poisonspider

I wasn’t going to mention it again JJ but anyway,

You weren’t going to mention it? What was this then?.

poisonspider

Oh hang on, aren’t you concerned it might crack ,
or that the top tube is 0.7mm different to what’s ‘on trend’ at the moment, the handling will be shite!!
And don’t get me started on the head angle, that 0.25deg will surely damage your Strava times!!
OMG, and what about the ‘dynamics/kinematics’?? Have you calculated all those 4th order differential equations needed to predict its handling from the static geometry figures??
You crazy, reckless, ‘not a real cyclist’ loser you!!!!!

mmmm, nice. What size did you get / how tall are you.?

Im about to buy one myself very soon.

5’8 (just about) and got a small. I have a medium Pitch with 36 Vans on it at the moment and I love it but I actually fancied something a bit smaller/shorter and lighter (though the wheelbase on the Capra isn’t that much shorter I don’t think).

The Pitch feels amazing blasting straight down rocky stuff fast and is very stable but doesn’t feel all that manoeuvrable (or ‘chuckable’ 😉 ) for me.

Cheers gravesendgrunt – will keep an eye on that

You weren’t going to mention it? What was this then?.

Well ok, I mentioned it.

Nevertheless, I’m still interested in your analysis?

poisonspider

Well ok, I mentioned it.

Nevertheless, I’m still interested in your analysis?

I believe you’re either being slightly facetious or you’re looking for something else to try and trip me up on, so I’m not going to really indulge you too much, but I’ll say this….

The first thing I look at is geometry. So if thats not to my liking then that’s it over. The second thing I look at is dynamics/kinematics, essentially how the bike rides. The simplest way would be a test ride, if that’s not possible I’ll consider the type of linkage, leverage ratio, curve, shock and tune and try to figure out how it might ride and the best way to do that is to compare it to a known quantity like your current bike.

In terms of the Capra I (personally) would rule it out straight away based on geometry. I know I don’t like it (a medium Capra would be 10mm shorter than my current bike), so no need to go further. Assuming they revised it, well then I’d be interested. And since it’s a Horst link and that’s my favourite set up and I’ve had 6, then I’d be fairly confident it would be to my liking.

These Capra owners are a touchy bunch!

Hob Nob

These Capra owners are a touchy bunch!

I actually got chased by a guy on one after I tried to crack a joke about it 😀

(well when I say chased, he chased me up a hill till I dropped him, then he chased me down a trail…till I dropped him)

The bike snobs are far worse!

Grum, go for a medium, short stays make it manouvre, not tt length,im sure it’s not too late to change the order!

I met a Nomad owner who apologised for having one, before if said anything

The bike snobs are far worse!

Dunno, it’s like some kind of brand specific inverse snobbery.

I ventured into the Pinkbike post about them when my wife briefly considered one – it was mostly full of lunatics (even by Pinkbike standards).

kimbers according to their size guide I should be on a small? I am usually borderline between S and M on most bikes but always sort of wished I’d got a small Pitch.

These Capra owners are a touchy bunch!

Honestly, I’m not being touchy, I don’t care if people think they’re the worse bike ever made (clearly they’re not), everyone has their own tastes, priorities, depth of pocket etc. There wouldn’t be so many options if every one thought the same.

In fact I ought to discourage people from buying one, I quite liked it being uncommon, but hey-ho.

The simplest way would be a test ride, if that’s not possible I’ll consider the type of linkage, leverage ratio, curve, shock and tune and try to figure out how it might ride and the best way to do that is to compare it to a known quantity like your current bike.

I think this is my issue. And again I’m not trying to trip anyone up etc but this is just nonsense.

Suggesting you can calculate the leverage ratio, curve and implications of shock tune etc just by looking at it is ridiculous! To then say you can translate that to a completely different bike where all these variables will be different and work out how it will ride is ludicrous.

Why do companies spend £1000’s with data loggers, making incremental changes to all these variables, using pro level riders who are capable of exploiting the differences the tiny changes make to help tune a design, if it was as simple as looking at some dimensions on the drawing board and then comparing to the bike they rode in on.

The only sensible thing you said there was, the best way to tell is ride one, and I agree wholeheartedly with that.

I am prepared to accept you may have a wide and varied background in riding bikes of all sorts of shapes, sizes and designs and that that has provided you with more insight than your average rider. You may very well be able to predict the difference between the handling on a four bar, faux bar, single pivot, VPP, DW link etc.

But, and it’s a big but, I defy anyone to be able to say about any modern MTB, that this bike will ride like a pig and that one won’t, simply by looking at the static geometry numbers. There’s simply too many variables.

The Spesh Enduro is very tempting. Aluminium, 29.5lbs, Pike & Cane Creek, 11 speed etc and very reasonably priced compared to the Capra etc. Command Post and brakes would probably get swapped for a Reverb and Shimanos but apart from that it looks spot on.

