What value has a human life ?

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  • What value has a human life ?
  • deadlydarcy
    Member

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    Premier Icon Stoner
    Subscriber

    What value has a human life

    well since it’s a fine, not a compensation payment then it’s not really a “valuation” of human life is it?

    We could go round picking all the fines levied for all the deaths that shouldn’t have happened if you like?

    Junkyard
    Member

    you certainly nailed the central issue there stoner 🙄

    Premier Icon Stoner
    Subscriber

    I rather think I did. If Ernie wants an argument about the value of a human life by quoting a story with two financial figures in then at least have the discussion about the difference between whether a fine is a compensatory thing or a punitive thing?

    The HSE goes with punitive.

    The most recent – and potentially the most significant – development was the publication in February 2010 by the Sentencing Guidelines Council (SGC) of a “definitive guideline” on setting a penalty for convictions for corporate manslaughter and health and safety offences that are a significant cause of death.

    The guideline applies to all sentences handed down from 15 February 2010 and states that fines should not normally fall below £500,000 for corporate manslaughter and £100,000 for health and safety offences that are a significant cause of death.

    The guideline sets out a 10-stage process for courts to follow when deciding on a penalty and aggravating and mitigating factors that must be taken into account. We have recently reviewed the guideline, so will not look at its requirements in detail again (HSB 387 p.18).

    http://www.healthandsafetyatwork.com/hsw/hsb-deterrence

    cynic-al
    Member

    Yup.

    Stupid thread.

    trailmonkey
    Member

    Yup.

    Stupid thread.

    ffs if you can come up with a better segway to a little saturday morning handwringing then i think we’d all like to hear it.

    Premier Icon Stoner
    Subscriber

    EDIT in fact the Sentencing Guidelines Council are absolutely clear about what a fine is:

    3. Fines cannot and do not attempt to value a human life in money. Civil
    compensation will be payable separately. The fine is designed to punish the
    defendant and is therefore tailored not only to what it has done but also to its
    individual circumstance

    http://sentencingcouncil.judiciary.gov.uk/docs/web__guideline_on_corporate_manslaughter_accessible.pdf

    Which sets up nicely: “what level of fine (or sanction) is sufficient to act in the interests of [justice, deterrence and punishment]*”

    * from the HSW article.

    …..It’s all gone quiet in the Peoples Socialist Republic of Croydon, comrades……

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    well since it’s a fine, not a compensation payment then it’s not really a “valuation” of human life is it?

    Thanks for pointing that out Stoner – it makes me feel a whole lot better.

    The reason I am aware of this case is because Noel Corbin was a local lad from the New Addington estate in Croydon. For those who don’t know, New Addington is a vast neglected estate and unemployment hotspot. It has a below average life expectancy and the Fieldway ward has the lowest average income of any London ward.

    It shows just how of touch judges and coroners are when St Pancras coroner Dr Andrew Reid asked HSE inspector Mark Shearon: “Isn’t there a responsibility on the employee? You say you would have walked away?”.

    Clearly Dr Andrew Reid doesn’t understand how important it is for a young black man living on the New Addington estate not to get himself the sack by walking away from a job.

    It also shows how Cameron’s “For too long we’ve taken a too soft attitude towards people that loot and pillage their own community” tough stance, doesn’t extend to those who shirk their responsibility to employees.

    If Noel Corbin had walked away, lived, made himself unemployed, and looted Croydon the other day, he would have faced the full force of the law. But Tony Smith on the other hand lives a free man, carrying on in business and without even a suspended sentence. That’s the sort of society we live in, destroying property is more serious than destroying lives. How terribly Tory.

    Junkyard
    Member

    If Ernie wants an argument about the value of ahuman life by quoting a story with two financial figures

    there are three Do you mean the ones just relating to the company?

    in then at least have the discussion about the different between whether a fine is a compensatory thing or a punitive thing?

