Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 93 total)
  • What’s your take on the protests ( sheer number of people in one place)
  • Premier Icon DezB
    Full Member

    If we know one thing is that nhs is very good at treating all of its staff like shit

    Well, there’s something I can agree with

    Premier Icon inkster
    Free Member

    Frank and DezB,

    Why are you calling me put on what experiences I’ve had regards police racism and demanding what protests I’ve been on and why?

    I was merely pointing out the discrepancies between those who have posted about how they understand what’s happening in the US yet they seem to have a different set of values when it comes to discussing protests in the UK.

    This thread pitches right to protest against threat to public safety during a pandemic. Systemic racism is a constant threat to public safety if you are black. Coronavirus will (hopefully) recede and we’ll get back to some kind of normal. For some people any kind of normal means putting up with living in a racist society.

    Protesters putting themselves and others at risk are being wilfully irresponsible because they know that by doing so they are emphasising that racism is a greater existential threat than coronavirus.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Full Member

    Wow, Cougar! Only BAME are breaching the guidelines…

    Srsly?

    And you have no awareness of any other explanation?

    I wondered how long it’d take for someone to cherry-pick what I posted and come to that conclusion or similar. I did specifically say Asian lads in their 20s, I wonder why you didn’t call me out for being sexist or ageist too? Missed opportunity there mate, a solid 7/10 for effort though.

    Of course that’s neither what I said nor what I meant. I’m simply relaying, anecdotally and I would hope without prejudice, what I’m seeing here with my own eyes when I venture outside. I can take photos if you don’t believe me.

    Premier Icon forzafkawi
    Free Member

    The BAME problem with covid-19 is hardly rocket science. Dark skin in Northern latitudes means even less sun/vitamin D than the white population. Look at how the Somalis in Sweden are suffering too. But of course, it’s so easy to blame depravation and prejudice.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Full Member

    Now THAT’S science.

    Premier Icon mattvanders
    Free Member

    So a few weeks ago on a biking FB page someone was promoting a protest march against the lockdown itself organised by right wing group claim the government was taking away their human right of freedom. Please to see that everyone including me ripped into them from the many different angles of covid spread to there isn’t any freedom having been removed without a just cause etc.

    The amount of people that have flocked to beaches and parks over the last few weeks while not abiding to social distancing rules has been ridiculous. The street parties for VE that all started from a distance but as soon as a bit of alcohol was consumed everyone is crowded and mingling with each other are just as stupid and likely help to spread it.

    The protesters (regards of what you view point) full in to the same category of other idiots putting themselves, their families and the wider society at risk. What has actually changed that means the restrictions can change? Nothing, no cure has been devolved as of yet, it just the hospitals has space for you if the worst happens.

    Premier Icon inkster
    Free Member

    So the people who protest about systemic racial injustice fall into the same category of idiots as people who protest their right to go to the beach and have a piss up.

    Gotcha.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Full Member

    So the people who protest about systemic racial injustice fall into the same category of idiots as people who protest their right to go to the beach and have a piss up.

    Whilst I take your point, would it really make a vast amount of difference to the protesters if they chose to protest against “centuries of injustice” in August rather than June?

    You’re equally putting yourself at risk whether it’s for a noble and vitally important cause or because you fancy a beer with your mates. And if, as is believed, the demographics doing the protesting are at a much higher risk from CV19 then it’s even more reckless.

    How often have we said on here, it’s no good being right when you’re dead.

    Premier Icon mattvanders
    Free Member

    Inkstar – you have clearly taken my words and twisted them to suit your view point. In non lockdown situation I would fully support the legal protest and free speech against racism and the despicable treatment that has been used against bame people. At this current moment in time I don’t think it’s safe to be in large groups what ever the reasoning.

    Premier Icon akeys001
    Free Member

    I suspect the protestors broadly agree with this (quote from twitter)

    You can be pissed off at people flocking to the seaside & ok with those demonstrating against a horrifying injustice. Risking your life to paddle is not the same as risking your life to take a stand against someone unjustly losing theirs.

    But of course YMMV

    Premier Icon stevious
    Full Member

    @cougar – I don’t think it’s OK for you to call me a moron rather than ask me to explain further. You clearly haven’t thought very much about this.