I’m 5’7″ and for me the having relatively long legs the medium Capra with a 40mm stem is a great fit.

poisonspider

Suggesting you can calculate the leverage ratio, curve and implications of shock tune etc just by looking at it is ridiculous! To then say you can translate that to a completely different bike where all these variables will be different and work out how it will ride is ludicrous.

Which is why I said “try” and to use something you know and relate to, like your current bike in order to make as good an approximation as you can. If I’m spending thousands of pounds on something online I’ll do as much as I can to understand what I’m buying.

I am prepared to accept you may have a wide and varied background in riding bikes of all sorts of shapes, sizes and designs and that that has provided you with more insight than your average rider. You may very well be able to predict the difference between the handling on a four bar, faux bar, single pivot, VPP, DW link etc.

Well thank you, very gracious.

But, and it’s a big but, I defy anyone to be able to say about any modern MTB, that this bike will ride like a pig and that one won’t, simply by looking at the static geometry numbers. There’s simply too many variables.

I can tell exactly what I like and what I don’t like based on the geometry. I just happen to like a long tt and have been chasing longer and longer tt’s for years, for the most part this is what the industry has been doing so I’m not too far off the mark.

I just bought a 2015 Kona Process 153 DL for £2500.

Get a 153, its long, slack and such a sweet ride!

I guess I’m much less of an expert but I’m amazed that anyone can write off a bike based on a 1cm difference in TT length.

I’m 5’7″ and for me the having relatively long legs the medium Capra with a 40mm stem is a great fit.

Hmmm, dammit starting to wonder about this sizing now. I think I have short stumpy legs though.

kimbers chainstays are actually slightly longer on the Capra than the Pitch so is it going to be less manoeuvrable? Stop making me think rationally about this you bastards!

Which is why I said “try” and to use something you know and relate to, like your current bike in order to make an approximation. If I’m spending thousands of pounds on something online I’ll do as much as I can to understand what I’m buying.

But how?

Let’s say your current bike has a leverage ratio of 1:2 and a slightly rising rate curve. Now lets say the bike you’re looking at is 1:1.9 and a linear curve (assuming that info is even available), the chainstays on the new bike are 8mm shorter and the BB is 5mm lower. The seat angle is 0.5deg steeper and the reach is 10mm longer.

What’s the implications of all that? Rides better or worse?

But how?
Let’s say your current bike has a leverage ratio of 1:2 and a slightly rising rate curve. Now lets say the bike you’re looking at is 1:1.9 and a linear curve (assuming that info is even available), the chainstays on the new bike are 8mm shorter and the BB is 5mm lower. The seat angle is 0.5deg steeper and the reach is 10mm longer.
What’s the implications of all that? Rides better or worse?

Yeah, but what colour is it?

I guess I’m much less of an expert but I’m amazed that anyone can write off a bike based on a 1cm difference in TT length.

1cm here, 1 cm there, they all add up and can make a big difference to how a bike feels. You don’t know if that buyer has already ridden a bike with a similar reach, or slightly longer and found it on the cramped side of things…

FWIW – you being 5’8″ on a small, I would say you have ordered the wrong size.

My wife is 5’9″ on a large Nomad. Size for size, they are very similar between the Nomad & Capra. A small is going to be dwarf sized. Medium for sure.

The old Pitch used to be quite a long bike, for it’s time (in reach).

FWIW – you being 5’8″ on a small, I would say you have ordered the wrong size.

I’m inclined to agree, I’m 5’9.5″ (the half is very important 😉 ) and I got a large. It suits me but I think the small is pushing it for 5’8″.

On the medium,from center of pedal axle to center seat rail is 840mm at the bikes minimum stock(due to 150mm dropper ) pedaling height-this may give you a gauge to compare with your pitch.My ride height using this is 870mm – ie seatpost is 30mm out of frame.

Hmmm, I was just going by the recommendations on the YT site, which says up to 5’9 you would want a small. I’m more 5’7.5 than 8 but having second thoughts about the small now, arggh!!

poisonspider

FWIW – you being 5’8″ on a small, I would say you have ordered the wrong size.

I’m inclined to agree, I’m 5’9.5″ (the half is very important ) and I got a large. It suits me but I think the small is pushing it for 5’8″. [/quote]

Gets offended when I criticise his bike, sarcastically dismisses slight differences in geometry as being irrelevant….ignores bike companies size chart and needs to go a size up on bike….advises others to do the same.

Oh the ironmongery.

Can we stop all the bitching please? Ta. 🙂

The reach on a medium pitch is 446mm – on a small Capra it’s 400 (or 422 on a medium). Hmmm…..

Hey it’s not you’re thread….. 🙂

It is now! 🙂

I’m 5’8″ and based on the geo alone i’d at least go for the medium.

However i’ve also ridden and owned a bike that was similar length and reach to their large so it’s possible I could even ride that.

