Great comments thanks all. From what you have said, it seems to boil down to:

1) mid priced forks are pretty good and high end halo products almost have to justify a significant price hike to sell more mid priced forks sitting under that halo

2) market forces (what is the consumer willing to pay?) rather than the Suntour commercial forces approach (cost of manufacture plus margins) seems to dominate.

The second point probably explains my original question so thanks MSP. I just couldn’t work out using the Suntour approach how to get to £1,000.

As I thought, things did drift a little into the ‘we’re all being ripped off’ territory for a while, but that wasn’t my point.

I do also think that given how good bike gear is these days and how small the increments of progress are becoming people are holding onto kit for longer because there is less performance justification to change. This means (in addition to economic forces and cycling no longer being the new golf) that sales are slowing and this inevitably leads to increased prices.

As an aside I bought a pair of the ‘German’ OEM Fox Rhythm forks earlier this year for a winter hardtail build and for less than £200 they outshine my 2 year old F34 Factory Kashima coated forks that would fit into the £800+ category today. So yes as a few people have pointed out you don’t need to spend big to get amazing performance these days (which makes justifying £1,000 even harder).

Haven’t fork prices been in this range for at least a decade?  I seem to remember the early fox air forks being ~£500 around 2001?

RRP on latest, top end stuff, obviously.

Agree with a lot of what’s said in here.

But, I’ve done 10000 miles on a pair of fox forks and the same on a rear can.

Two services on the forks and nothing on the shock.

Expensive but the least hassle I’ve had on a part with plenty of mileage.

I remember spending around 500 (12 years ago) on Pace forks and they never worked in the wet.

That was painful.

1) mid priced forks are pretty good and high end halo products almost have to justify a significant price hike to sell more mid priced forks sitting under that halo

Or that is the latest tech, it’s more complicated and been run in short numbers. It’s probably using more premium materials in some cases for lowers etc.

There is a demand for the top end race products in everyday life, if you want it then it will be a premium in the end and you should probably invest in a lot of oil and seals to keep it nice 😉

When you see the real top guys with their suspension (at a race) it’s nearly set and then it goes off to Fox/RS magic truck for a final setup/tune, if your spending that much on a fork you should probably invest in the mechanic too 😉

It hi k one of the benefits of buying a top end fork or shock is a degree of ‘future proofing’.  I most often buy higher-end stuff but hold onto it for a long time, because the performance is still comparable with newer stuff.

For example, I have a pair of Bos Deville TRC 160mm forks, over 5 years old.  In that time we have had boost and 27.5 become standard – but those are the only things that date the fork.  It’s still incredibly controlled and great feeling.  Having tried more modern Pikes, Lyrics etc – none felt any better and actually didn’t feel even as good.

I think this sums up the cycling manufacturing and cost to consumer market.

Unlike other bicycle component manufacturers, Suntour did not charge what the market would bear, but instead charged a price that covered costs of production plus a small profit markup. As a result, a Suntour derailleur costing $10 competed against similar level products from Campagnolo ($40) and Shimano ($20). As Suntour derailleurs and shifters could be specified on many more low- and mid-priced bicycles, the company gained a reputation with the general public as a producer of only low-end equipment. This reputation would eventually hurt sales when Suntour introduced a complete high-end component group,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SunTour

In some ways, but Suntour, like many other ‘cheap’ makers are just fashion hoppers to some extent, quite happy to let Campag/Shimano/SRAM etc. spend the cash to research and develop new products, sponsor riders, advertising and get the products onto peoples wishlists and then do their own copy for cheaper because they don’t have to include that kind of money on their budgets.

Not saying theres not a Campagnolo et al premium on products of course

Oh and I’d write that on my website if I was selling a cheaper product 😉

I used to buy Rebas for £200-300 on my short travel bikes and Revelations for £300-400 on my trail bikes. These days I buy Rebas for £200-300 on my short travel bikes* and Pikes for £300-400 on my trail bikes.

If anything I’m amazed it’s done as well as it has, the price of full bikes and frames has rocketed far more.

*For example, my most recent was bought on June 27th, this year. £219 for 2017 Reba RL Solo 29, 120mm travel, tapered. Probably less than I paid for forks 15 years ago.

They charge that much because someone will pay it.  I’m not saying they are inflating the cost artificially necessarily, but they now produce things that are expensive to manufacture, and in the past they wouldn’t have bothered because they’d have decided no-one would pay. But now they will.

