Following on from this link on nsmb

https://nsmb.com/articles/pitching-forward-impact-steep-seat-tubes/

What would you do to road bike geometry of you are never going to race?

Tri bikes have a steeper seat angle, MTB are moving towards a steeper seat angle.

What would a road bike be like with a steeper seat angle?

I’ve loved the steepness of my Hello Dave and Geometron, would a road bike be similar?

Steep seat tubes are good when you can get the saddle out of the way with a dropper, but they can get in the way for out of the saddle pedalling otherwise, that might not suit on the road.

It also moves your rear end forward and up, which is probably less aero, but that’s maybe more of a racer’s problem.

160mm full suss 🙂

Horses for courses: IME a steeper seat (in my case 73 and no layback) works nicely on a singlespeed where you’re often on and off the saddle and pushing a big gear, whereas a slack one (in my case 72 and 20-30mm of layback) works better for general riding and long distance where you’re seated a lot more and have access to lower gears.

Racing is all about aero. Thats not comfy.
Id go for a relaxed, slightly more upright position. Wider bars, flexy seatpost and comfy saddle.
Where I can be comfy for a few hours, something that wont give me neck ache or wrist pain, hand numbness. You still need to be “in the middle” of the bike, so the correct size is important. But HA probably matter very little. You just dont get 45 degree switchbacks on the road. Id also suggest a super steep SA is also of little relevance, as again the steepest Road is nothing compared to the steepest off-road climb you will do.

Where do your feet go?

It’s not as silly as question as you might think. There seems to be growing evidence for moving the cleat back. The only downside is when sprinting, but if you’re not racing…

However, moving the foot forward also needs an inline post or slightly steeper seat angle I find.

The other advantage to a steeper seat angle is opening the hip up which helps some people.

I’d just pick something from a manufacturer’s ‘endurance’ range which is what you want. Quick but more comfortable. Let them do the work for you.

Isn’t that just a gravel (or before that was fashionable a touring) bike? I view mine as just being a more comfortable road bike for those days when I’m not just trying to go as fast as possible (and might want to head off down some track). So, slightly longer wheelbase, (maybe) a bit slacker at the front, wider (flared) bars with minimal drop and room for fatter tyres. A 72 degree seat angle on a road bike seems about right to me although a degree either way doesn’t make any difference (especially given the adjustment available in saddle position).

Well, if you’re absolutely not racing, why would you be on a “safety” bike. A recumbent will be quicker almost all the time.

If you want to stick with a vaguely UCI shaped bike then steeper is more aero as it’s the angle between your legs and torso that’s constant, so your shoulders would get lower and your back flatter. The flipside would be it would be really uncomfortable. I don’t think many people put their saddles forward of the UCI allowable position anyway?

I spent a couple of years exclusively riding (two and three wheeled) recumbents. They wouldn’t be (and aren’t) my choice for a bike but I can see why some people love them.

73 degree parallel please. Might stoop to 72 for a head tube for relaxation. Sub 1m wheelbase.

I also have one recumbent trike, one upright trike. The latter is a whole world of terror on cambered roads. The former is just a grin machine.

I’m just curious.

I my road bike, it would be better if it fitted 28c tyres and disks so at some point in the future it will change into something else.

I guess for all out speed a faired egg shaped recrumberant is fastest, but they need people to catch them before they fall over so are not an everyday option for me.

I tried a two wheel recrumberant and its owner said it was tricky on steep hills. It’s steep hills to get to my closest nice roads.

Just wondering if there is some magic bike geometry to make life easier. The steeper seat angles on the geometron felt 1 or 2 gears easier than the segment it replaced. It was the frame as I transferred all the kit over.

Pretty much what I have already which I think is pretty standard road geo (73 parallel give or take, 1m wheelbase, 410mm chainstays) but with a massive headtube for my cranky back. Bike handles great, feels responsive, is comfortable over multiple big days, but I can still use drops or go into an ‘aero’ tuck without a sore back due to relatively tall front end (yes I see the irony of saying ‘aero’ tuck when bars are as a high as saddle…).

Interested in what benefits you might notice if you went slacker on a road bike, is it just about slowing down steering response? I guess I rarely get above 70km/h but do remember getting speed wobbles once or twice…

72.5 parallel, 1010 wheelbase to allow for 32mm tyres and no toe overlap with size 10 winter boots. 170mm heat tube, 70mm bb drop.

I would have the same as I have now.

73.7 SA
73.0 HA
981 Wheelbase

Generally on the road putting your weight forward is considered more racey. You’ll see roadies in breaks on the rivet trying to shift their weight forward.

I find my race bike comfortable – on my old one which had the same geometry I’ve done some very long rides, audax lengths. Right now I’d go for the same geometry as I still like riding and feeling fast. If I wanted something more relaxed I’d probably look to a CX bike. My winter bike is my old CX bike. Slightly longer headtube to give a higher stack without loads of spacers. Slightly more relaxed head angle so it feels more stable. Probably the biggest change is the tyres. 32mm vs 25mm means it feels more stable is knocked around less by the bumps.