    I think he may be making the point that someone whose actions resulted in the loss of a life was fined £1 whilst someone who robbed a bottle worth £3.50 gets a prison term. I think most people , perhaps even you, would value the loss of life as the greater wrong. The penalty for the life seem far less than the penalty for stealing water hence it appears that courts value this [life] as less

    Value here does not just mean financial value but it is, perhaps, unsurprising this is the only thing you value 😉

    i would assume he is also suggesting it is unfair the owner went into voulntary liquidation but is still trading under another legal name which raises the suspicion that this happened to minimise his liability.
    you know all this but just want to discuss the “real” issue he raised eh.
    EDIT: ernie posted 15 secs before me so sorry for appearing to answer for him.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    CaptainFlashheart – Member

    …..It’s all gone quiet in the Peoples Socialist Republic of Croydon, comrades……

    Hohoho…….another hilarious input by the intellectually challenged Flashheart.

    trailmonkey
    Member

    It’s all gone quiet in the Peoples Socialist Republic of Croydon, comrades

    i think you mean the People‘s Socialist Republic of Croydon

    for the forum’s biggest grammar snob, you have an uncanny knack of getting things hopelessly wrong yourself.

    Premier Icon Stoner
    Subscriber

    so a corporate entity that already has a negative value should be fined more so that its worth even less and makes no difference to whether the fine will be paid or not, the company penalised or not, or the directors f***ed or not? That makes loads of sense. Sue the arse off the directors if you want to make an impact. Fining a dead company wont do anything.

    Ernie – you start a thread called “what value has a human life”, then quote a £1 fine. If you actually want to talk about the social environment that lead to a local lad not being able to walk away from an unsafe job, then start a thread about it or at least put it in the OP. We’re not clairvoyants.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    £1 apparently.

    http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/investigations/2011/08/work-death-families-wait-up-to.html

    “It’s taken over three years to prosecute satellite TV installers Foxtel after Noel fell over 13m to his death.

    The company pleaded guilty to health and safety breaches but, as it went into voluntary liquidation last month owing £109,000, was last week fined just £1.

    Meanwhile, Foxtel boss Tony Smith, 47, from Brentwood, Essex, is still trading as http://www.foxtel.ltd.uk.”

    Tony Smith is lucky that he wasn’t found responsible for something as serious as stealing £3.50 worth of water from Lidl.

    cranberry
    Member

    I hesitate to quote from a paper that only exists to make The Sun look like a bastion of good journalism, but…

    The Old Bailey heard that Foxtel didn’t ask 29-year-old Noel for references or training certificates and didn’t supervise any of his first jobs to check he knew what he was doing.

    Does this mean that Noel had no certificates/references ? Does it mean that he claimed to and was taken at his word ?

    nonk
    Member

    depends who it is no?

    i mean take elfin for example…

    Premier Icon Stoner
    Subscriber

    Does it mean that he claimed to and was taken at his word ?

    if it says he wasnt asked for them then I assume he didnt claim to have them either.

    project
    Member

    Probably the company would be covered by public and emplores liability insurance so that will eventualy pay out for the death of the poor chap.

    Zulu-Eleven
    Member

    Why did you feel the need to mention his colour Ernie?

    None of the news articles seem to have though it worthy of mention!

    Should it make any difference to the seriousness of the case?

    would losing their job, or indeed their life be any less important for a “young white man living on the New Addington estate”

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    Zulu-Eleven – Member

    Why did you feel the need to mention his colour Ernie?

    None of the news articles seem to have though it worthy of mention!

    It’s pretty obvious why I mentioned his colour……it’s because I think it’s significant.

    The link also didn’t mention that he came from the New Addington estate, but I did……because I think it’s significant. As is the levels of unemployment in New Addington, also not mentioned.

    HTH. Any more questions ?

    Edric 64
    Member

    I dont see what the blokes race or social background has to do with this at all .The company were at fault but surely the employee should not just blindly do the job without assessing the risk himself on every job .As a window cleaner I have to risk assess every time I place a ladder as does anyone else who works for me.If it is dangerous the job cant be done

    Premier Icon Stoner
    Subscriber

    The company were at fault but surely the employee should not just blindly do the job without assessing the risk himself on every job

    when need’s must, then it’s quite likely that a certain amount of common sense necessarily has to take a back seat. That, I think, was one of Ernie’s points.

    Zulu-Eleven
    Member

    Why is his race significant Ernie?