    Of course the virus isn’t racist, and it’s vanishingly unlikely that there could be a genetic racial component to its effects. (How to Argue With a Racist by Adam Rutherford has some excellent thoughts on genetics and race – a bit too much to get int in detail here though). It is far more likely that the causes are socio-economic, although I do recognise that this won’t be known for quite some time. Either way, I can certainly understand why those protesting might see their increased COVID risk as yet another product of a racially biased system.

    As for your personal field study, I can see how that has led you to your conclusion. I don’t think that your data support your conclusion though, and I think that your sampling technique may be susceptible to bias.

    Anyway, I’m off away from this thread now. Kudos to those of you here who have kept it thoughtful and constructive.

    Premier Icon inkster
    Free Member

    Cougar,

    Would it make a vast amount of difference if the protesters postponed their protest till August?

    No. The difference wouldn’t be vast, it would be seismic.

    It would not get the exposure it is getting now and it would be said: ‘Why are you bringing this up now? It happened months ago.’

    The protesters have made a calculated risk, weighing up the risk from coronavirus against the risk of missing the best opportunity to bring public awareness to racial injustice that has presented itself in a generation.

    Premier Icon inkster
    Free Member

    Mattvanders,

    How can I twist your words when you repeat them?

    Saying you would fully support legal protest and free speech against racism in a non lockdown situation is no different to saying that you would not fully support protest and free speech against racism in a lockdown situation.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Full Member

    @cougar – I don’t think it’s OK for you to call me a moron rather than ask me to explain further. You clearly haven’t thought very much about this.

    I wasn’t calling you anything, I was referring to the people (of all demographics) who are wilfully ignoring advice during a global pandemic which has so far killed six and a half million people and counting.

    No. The difference wouldn’t be vast, it would be seismic.

    It was a genuine question I was asking, I should have been clearer about that. Sorry.

    Premier Icon anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    Wow, just had a read of this thread, some staggeringly simplistic bobbins spouted along with some borderline outright racism, but this bit really stood out as quite unbelievably stupid and quite worrying in terms of attempting to shut down valid debate

    As an aside, do you have any direct experience of UK police behaviour?
    If you have, your words have some value; if not….

    Premier Icon boomerlives
    Free Member

    Saying you would fully support legal protest and free speech against racism in a non lockdown situation is no different to saying that you would not fully support protest and free speech against racism in a lockdown situation.

    I think you are confusing lockdown with being a political act, not a public health one.

    Premier Icon oldtennisshoes
    Full Member

    I’m simply relaying, anecdotally and I would hope without prejudice, what I’m seeing here with my own eyes when I venture outside. I can take photos if you don’t believe me.

    There is a smidgen of disapproval in your tone I think you’d agree?

    Premier Icon IHN
    Full Member

    Maybe, just maybe, they’re really, really, really angry at centuries of systemic racism and police (i.e. state) brutality, with the fact that they are literally in fear for their lives in any interaction with the police, and it has now got to the point where that fear and anger has boiled over.

    How rationally do you act when you’re in a state of massive fear and anger?

    Premier Icon BillMC
    Full Member

    I’ve been following the Covid issue in Botswana, they’ve been very successful, it puts another angle on the ‘racial’ element.
    Last night I was getting on the phone all the de-legitimise the protests stuff: agitators behind it, protesters are pawns of higher powers, they’re attacking the Cenotaph, ex-military rough sleepers just want handouts (from someone on a private income and married to a military man), a few rotten apples. Gah. Middle England.

    Premier Icon poly
    Free Member

    The BAME problem with covid-19 is hardly rocket science. Dark skin in Northern latitudes means even less sun/vitamin D than the white population. Look at how the Somalis in Sweden are suffering too. But of course, it’s so easy to blame depravation and prejudice.

    I’ve heard that hypothesis since the early days of Covid. Its a nice idea, but as yet I don’t believe anyone has shown a correlation between severity and Vit D. Oddly its not particularly hard to measure and actually has something that could be actionable – whilst the govt advice is for us all to take more Vit D anyway thats low profile.