But the super rich market segment now exists as well as the normal and budget segments, so they may choose to make a bit more profit on the super high end stuff because they can, and use that to subsidise the lower end stuff where cost is more of an issue.

It’s good news for us – the rich people pay for the R&D that eventually trickles down to us. So we  get better forks, the fork companies make more money to reinvest, and the rich people get some shiny fabulousness to show off to their mates. Win/win/win.

I remember back in the day going on CRC and sorting by price on suspension forks. The most expensive ones were the Foes Curnutt DH forks at over a grand. It seemed like an enormous amount of money, but they were low volume, specialist bits of kit.

That was probably 15 years ago, so some inflation has happened, but a high end ‘normal’ fork was maybe £400 back then. Current prices do seem to be taking the piss a bit.

In some ways, but Suntour, like many other ‘cheap’ makers are just fashion hoppers to some extent, quite happy to let Campag/Shimano/SRAM etc. spend the cash to research and develop new products, sponsor riders, advertising and get the products onto peoples wishlists and then do their own copy for cheaper because they don’t have to include that kind of money on their budgets.

Except that was an historic example of how the marketing of cycling products changed when those companies were very much viewed as being equal, but by merely charging higher prices shimano and campag became viewed as premium. VW would be another example, charge a higher price, market doors that go klunk, and people believe that they are higher quality when they are at best merely equal to their main cheaper competitors.

Fwiw I know I had a pair of RS mag 21s bought for my 18th birthday in 1993. They were 320 quid. On the bank of England’s inflation adjuster, that equals £619.71.

Equivalent is probably something like a SID RL, rrp is £564.

48mm – 100mm

3lb 4oz – 3lb 7oz

Jumpers for goalposts?

Recently bought some very nice fox 34s for 240 quid and last year a set of Yaris for about 325 or 350?

Dunno what you’re on about tbh. Who’s paying RRP?

Yes. Correct.

FOX moved with it’s forks and shocks into the “1.5 k mountain bike market”. Since maybe 2 years?

Crazy sales from CRC or bike-components.de for those FOX forks…

Bought three fantastic FOX forks over the last 1 1/2 years. Same as Del-bloke: none of the forks was more than 300 quid. (RRP in the range of 0.7 … 0.9 k …)

Wait for the winter sales!

My guess: manufacturing costs of a 0.9 k fork is around 100 quid? But that’s fine with me – as long as bike-components sells those for 199 Euros again (like winter 2017/18)…

And: those forks are sooo good now. 2017 fork technology is great!!!

I think the prices went nuts when Fox bought out the original 36 which was way more expensive than anything else on the market at the time. They were pretty good – 150mm travel, light and adjustable. They very quickly became the fork to have. The Pikes of that era were dirt cheap.

There are good alternatives though – my Mattoc’s are bloody good and were so cheap from CRC plus the updates such as IRT are backwards compatible.

My guess: manufacturing costs of a 0.9 k fork is around 100 quid?

Guess based on what?

Try a new Lyrik or 36 compared to something from even 5 years ago and you’ll see just how much better it is.

I have some relatively new Pikes, and some forks that are longer travel than them but way lower in the pecking order from 2012.

The Pikes do do some good stuff, but I genuinely believe 80%+ of people with this sort of opinion just never service their forks and thus the new ones seem far better by virtue of working. They are far more reliable than my first pair of Rockshox (purchased in 1998, lasted a less than a year despite being serviced twice), but I think the reliability’s been sorted since around 2000 (There’s a set of still functioning year 2000 SIDs with some slightly bodged internals on my ex’s bike).

The pricing isn’t a reflection of the costs (whatever the source of those costs is – R&D, marketing, manufacture, distribution). It’s a reflection of how the manufacturer wants their brand to be seen in the market. This includes to some extent limiting any oversupply so that the internet isn’t flooded with low priced stock.

If you think RS are bad, take a look at the price rise of BOS…

I get that, but unlike many other products forks do seem to stick close to the RRP. That’s another element of the question I guess. Having been in and around retailer for most of my career I am very sceptical about ‘savings’ and RRPs but it is rare (other than discounts on last year’s models) to see much discount on forks.

There are bargains to be had on everything if you’re lucky and don’t insist on having the top of the range/best reviewed fork (which will obviously have sold out).