    Are you suggesting perhaps that the fine would have been higher had he been white?

    If your accusation is anything other than that, then I cannot see any possible need to mention his race in any of your posts.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    The company were at fault but surely the employee should not just blindly do the job without assessing the risk himself on every job

    Yep, I’m sure Noel Corbin assessed the risks. I occasionally do stuff which I would rather not do because of the risks involved and because it is illegal/dangerous. It nearly always involves access, such inappropriate scaffolding or lack of crash decks etc. But I have to weigh up the risks against how much I like my job.

    If I think the risks are minimal and that someone else will do it anyway, I might do it, although usually only after pointing out how unhappy I am about doing so. And yes, I’ve had accidents and fallen off scaffolding.

    I guess if I was young black, unskilled, and living in New Addington, how much I liked my job would probably weigh more heavily than it does, so I would be much more likely to take greater risks. The risks I take are pretty minimal – I am white, skilled, highly experienced, and have fairly good employment opportunities.

    Zulu-Eleven
    Member

    The loss of a young life in circumstances such as these is no less tragic whatever the victims colour – it would be no more upsetting to see a young white person take unnecessary risks and lose their life for fear of losing a job or upsetting their employer. Or to see a young white person of any sex feel they had to lie about their qualifications and experience to get a job.

    You seem to have only mentioned his colour because you think that he deserves additional pity and sympathy for being black, which is demeaning, patronising, and offensive, and I think you should apologise for bringing up the subject of his race, when it was quite clearly nothing to do with the accident, and nothing whatsoever to do with the level of fine issued by the court.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    You seem to have only mentioned his colour because you think that he deserves pity for being black, which is demeaning, patronising, and offensive, and I think you should apologise for bringing up the subject of his race, when it was quite clearly nothing to do with the accident, and nothing whatsoever to do with the level of fine issued by the court.

    You really are a bigger idiot than I thought …….. your attempt to score cheap points is truly pathetic 😐

    It’s blindingly clear why I brought up his background. People desperate for work will do stupid things which involve unnecessary risks.

    Zulu-Eleven
    Member

    People desperate for work will do stupid things which involve unnecessary risks.

    I agree, however a young white person who was desperate for work would probably have taken exactly the same risks! Which is exactly why his race had no bearing whatsoever on the issue, and there was no need for you to mention it at all. Thats not point scoring, I simply fail to see why you even mentioned it.

    The only conclusion I can come up with, is that you think we should feel sorry for him because he was black. which is, frankly, disgusting.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    So your colour has no bearing at all on your employment opportunities ……what planet do you live on ?

    I didn’t make a song and dance concerning him being black, I merely referred to him being young black and living in New Addington (in my second post) because I know what being young black living and in New Addington means – it’s highly significant to attitude to work. And yes, it would still have been tragic if he had lived next door to me in South Croydon.

    It’s you who’s making a big song and dance about his colour, in a sad attempt to cane me.

    Zulu-Eleven
    Member

    I know what being young black living and in New Addington means

    Now you just sound like a patronising white middle class twerp!

    Just read back what you wrote there – FFS Ernie, If Boris Johnson said that, you’d be hopping up and down calling for blood.

    I honestly think that that is the most patronising, offensive, racist thing I’ve ever seen written on STW.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    Now you just sound like a patronising white middle class twerp!

    Why’s that Zulu-Eleven …….only ‘a white middle class twerps’ knows about that sort of stuff ?

    I have gone out with girls from New Addington, and more less lived there for periods of time. I’ve worked on building sites in New Addington, I’ve drank in pubs there, shopped there, etc. I’ve worked as part of a pair with black guys, got them work etc. My foster nephew who is black has worked as my side-kick just to give him a job – his wages came out of my money. All stuff which only a ‘white middle class twerp’ would experience ?

    .

    I honestly think that that is the most patronising, offensive, racist thing I’ve ever seen written on STW.

    Have you reported it ?

    Zulu-Eleven
    Member

    Read it again Ernie

    I know what being young black living and in New Addington means

    Again, this isn’t point scoring or trolling – I’m genuinely shocked that someone would come on here and write something so horrifically condescending!

    tyredbiker
    Member

    Firstly I think this post is in very bad taste. I understand that you are trying to raise the issue of a sh!t justice system but it hasn’t really worked for you.