    The assumption in the statement about Somalis in Sweden suggest that there is no depravation or prejudice toward black people in Sweden. An interesting reference point would be the initial data in Scotland – which suggested we weren’t seeing the same ethnic effect here. Now I’m not niave enough to think we don’t have blatant and background racism in Scotland. But we also get less sunlight so should have even less Vit D, and have areas where there is very high depravation even amongst pasty white people who trace their ancestry to MacDonalds and Camerons.

    Premier Icon anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    The BAME problem with covid-19 is hardly rocket science. Dark skin in Northern latitudes means even less sun/vitamin D than the white population. Look at how the Somalis in Sweden are suffering too. But of course, it’s so easy to blame depravation and prejudice.

    Care to explain the causality?

    Premier Icon anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    Come on its not rocket science

    Premier Icon forzafkawi
    Free Member

    Care to explain the causality?

    Plenty of research and references online from eminent doctors and scientists if you care to look regarding a) Vitamin D deficiency effect on the immune system b) Vitamin D deficiency on all populations due to lack of sun exposure.

    Point B is exacerbated by people of colour living in Northern latitudes as malatonin in their skin cuts down vitamin D absorption from the sun.

    Dr Robert Heaney is a good source as is Dr Michael Holick. Several good videos on YouTube have been taken down in recent weeks due to the Covid Stasi there seemingly objecting to even doctors posting about combating covid-19 with vitamin D. I’m not a conspiracy theorist but I’m not sure why this should be as vitamin D deficiency is the underlying pandemic which is adversely affecting EVERY ethnic group.

    The vitamin D deficiency issue could also be another factor why old people in care homes are being adversely affected. It’s not just because they are old. They’re shut away indoors and receive no vitamin D supplementation. You virtually get no vitamin D from your diet unless you eat very specific foods and even then you need to eat a lot of them.

    I would seriously urge everyone to look into vitamin D deficiency because for at least 4 months of the year in Winter in this country you will get no vitamin D from the sun even if you sunbathed for the whole day. The sun is just too low in the sky. Another reason why any sort of virus including influenza, seems to attack the population in Winter.

    Premier Icon anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    Sorry I dont want to find it myself, I wanted you to point me at the causal evidence.

    Premier Icon forzafkawi
    Free Member

    Come on its not rocket science

    A poor choice of words on my part, it’s a lot more complicated than just putting a rocket into space. The cure is VERY simple though, everyone just take 5000 IU vitamin D3 per day plus 100 mcg vitamin K2.

    I’m sure in decades to come historians will look upon this period of history as the medical (and nutritional) dark ages where profit was more important than health.

    Premier Icon forzafkawi
    Free Member

    Sorry I dont want to find it myself, I wanted you to point me at the causal evidence.

    Watch these if you can be arsed.

    a global pandemic which has so far killed six and a half million people and counting.

    Has it?

    Premier Icon anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    I watched a few mins of each before I got bored, still not seeing any evidence of a causal relationship between covid and vit d.

    Premier Icon forzafkawi
    Free Member

    I watched a few mins of each before I got bored, still not seeing any evidence of a causal relationship between covid and vit d.

    I wonder why?

    Premier Icon colonelwax
    Free Member

    Oxford University review of Vitamin D evidence

    VERDICT
    We found no clinical evidence on vitamin D in COVID-19. There was no evidence related to vitamin D deficiency predisposing to COVID-19, nor were there studies of supplementation for preventing or treating COVID-19.

    There is some evidence that daily vitamin D3 supplementation over weeks to months may prevent other acute respiratory infections, particularly in people with low or very low vitamin D status. This evidence has limitations, including heterogeneity in study populations, interventions, and definitions of respiratory infections that include upper and lower respiratory tract involvement.

    The current advice is that the whole population of the UK should take vitamin D supplements to prevent vitamin D deficiency. This advice applies irrespective of any possible link with respiratory infection.

    Clinicians should treat patients with vitamin D deficiency irrespective of any link with respiratory infection.

    Policymakers should attend to public health measures to ensure the population has adequate vitamin D intake.

    No link to Covid19 but taking Vit D is a good thing?

    Premier Icon anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    No link to Covid19 but taking Vit D is a good thing?

    Wouldn’t be a vitamin if it wasnt worth having would it!

    I wonder why?