In the last year or so I know people who’ve picked up various high end forks for silly low money – there was a good batch of Marzochi last year.  One of the German sites was selling end of line Fox at less than half price.  There were some bargains on Rock Shox that came up on here not long ago.

X-Fusion seem to be putting out forks that tick all the boxes for a lot less money than the market leaders.

Review: X-Fusion McQueen Roughcut HLR Fork

£460 from Freeborn at the moment.

The Pikes of that era were dirt cheap.

IIRC, the original Pikes were basically beefed up Rebas. From what I remember, RockShox weren’t in great financial shape when they got taken over by SRAM. They had quality control problems, hence the shift of production to Asia. Their XC and trail forks had 28 mm stanchions, the Sid had all the stiffness of soggy pasta. The Duke and Psylo were not as noodly, but still sucked in comparison to Marzocchis. The Reba changed all that overnight, but it still took a few years to get their reputation back, so they were often sold at a discount. I’m still running some old Rebas and Revelations from back then that I picked up pretty cheap. Now they seem to be back to being a premium brand, so the good stuff doesn’t get discounted like in the old days.

Now they seem to be back to being a premium brand, so the good stuff doesn’t get discounted like in the old days.

Sounds right.

But their “low end” forks aren’t great and too expensive – like the Sektor. RRP for the Sektor forks is silly high.

Enough competition around so – for example for Enduro/Downhill forks. “Normal” sales price for a model year 2018 Durolux , 180 mm is around 0.5 k?

That’s not too much.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/rockshox-yari-rc-solo-air-forks/rp-prod138975?gs=1&sku=sku503922&pgrid=49334610141&ptaid=pla-425336153939&utm_source=google&utm_term=&utm_campaign=PLA+All+Products&utm_medium=base&utm_content=mkwid|soCYwNG6x_dc|pcrid|254148898260|pkw||pmt||prd|503922UK

180mm Yari for under £500, plenty of really good forks out there

 2018 Durolux , 180 mm is around 0.5 k?

How much does that cost to manufacture? 0.075k?

I never pay near RRP anyway but total cost of a fork or shock includes service.

If you’re paying £100+ for a full service then psychologically you feel better than paying it on a £1000 fork than a £500 one…

Also the parts retail are pretty expensive… foam rings and spacers are ludicrous… as are smaller quantities of oil.

I guess the same logic applies… do I want to spend £XX on new foam rings or seals for a £500 fork or a £1000 fork?

Not specifically suspension but you can get the Reverb for £200 but something like £70 for a service plus new parts… and a new hose or connectathingy etc. or cost of a bleed kit etc.

Another point is that there was a boom and bust 10 years ago. Demand (for everything, not just bikes) plummeted in the recession, so manufacturers had to slash prices to keep factories working and pay the bills. Now we have had a decade or so of growth, demand has picked up and everything involved in manufacturing will be more expensive. A lot of stuff will be subcontracted, and those subcontractors will have lots of other potential customers so they can jack up prices, plus skilled workers will be in demand so wages will rise. Even the low-end stuff will be much more expensive to make because it’s still competing for factory time and skilled workers.

Sterling weakness is a factor. Why would they cut their margins ?

Market forces is what dictates pricing not production costs.

No one is being ripped off unless of course you pay £1,000 for something advertised at £500, not sure that happens.

I love it when the collectivists come out of the woodwork.

I paid £280 for a brand new 160 Yari last year. Amazing value. I remember having to import a Judy SL from the US for similar money as European price was £450…23 years ago.

Forks are really cheap and in real terms for what you get. Oh and by and large they are reliable. Which they didn’t use to be.

Market forces is what dictates pricing not production costs.

Supply and demand. With low-end stuff there will be other products competing for production capacity. Sub-contractors will take whatever contracts are most profitable, so production costs will rise when economies are booming. Demand for bikes will also rise, so even low-end forks will be more expensive.

My guess: manufacturing costs of a 0.9 k fork is around 100 quid?

Guess based on what?

Rough Guess: weight is 2 kg

When you take such a fork apart there is really no “fancy stuff in” and it’s all manufactured and assembled in Asia.

Purchasing of the raw material will be around £ 2 .. 5 for every kg

Top notch machining and plating / coating / painting: max £ 40 for each kg?

Ends up a bit below 100 quid.