    Noel Corbin’s family and friends WILL search for his name on the internet. This won’t be the first result a search engine throws up but it doesn’t matter. From personal experience I can promise you that they will try and get as much information as possible and often go through pages and pages of results.
    Just as people have speculated about how Noel Corbin was as a worker, David’s sister found a forum where people speculated about him not being on the right side of the road, not wearing a helmet and not having lights- all untrue and it wasn’t dark.

    I understand that at the moment I am sensitive to this issue, but I think we sometimes need to be reminded that the Internet is a public place and this is not a private forum by any means.

    Secondly

    I am white, skilled, highly experienced, and have fairly good employment opportunities.

    Good for you

    deadlydarcy
    Member

    horrifically condescending

    Someone’s overplaying it a bit here…

    Zulu-Eleven
    Member

    I’ve worked as part of a pair with black guys, got them work etc

    How **** generous of you! I’m sure they really appreciate being viewed in that manner

    Well done Ernie“I’m not racist, some of my best friends are black”Lynch – fighting for equality, one slap in the face at a time!

    I think I’ll leave it there and bow out, All I can say is that its interesting to see how people show their true colours when digging themselves out of a hole they’ve created.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    Read it again Ernie

    I know what being young black living and in New Addington means

    Again, this isn’t point scoring or trolling – I’m genuinely shocked that someone would come on here and write something so horrifically condescending!

    Well you obviously don’t know what it means. Or at least claim not to.

    BTW, have you reported my post yet for being the ‘most racist thing you’ve ever seen written on STW’ ?

    Zulu-Eleven
    Member

    Why report it, I think its all the better to remain here unedited for people to form their own opinions.

    Hopefully it will give you a chance to reflect on what you’ve actually said yourself! 🙄

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    Noel Corbin’s family and friends WILL search for his name on the internet. This won’t be the first result a search engine throws up but it doesn’t matter. From personal experience I can promise you that they will try and get as much information as possible and often go through pages and pages of results.
    Just as people have speculated about how Noel Corbin was as a worker, David’s sister found a forum where people speculated about him not being on the right side of the road, not wearing a helmet and not having lights- all untrue and it wasn’t dark.

    A fair point tyredbiker. And on the basis of that, and your personal experience, I am more than happy for the mods to delete the thread. However tragic I think Noel Corbin’s death was.

    tyredbiker
    Member

    Cheers mate, but it doesn’t need to be deleted for my benefit, maybe to cover your tracks though… 😉

    And sorry to those who thought it preachy, I didn’t mean it to sound like that, just a heads up.

    ScottChegg
    Member

    My foster nephew who is black has worked as my side-kick just to give him a job – his wages came out of my money.

    Did you make him call you ‘Boss’, too?

    That has to be the most patronising post in a long career of patronising posts. It looks like you are saying the poor lad was so worthless you could only make up a job to make him feel better about himself?

    Goodness me.

    ernie_lynch
    Member

    @ tyredbiker

    Well make your mind up ! I thought you said that this thread would be upsetting for Noel Corbin’s family and friends ? I accepted that you might be in a better position than me to make that comment. But if you don’t think this is the case then I am more than happy for it to stay.

    I personally can’t see any problem with the subject matter. It’s a story which has been covered by the local press, and to point out the failure of our justice system in speedily resolving the issue (3 years) or the failure to punish anyone responsible, hardly sounds to me particularly upsetting for his family and friends. Nor does the suggestion that job insecurity can lead people to take risks – as I pointed out, I’ve done it myself. I was simply going by your comment, maybe I shouldn’t have ?

    Of course if you’re referring to the point scoring by Zulu-Eleven in which he describes my post as the most racist thing he has ever seen written on STW, or him falsely quoting me, and my response to all that, well then that’s another matter. I do generally ignore Zulu-Eleven but on this occasion I didn’t. Probably a mistake which I will bear in mind for the future. But yeah, other than that, I’m perfectly happy with the thread.

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