aracer – Member

Is any of the positive stuff actually exclusive to the “45”?

No, but there are strong shared interests and it has the potential to be a loud and positive voice. So basically what it comes down to is, do you want to write off the whole deal because of a (possibly fairly high) percentage of cockholsters. Considering that a lot of people who seem to be engaging with this are the generally unengaged, personally I don’t want to do that. Or at least I’m reserving judgement.

The precedent for 45 rebellions isn’t that great though

I saw a release today saying that since Thursday, membership of the Scottish Greens has gone up by about 40%. It’s (IMO) part of the same thing, people who’ve been focused on the referendum looking at “what’s next”.

NWO- New World Orders. I watched a couple of the vote fixing videos, mostly they reckon it’s all part of Teh Global Conspiracy, and delivered in the portentous tones of a 40 year old virgin. “Here… someone… is… putting… yes… votes… in… the… no… pile”. Maybe they are, maybe they’re not, but unless there was 200000 votes in that pile…

Even the polling companies admitted they had no idea if their models were correct and they could of been wildly off.

That’s not true. You don’t successfully sell a product by claiming that you have no confidence in it. YouGov were particularly confident of their poll findings.

grum – Member

Has anyone mentioned yet that Alex Salmond is now saying there doesn’t even need to be a positive referendum vote for Scotland to gain independence?

Specifically, he’s said that if you reach a point where you’re independent in all but name, you might as well just be independent. But he’s also said that a referendum is the best way.

Can it be true that the newspapers misrepresented what he said

I cannot believe that to be the case

They were so impartial 😉

The idea that Scottish independence might be gained through a simple majority of SNP MPs goes back to at least 1968 and was put forward by one Douglas Hurd (now Baron Hurd of Westwell) in his novel Scotch on the Rocks so it’s hardly new.

you’re one step away from making your own tinfoil hat and guy fawkes mask)

You rang me’lord

Just been sent this by a Supporter…Thoughts?"Hi all this is only a theory troops ! I'm a ex serving soldier of 8…

Posted by Aye 2 Scotland on Saturday, September 20, 2014

Great post btw Scotroutes

Specifically, he’s said that if you reach a point where you’re independent in all but name, you might as well just be independent.

So what he’s saying is don’t give us too many powers? 😈

Of course being independent in all but name would presumably involve having your own currency and central bank 😉

Global sales of Scotch whisky suffered one of their worst falls in recent decades, slumping by 11% for the first half of the year and wiping £220m off overall sales.

probably heavily influenced by the new Chinese premier banning “gifting”

another example of a global conspiracy 😉

so what was that rogue poll.

I feel that poll was a ploy by the media to change the outcome of the referendum

The referendum campaign showed some really worrying lack of trust in the government

I think that was one of the best things about the referendum. People were thinking seriously for themselves, instead of just accepting what politicians were telling them (on both sides of the debate).

I didn’t believe the SNP’s suggestion that independence would make Scotland a wealthy, oil fuelled utopia, but I still decided that Yes was the best way to vote.

Oh, one of the reasons people fail to respect democracy is that they don’t think it’s worthy of respect

What a crock. We have just seen how much respect democracy is given. Instead of anarchy and violence we had a largely peaceful process where people were able to express views freely (at least on the yS side!), no resorting to violence, little evidence of electoral malpractice and a high turnout. There can only be one conclusion from that – the vast majority have a great deal of respect for democracy and wish for this to be the process used for political debate and change. The yS excuses are getting ridiculous now.

The referendum campaign showed some really worrying lack of trust in the government, on both sides, it’s a bad state of affairs.

And yet this was a vote all about government. This was not a vote about shrinking government or replacing it. Some people were even prepared to trust the author of the book of dreams and even Gordon Brown. That is taking trust to the extreme.

But granted, why folk trust politicians has always been a little beyond me.

The YouGov poll was the only one putting Yes ahead. Guardian analysed all the polls a day or two before vote and it was going to be a No. We know from previous independence referendum that the polls over predict the Yes vote. I guess that’s why that chap was happy sticking £900k on a No vote.

probably heavily influenced by the new Chinese premier banning “gifting”

another example of a global conspiracy

Well, seeing as a large part of that ban was a result of (what is loosely known as) the UK Bribery Act, then once again, it’s those *********ing *****ers in Westminster destroying everything in Scotland. How very dare they?

😉

Interesting to see this crop up, actually. Many industries are feeling the pinch of the recently found drive for a less corrupt state in China.

The YouGov poll was the only one putting Yes ahead.

YouGov put the Noes well ahead and Peter Kellner of YouGov publicly stated on TV within half an hour of the polls closing that he was 99% certain that the Noes were going to win.

teamhurtmore – Member

What a crock. We have just seen how much respect democracy is given.

And yet here we are with a thread called “What happened to respecting democracy” You seem to want to argue with me but you don’t really seem to be sure what about

ernie_lynch – Member
The YouGov poll was the only one putting Yes ahead.
YouGov put the Noes well ahead and Peter Kellner of YouGov publicly stated on TV within half an hour of the polls closing that he was 99% certain that the Noes were going to win.

this is true. Tbh this whole process has made me understand and ultimately in the last few days, learn to respect polls.

scotroutes – Member
I’ve been struggling to get my thoughts in order since Friday morning. A wee break up north gave me some thinking time and has, I hope, let me put some perspective on things. I thought that writing some stuff down might also help. That link to bellacaledonia probably most captures my overall mood though.