O.k. those are the manufacturing costs. I guess those companies face very “high warranty costs” as well. Those will add of course. R&D and sales costs will add – plus the “margin” the company likes to make…

Actually there is fancy stuff. The tolerances of the valving / sealing is surprisingly good and not cheap to achieve consistently. The margins are pretty crucial to pay the staff and give then a half decent working environment too. And loads of other obvious overheads…

Top notch machining and plating / coating / painting: max £ 40 for each kg?

Didn’t you come out with this in another thread?

Yes that way of looking at the cost of goods works when you’re trying to compare the economies of china and Europe to see which is producing high value goods, it’s a rubbish metric for looking at an individual product and trying to back calculate it though. After all the welded lowers on a BSO in Halfords are obviously cheaper than the cast and machined magnesium ones on RS forks despite being considerably heavier. There’s no way you can say a product weighs X and therefore costs ax=y.

The tolerances of the valving / sealing is surprisingly good and not cheap to achieve consistently

I’ve worked for a diesel injector manufacturer. The tolerances were much, much closer (sub micron tolerances achieved through match ground components in the valving – which you just won’t see or need in a suspension fork). It has to be quite well made, there are coatings and stuff and seals which are far better than they once were, but it’s not super-precise engineering. And when you pull them apart, you can see there’s nothing that complicated.

Top notch machining and plating / coating / painting: max £ 40 for each kg?

From where?

And when you pull them apart, you can see there’s nothing that complicated.

So what would you cost manufacturing at?

I’ve worked for a diesel injector manufacturer. The tolerances were much, much closer (sub micron tolerances achieved through match ground components in the valving – which you just won’t see or need in a suspension fork). It has to be quite well made, there are coatings and stuff and seals which are far better than they once were, but it’s not super-precise engineering. And when you pull them apart, you can see there’s nothing that complicated.

Yes.

£ 40 for each kg – when asking for “more than 500…1000 pieces is the highest you will ever get in Asian high quality machining shops.

There’s no way you can say a product weighs X and therefore costs ax=y.

Wrong. If you know the type of product (lets say high pressure diesel injectors / super high pressure hydraulics, see example from philjunior-bloke) – means you roughly know the materials used, the coatings and the tolerances, rough number produced – this math is can be done and is correct. All bigger purchasing departments (mechanical stuff) need to do these calculation.

In civil construction works it’s similar. Type of building, soil conditions and “volume” of the building planned.

But correct – manufacturing costs are only a small part of the “price”. Price and manufacturing costs are not directly related.

Warranty costs, R&D costs and marketing costs (the “brand name”) / costs of sales for a product – like a mountain bike fork- will be higher than the manufacturing costs.

That’s normal.

So what would you cost manufacturing at?

I didn’t bother speculating, I’ve never been involved in producing MTB parts, or mass production in the far east for that matter.

But in any case, there are plenty of legitimate things that the money goes on, and then the price is set to determine the product’s place in the marketplace (for premium forks at least). It’s the final part that’s the main bit here. It probably makes a bit of sense to sell new bits in smaller volumes anyway, to minimise any widespread warranty issues if a new part proves not to last that long in the real world/when mass produced, and having a premium/second tier/budget pricing structure fits this well (though I would be surprised if this is the thinking behind the price structure).

Wrong. If you know the type of product (lets say high pressure diesel injectors / super high pressure hydraulics, see example from philjunior-bloke) – means you roughly know the materials used, the coatings and the tolerances, rough number produced – this math is can be done and is correct.

Ok but it’s not just machining in the case of forks, is it?  As you point out, there’s finishing, treating, coating, painting etc.  And assembly, that can’t be cheap.  I bet it’s done by a human being, probably costs more than the machining.  Then there’s QC, if you’re not Pace – that probably costs a fair bit too.  All of that is in the manufacturing budget.

Anyway – the suggestion seems to be that SRAM, Fox etc are ripping off consumers by over charging – isn’t it?  Can someone find the corporate accounts from the US equivalent of Companies House, just to see how much profit, divis and bonuses they are making?

Anyway – the suggestion seems to be that SRAM, Fox etc are ripping off consumers by over charging – isn’t it?

As we live in a capitalist society, it’s not really ripping off is it? Just maximising their profit. I imagine it’s something they and most sizeable companies spend a lot of time trying to perfect.

They may well sell fewer forks (not just make less money) if they priced them based on what they cost to manufacture with a margin for R&D/sposorship etc. It’s their business and up to them what they do though I would happily live in a world where they were priced differently (as long as the company survived!)