I have an older Colnago road bike but the handling is absolutely sublime, it is extremely stable even at high speed on alpine descents – it also got me out of a few tricky situations where I’ve over-cooked it. I’ve owned and ridden ‘race’ bikes that were chattery and far too twitchy to really want to spend long days in the saddle. Not having too extreme a position on the bike helps with comfort i.e. saddle to bar drop. Inline posts and steep seat angles don’t really work either if you’re trying to get the weight centred between the wheels – it only works on tri-bikes because of the tri-bars and weight over the front. Layback also helps engage your quads and glutes for seated climbing. A rear cleat position has been shown to be of limited benefit for road cycling – plus it messes up your position and weight distribution. I suppose the terms used these days is ‘endurance’ geometry and something that will take a tyre in the range of 30-32mm which is really plush at 45psi and gives nice, progressive handling on turns.

Fundamentally though, its a no.

Tri bikes are steep because you don’t need to hold your weight up as they have elbow rests.

MTB’s have steep set angles to pitch your weight onto the front wheel whilst climbing. Road bikes don’t have that problem.

MTB’s have slack head angles and long reaches to add stability, again, not something road bikes struggle with.

Road bikes are already more optimized as the geometry is designed to put plenty of weight over the front wheel, which gives it grip. On an MTB you have to consciously push the bar down, weight forward etc to keep the front from washing out.

Road bikes aren’t wrong. they’re just a different optimum based on not needing to be stable in a straight line over rough ground, but do need to be very maneuverable in tight spaces around other bikes.

I’d still like to try one of these Evils though.

71 seat tube 72 head.

Road bikes aren’t wrong. they’re just a different optimum based on not needing to be stable in a straight line over rough ground, but do need to be very maneuverable in tight spaces around other bikes.

Agree. On a road bike there is a balance of fore aft for the seat and having in the right spot has you body back far enough to support your upper body without putting too much pressure on you arms/hands. This is not relevant to an MTB where the bars tend to be higher and you are not sitting and spinning for 99% of the ride.

https://crosscountrycycle.wordpress.com/2016/10/17/f-y-s-c-a-m-s/

https://crosscountrycycle.wordpress.com/2013/11/02/design-focus/

https://crosscountrycycle.wordpress.com/2013/11/07/slow-slow-fast-fast-slow/

Aren’t tri bikes steep to help get a good aero position?

And also to help the transition between cycling and running

I have an older Colnago road bike but the handling is absolutely sublime

Same here – probably the best handling road bike I’ve ridden. It’s just not as steep up front as most but hasn’t got a floppy, lazy feeling either. That’s my not racing but fast riding road bike. And the way the Italian builders scaled their sizing arguably gets a better result than the Cervelo R+S thing.

What would a road bike be like with a steeper seat angle?

Just pitches your weight onto your hands more. Can ease pressure on the lower back from accumulated climbing strain ime though that’s a conditioning thing on my part more than a bike design point. I’ve ridden a 73.5 STA road bike with an inline post (+1.5 degrees approx over a trad post) and been quite happy on it as it does make up for that weak spot.
I have an old Genesis Equilibrium that is good for winter miles with guards, it’s a 72 HTA which is about as slack as I think is workable on a more trad road bike. 73.5 STA and I don’t have a lot of layback on the post, 5-7mm I think. Works well I think, feels balanced and really confident on steep fast descents. In hindsight, a geo quite influenced by steep local hills.

Also have a couple of custom geo road bikes at the moment. One is a trad lugged steel audaxer with a Colnago-ish front end layout, std 73 STA, more BB drop and ~25mm longer wheelbase to get 30mm tyres and guards in. Square shape/fit. Works really well. Have lightweight toured on it which was a bit much for the rim brakes and gearing but it’s perfect for a summer 300, only struggling on the steeper, rougher lanes.

Another is a clean sheet of paper geometry thing that works better for me for long rides and bad road / byways. 650B tyres and positioning that you’d question by looking at the numbers. The start point got me in a certain range of trial and error, the rest of the fit and balance has been done by feel and it’s now a lot more comfortable over a long ride as well as handling really well (better than the start point that was a bit pro-con). It doesn’t corner on road like my Colnago but my Colnago can’t handle byways. The benefits of the bigger tyres on a longer ride once real fatigue creeps in or riding bad roads in the dark is huge though I just don’t think you can have rail-like cornering quite to that extent on a bigger tyre, not when it rolls edge to edge more than a 23-28mm which feel ‘on an edge’. I tried 650 x 60mm G-Ones on it and they felt a bit odd.

I’ve had a couple of more experimental all-road frames made with longer wheelbases, longer front ends, STAs that could work with a trad post, inline or reversed post, short stems etc. They had advantages off road but to be honest whichever way I set them up they were pretty bad on tarmac and terrible on hair-pinned descents unless you were all MTB body English on every corner which, compared to how the Colnago sweeps through from the pedalling position, to me was just old/tiring after a while. Riding that way is fine for the associated off-road benefits but I’m happier on MTB bars by that point.

I thought the general view was that steep seat tubes are not good for all day comfort, even on mtb. I was very surprised when I saw the pipesream Sirius had a 78 degree or so STA. For an all round all day bike!
The shorter reach and yet longer top tube of my old steel road bikes are very comfy for long days. I’d probably have a slightly slacker head tube to make the handling a little less nervous. It’s very easy to oversteer. Otherwise it’s very nice. And very similar to the racing bikes of the day.

Not sure about exact numbers, but I’d basically just copy whatever Cannondale use in their Supersix. Best handling, most comfortable and smoothest bike I’ve ever ridden!

Dream bike – here are the numbers, make me one in Ti, please and thank you!