It’s all down to personal taste and how you like your bike to fit in the end though.

My mate’s 5’8 and very happy on a medium Capra.

If you care about the kinematics, look at this: http://linkagedesign.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/young-talent-capra-2015.html

It’s a good design!

If you wade through the posts on Pinkbike you end up realising that if your normally a small you need to buy a medium YT.

So I would buy a Large since I normally ride a Medium.

So yes, you may want to change your order. Getting a frame that’s too small wont make it more manoverable, it will just make it too small.

I’m 5 10 and ride a Large Capra (with 35mm stem). I have ridden medium and it felt too short for me with a 50mm stem. Seat was miles in the air at full extension too.

I love the Capra. Its hands down the best/most capable bike I’ve ever owned In 22 years of mountain biking

Definitely a medium grum!

It’s all down to personal taste and how you like your bike to fit in the end though.

I like my Pitch but just fancied something a bit shorter/newer/lighter, but then it seems the medium Capra is a reasonable amount shorter anyway.

I’m 5’8 1/2″. Sat on a large Capra which felt good for length, though I’d have probably got a medium. Would not even consider a small. Issue you might have with a medium Capra is the saddle height being too high with the 150mm reverb depending on your leg length.

Grum, you’re Hebden based aren’t you? May be cheeky and ask for a quick bounce on the capra whichever size you get 😉

Cheers DeeW. Yes DBW – no problem. It’s gonna be at least a month before I get it though.

I’ve emailed them to ask about switching to a medium.

Gets offended when I criticise his bike, sarcastically dismisses slight differences in geometry as being irrelevant….ignores bike companies size chart and needs to go a size up on bike….advises others to do the same.

Oh the ironmongery.

Firstly, I’m not offended if someone doesn’t like the Capra, I’m genuinely not arsed either way.

Secondly, I haven’t dismissed the significance of geometry changes. In fact I spent hours constructing a CAD model of the Capra in medium and large sizes to superimpose over my outgoing Orange 5 to see what differences there were. This was more about fit than trying to make a judgement on the ride characteristics though.

Thirdly, the YT website has a disclaimer basically saying sizing is a personal thing at the end of the day so you don’t have to listen to us!

Fourthly, my ‘advice’ (which they are perfectly capable of ignoring) is based on having ridden a large for a year and having briefly had a go on a small. I’d say that’s pretty reasonably well informed.

Finally, my issue with what you are saying has always been the premise that you can comment negatively about a bike (any bike not necessarily the YT) based on some bullshit about being able to read a bike’s dymanics etc based on the static geometry numbers. Especially when it’s couched in a ‘I know better than those useless corrupt magazine numpties’ attitude.

Now, unless you can convince me you’re Nico Vouilloz or Greg Minnaar or similar, I suspect you’re just talking your game up a bit.

Now, unless you can convince me you’re Nico Vouilloz or Greg Minnaar or similar,

How very dare you. Jimjam used to work in CRC. Knows much more than either of those oafs.

How very dare you. Jimjam used to work in CRC

I used to work in a petrol station, doesn’t make me an expert on cars! 🙄

Some very po faced and serious (boring) cyclists on here.

Get a test ride, if you can’t then take a punt….that’s the joy of bikes, they all ride differently.
So what if the top tube is slightly short….fit a 5mm longer stem and move the saddle back another 5mm…..there you go, you’ve just gained 10mm more TT.

Some of the comments….’l only ride horst link’…..’l used CAD to superimpose the geometry over my old bike’…..jesus wept, you guys are missing out….seriously.

There are so many good bikes and so little time (and money) to own them all!…..i currently have a DW/maestro but I’ve had linkage driven single pivot….I’d like to try Horst….I’d like to try VPP….I’d like to try an Orange-5 etc

This thread has descended into another example of why I don’t ride with others and am loathe to call myself a MTBer, as a group we really are a sad sad bunch.

Anyway, the Capra looks great….this obsession with having a bike so long you can do very little other than sit in the middle of it like a sack of spuds will pass I’m sure, at the moment marketing is leading design and the cash cow is Enduro so that’s why we’ve got what we’ve got so to speak.
Be interesting to see who will be the first manufacturer to break ranks and move away from silly short chain stays and ridiculously long front triangles.

grum – Member
Very tempted to stick one of those new blue Lyrik Capras on my credit card. I don’t even care if it’s not that amazing, I just think it looks cool.

Are you sure you know what you’re doing? That’s a heck of a lot of money just to spend on something that “looks cool”

I’d be drawing it up in CAD/comparing kinematics/checking leverage ratios first…. 😉

You know what deviant, you’re absolutely right. I agree with you entirely!

‘l used CAD to superimpose the geometry over my old bike’…..jesus wept, you guys are missing out….seriously.

😆

(In my defence I only did the CAD thing cos I was crapping it that I’d spunked my money on the wrong size, plus it was a slack day at work)