First of all, let me say how angry I am. Not at those who voted No, more at myself. All my life I’ve believed that Scotland was a nation, a country in some sort of “reluctant” union with England. Folk talk of “national” anthems, of the “national” press. We have sports teams, leagues and competitions because we are a separate country. We have a separate legislature, education system and now a form of devolved government. We have a strong culture of song, story and poetry made richer by a frequent focus on Scottish nationhood. I guess I had allowed myself a semantic misunderstanding, that folk who talked of a separate Scottish nation actually meant it the same way that I did.

In the run up to the referendum, I had also fallen into a social media trap. I’m sure we’ve all done it to an extent. We “like” or “follow” the commentators, groups and feeds that back up our view of the world. Thus, with 18th September approaching, it was all too easy to read all the messages of confirmation and to believe that we really were capable of re-establishing nationhood. TBH, for me that probably didn’t even have to result in too much change. A choice by the people of Scotland to assert their sovereignty could well have resulted in almost exactly the sort of union we currently have. The difference is that we would at least know it was of our choosing and that we could exit it without permission from some higher authority. This is, after all, the sort of union that already exists across the EU.

I do believe that the media played a major part in the result. I saw too much stuff first hand that was somehow downplayed or simply lied about to believe it was all unintentional. Of course, newspapers and independent sources don’t have to maintain balance but I really had expected better of the BBC. I guess I will never trust any of their reporting again.

I never really believed that 50%+1 was sufficient either. Even 55/45 the other way seems too close as a result. Looking at independence movements in other countries, I’d have hoped for something more like 80/20. And now we are left with “the 45”. I’m still getting all the pro-indy comments, how we can do it again in 2020, or devise some other method for upsetting Westminster.

Currently, this looks to me like the actions of a spoilt child that hasn’t got what it asked for and is now just shouting louder in the vain hope that the decision can be overturned. Whether what we now have is the “settled” will of the people, I cannot say but I’m certainly not in favour of re-running these past two years every decade or so.

At the moment, I’m going through my facebook and twitter feeds and removing what I can and I’m going to try to open my mind a bit more to what other folk are saying, to listen to their spin on what Scotland is.

Until then, the best I can describe my feelings is to say that I feel like a person displaced. Like the country I thought I belonged to has been obliterated and no amount of lashing out at others will change that.

Scotroutes post eloquently puts national sentiment and identity to the fore. Everyone has a different view on nationhood, one no more valid than another. We can question what vote is best for Scotland, but everyone that put a cross on the ballot paper did so in the best interest of THEIR Scotland! You cannot ask for much more.

Since the result I have been going through a range of emotions. Initial relief, then guilt, sometimes happy this period is over as I feel drained, and sad at other times that the anticipation has gone. I know how I would have felt if the vote had gone the other way, and I have family and friends that are completely gutted right now.

I must also apologize for any offence I caused to members throughout the debate. I took many posts and links to heart and was often unpleasant in response. Although many have contributed in support of UK, I felt like it’s sole supporter here with a vote, although that is no excuse. I tried not to read the papers and saw more Yes social media. I never felt Better Together grasped the way I feel, with only Gordon Brown coming close on the eve of the referendum.

I felt able to make some closure after making a peaceful protest by turning my back to Alex Salmond when he visited my home town recently. I know the gesture was symbolic but I felt compelled to make it. Following this my picture was put on social media, where some comments from Yes supporters were positive and supportive.

That day I got a sense of, and an admiration of the community and unity of purpose that is Yes Scotland, and felt occasional jealousy that no similar group could convey this in support of the UK.

I initially believed there would be no winners from the referendum whatever the result. Scotroutes comments make me think this belief may not be true.

seeing as a large part of that ban was a result of (what is loosely known as) the UK Bribery Act

Not really – the UKBA isn’t so influential that it causes major realignments of Chinese domestic policy. It’s more the case that the Chinese and UK governments are part of the same upswing in making an attempt to enforce (some) antibribery law and catch up to the US, France and Germany. The Chinese moves are more to address domestic scandals/public resentment within China, which is why they have focused on bribery of domestic officials, although tbf they have also identified bribery of foreign public officials by Chinese entities as an unacceptable anticompetitive practice. Brazil’s “Clean Companies” law is another example of that same global trend.

Many industries are feeling the pinch of the recently found drive for a less corrupt state in China.

But many more will benefit as the drag caused by corrupt practices (and associated fraud) is reduced.

I know this because I work for a company that manufactures glue that is used in the manufacture of generic sticky notes in China…

Chapeau Athgray very well put. I still believe in independence but that is now off the agenda. In the immediate aftermath of the result I also felt despair a life long dream was completely crushed and major elements of my own identity called into question. However my family are still my family pals are still pals people have convinced me that Scotland maybe different from how I saw it,is still Scotland. Time to find common ground and build a better Scotland

seeing as a large part of that ban was a result of (what is loosely known as) the UK Bribery Act

That I doubt, you’ll find bribery and corruption is completely unchanged in Africa, your local agent just takes care of all the payments and doesn’t leave any paper trail.

That’s not true. You don’t successfully sell a product by claiming that you have no confidence in it. YouGov were particularly confident of their poll findings.

Martin Boon, director of polling company ICM, warned BBC Radio 4’s ‘More or Less’ that the independence referendum could prove to be a “polling Waterloo”.

Sounds like some of them knew that the models they were using might not be as good as they thought. As it of course turned out they were all pretty much right, but there was potential for an upset and they knew it.

YouGov put the Noes well ahead and Peter Kellner of YouGov publicly stated on TV within half an hour of the polls closing that he was 99% certain that the Noes were going to win.

He was the only one willing to call it though and the interview mentioned that and also the risk in doing it.
None of the other did the same though

Nice link above ta