’t think applies to all other such claims.

I’m also wary of treating all alloy nipples the same when different alloys of aluminium are clearly pretty different. It would not make sense to expect them all to behave the same way.

Regarding oil – I build with brass nipples and use raw linseed oil. It sort of sets over time and mostly stays in place so the nipple turns when needed for truing. I say mostly because a few nipples still end up a bit squeaky and difficult to adjust.

I knew someone would bring that up but it had a specific context that I don’t think applies to all other such claims.

It’s still an outright lie told to sell stuff. Been happening since the beginning of time. Not everyone does it but as you concede many are economic with the truth.

@greyspoke

Regarding oil – I build with brass nipples and use raw linseed oil

Thanks! Can I use any old linseed oil? As in I’m sure I’ve got some for window related reasons. Possibly oozing out of some old linseed putty, is that the same?

VW was something they thought they could get away with based on the obfuscated nature of tailpipe emissions and the fact there are usually a wide variety of legitimate reasons for the test numbers not matching the quoted figures at any given time. VW cars are sold for many reasons, emissions is not one of them, at least it wasn’t.

Sapim on the other hand only make spokes and nipples. They’ve made a categorical claim about 50% of their product range – alloy ones won’t corrode – and it would be very obvious if they turned out to be lying.

I had two sets of wheels built with Sapim Laser spokes – I don’t remember speccing nipples but I assume they came with the alu ones. They appeared to be alu coloured, and I probably would have specced them if asked. Both were absolutely fine. One did not get much use, the other was my main MTB for a decade or so. I say fine – the wheels were a bit flexible in proper rough stuff, but then lots of stuff was back in those days.

So on that basis, and the fact I can swap nipples without too much bother – I’m in.

Can you re-use brass nipples? If so, for how many builds?

Can you re-use brass nipples? If so, for how many builds?

When I posted my earlier reply I was pondering what my earliest brass nipples were. Probably from my first proper MTB from 1991. I’ll always strip a wheel before scrapping it so have brass nipples that have been used several times. Never had one fail

About 10 years ago I built my first wheelset with blue aluminium nipples. 2 years in the rear I noticed a nipple had cracked. I check the rest and found most had cracked. I then replaced them with brass. The front however has been and continues to be fine.

All the nipples were bought at the same time so I’m assuming they’re the same batch. Obviously the wheels have been through the same conditions, maybe the rear has had a bit more loading on it.

Every other wheel since has been on brass nipples.