    Because there is no evidence of a causal relationship I imagine

    Premier Icon forzafkawi
    Free Member

    No link to Covid19 but taking Vit D is a good thing?

    There is no money to be made from vitamin D which is why there are very few definitive studies being done. Mostly it is anecdotal evidence which is emerging but if you watch particularly the Dr Robert Heaney video I linked to the evidence is pretty compelling, not just in terms of covid-19 but for all causes of mortality.

    There is growing evidence that a lot of coronary heart disease is as a result of calcium deposits in the arteries which vitamin D3 in conjunction with vitamin K2 can reverse. Many doctors dealing with covid-19 are mystified as to why so many patients are dying from organ failure including heart attacks as opposed to pneumonia as would be expected. I think the situation with covid-19 is more complicated than just vitamin D boosting the immune system to fight the disease directly.

    Vitamin D deficiency can take several months (depending on dosage) to build up the 25(OH)D3 level in the blood sufficiently to reverse a lot of the health problems caused by the deficiency. Even a large part of the medical profession do not understand the optimum blood serum levels of vitamin D necessary to combat a lot of the health conditions.

    The problem with designing a randomised control trial for covid-19 and vitamin D is that you would have to identify two groups of individuals who have not had the virus and supplement one group whilst giving the other a placebo and then tracking the covid-19 outcome in the whole group when infected allowing for all other co-morbidity factors. Near impossible I would say.

    Premier Icon forzafkawi
    Free Member

    Because there is no evidence of a causal relationship I imagine

    No, it’s because of your refusal to see it. You haven’t got an X-Box by any chance have you?

    Premier Icon anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    Because there is no evidence of a causal relationship I imagine

    No, it’s because of your refusal to see it

    Show me the evidence then.

    Oxford University review of Vitamin D evidence

    VERDICT
    We found no clinical evidence on vitamin D in COVID-19. There was no evidence related to vitamin D deficiency predisposing to COVID-19, nor were there studies of supplementation for preventing or treating COVID-19.

    Premier Icon outofbreath
    Free Member

    Vit D. There’s *massive* correlation:

    https://youtu.be/GCSXNGc7pfs?t=942 (He cites the original research so you can check.)

    What’s the downside of preventing yourself from being Vid D deficient? Vit D is cheap, or free.

    Premier Icon TerryWrist
    Free Member

    Vit D. There’s *massive* correlation:

    University of Oxford review of the evidence says there isn’t. Bloke on the internet citing YouTube says there is.

    Who to believe?

    Premier Icon TerryWrist
    Free Member

    Anyway, moving away from the point of the thread really

    Premier Icon outofbreath
    Free Member

    The problem with designing a randomised control trial for covid-19 and vitamin D is that you would have to identify two groups of individuals who have not had the virus and supplement one group whilst giving the other a placebo and then tracking the covid-19 outcome in the whole group when infected allowing for all other co-morbidity factors. Near impossible I would say.

    True, but there have been studies into Vitamin D deficiency and infectious respiratory disease in general and it was found to be a factor:

    It’s quite a punt with people’s lives to rule out a cheap/free action that has no downside and has been shown to reduce ARIs from 60pc to 30pc.

    Premier Icon outofbreath
    Free Member

    University of Oxford review of the evidence says there isn’t. Bloke on the internet citing YouTube says there is.

    Who to believe?

    (He cites the original research so you can check.)

    https://tilda.tcd.ie/publications/reports/pdf/Report_Covid19VitaminD.pdf

    “Therefore, maintaining a sufficient vitamin D status in the adults is beneficial in prevention
    of ARI and may therefore be of benefit in the COVID-19 pandemic.”

    It’s going to be years before we have a properly published article specific to COVID-19. In the meantime why wouldn’t something that prevents ARI prevent be of benefit in the COVID-19 pandemic? ..and what’s the downside of taking a free, risk free action? FFS, even if it doesn’t help prevent COVID-19 it will *definitely* reduce the chance of other ARIs!

    If 80pc of Black people in the USA are Vit D deficient why on Earth wouldn’t you want them to have less Acute Infectious Respiratory disease? What about the 40pc of White people who are Vit D deficient? Should they get more Vit D or not?

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