Interesting what you say about “where are the kids?”
Most DH bikes I see these days are being ridden by “yoofs” around town.
“Gansta DH bike, innit…”

I can see the link between F1 and WC DH. From a completely business point of view Minnar, Gwin and Hart aren’t their to sell V10s, Tues and Summums, the market is tiny, they’re there to sell piles of trail bikes from the same brand which is all well and good, a halo series to act at both R&D platform and advertising hoarding – but what to do when he current crop retires

Speaking personally, I’m someone who owns a downhill bike and and enduro bike. I can get down most stuff..

I’ve never entered an enduro event but am tempted, I would come near the end, I may even come last, but I don’t think I’d be embarrassed as such.

I however would not even consider entering a dh race… I just feel that I would be so far off the pace it would be shameful.

I just don’t think your average mtber has the skill set to tackle a dh track at race pace, which I think would put many people off. And when enduro is far more accessible, and people now have a choice, they will obviously gravitate towards something more suited to their skills.

Mmmm, what happened to DH !!!!
Ye auld ’97 Ae DH track is now being utilised as an “Enduro” trail. The Ae ’97 trail came about because FCS became “nervious” of the DH “races” being held at Mabie. Those races had escalated from those of u riding hardtails of various designs. I was riding a Trek 8000!!!! Mate was on a 3spd Strummy Archer Raliegh 8)

tpbiker – Member
Speaking personally, I’m someone who owns a downhill bike and and enduro bike. I can get down most stuff..

I’ve never entered an enduro event but am tempted, I would come near the end, I may even come last, but I don’t think I’d be embarrassed as such.

I however would not even consider entering a dh race… I just feel that I would be so far off the pace it would be shameful.

Never considered entering a DH race.
After consulting an “Enduro” race organiser who persuaded me that the event was definitely aimed at the average rider I placed an entry. My one and only entry…………. utter bo.llocks revthe “our event is aimed at the Enduro beginner”. Event the locals I encountered were mumpping&moaning 🙄

What happened to DH? – Too many people ending up in wheelchairs?

In my experience, DH seems to be doing well in terms of uplift days. Every one I go to has loads of people, young and old, on DH bikes, getting loads of runs in.

Also, yes, most DH tracks can be ridden on an’enduro’ bike (there was a guy on and One One Inbred at Stinog) but run after run I would rather be bashing my DH bike down stiniog rather than my Bronson.

I know that the BDS has had its BC funding slashed. Si has posted, a couple of times I believe, a breakdown of where the money goes and it looks like an expensive do. He’s certainly not making much – if anything.

Lastly, racing DH is expensive. No doubly. But there’s no point in talking about how much time you get on your bike for £90. For £30 you can get loads of track time on most DH tracks the weekend prior to a race. You’re paying £90 to be the fastest man or woman in your category down a hill on the day. On the other hand, paying £90 to get rinsed is not much fun and I wouldn’t want to do it.

I feel for the rapid guys and girls who simply cannot afford to travel the country to race because I understand that ‘racers’ are a rare breed and it would suck not being able to afford to do the things you’re born to do. I just hope they are having fun in the woods.

Also, yes, most DH tracks can be ridden on an’enduro’ bike (there was a guy on and One One Inbred at Stinog) but run after run I would rather be bashing my DH bike down stiniog rather than my Bronson.

Yep. Everyone I know who owns both types of bikes firmly believes that there is nothing like a DH bike for a DH track. As someone who spent 9 years in a row riding the Whistler bike park on “enduro” bikes, only to switch to DH bikes in the last few years, I can categorically state that there is nothing like a DH bike for DH tracks, IMO.

I think competing in DH requires a level of commitment that most people can’t afford, both financially and physically, these days: if you get injured, and have to be off work for a prolonged period of time, it could have serious implications. I remember when i got knocked off my road bike, my company were talking about suing the driver if I had to be off for any period of time. Imagine if that happened due to my own actions?

As a result, I think DH riding on a casual basis, is still relatively alive, but competing: Not so much, unless you are at a level where giving up the day job is an option.

That’s why Katy Winton, enduro podium-botherer, could turn up for an SDA round on an enduro bike and win- her first dh race ever. She didn’t quite get it, she was spotted riding up the hill instead of waiting for the bus.

Are you referring to one of the final rounds of the SDA at Inners back in 2011?
I remember that well… Scotland’s leading female DH racer (at the time) was not very happy being beaten by her chirpy wee XC pal.
Interestingly a young Kenta Galagher also raced that event (I seem to remember the two of them had a break in their XC race schedules so were doing it for a bit of fun). Kenta podiumed in Senior. Obviously enjoyed himself and has now left XC and gone on to become a top 20 threat at WC level DH.

FWIW Will Longden also used to ride up at innerleithen races back when he was the third highest ranked Brit DH rider and I saw Tracy Moseley do the same at Midlands DH races. And no one “got” DH more than those two.

They may both be classed as gravity sports but other than that Enduro to DH isn’t such a simple (or fair) comparison to make.
They’re actually fairly different types of race. At the top of their game competitors in both are extremely fit (but in slightly different ways).
DH at the top level is all about piecing together that one perfect run by practising, analysing and dissecting the track into micro sections. Learning and riding the line choices you’ve made. piecing it all together and when the beeps start trying to put down as close to a 100% run as you can manage without blowing up or crashing. (World champs even more so)
I’m no expert but isn’t Enduro (meant to be) raced after only minimal practice? over multiple and far longer stages. This must result in each stage having to be ridden far more within your limits than a DH race run. Especially as you’re looking for consistency over the multiple stages? In some ways it “could” be a far purer racing format the DH. (if the courses really were only pre-ridden during official practice – which we all know they’r not) Unfortunately the format to me.. just kills flair, flamboyancy and risk taking. Pretty much all the things that drew me towards DH in the first place.
Watching Sam Hill ride that far under his former limit kinda saddens me.

Personally I struggle to understand why folk will pay £60 to basically ride an XC route you could any other weekend (or the same evening if they really wanted) ride for free. Over paying £15 more to have 2 days of uplifts and ride a properly marshalled/Medic’d track in a environment you’d learn and progress faster on. But then I struggle to understand a lot of the choices enthusiasts in modern cycling make.

It’s a real shame for the SDA and BDS but if they’re losing money they really have no choice but to cancel events and cut their losses. Sad times. (but still have the great memories)

A major thing is just the cost of the bikes these days.

When i started riding in 2005 ish, you could get a freeride or DH bike for about 1500-1800 quid, and then pick up an old Coyote Dh second hand for about 300. As a youngster it made it almost accessible.

Now there arent many companies making “cheap” DH rigs, and the secondhand market isn’t what it used to be (as far as I can tell).

smidge over at 2k
https://www.yt-industries.com/uk/detail/index/sArticle/1255/sCategory/78
stuff is there and the direct sales will bring it in close, I think one of the major things posted above is how easy it is to get uplift now at places like rev or BPW I remeber racing was really an uplift day at the level I was racing at. Alps were further away it seemed and racing gave you that option to ride.

?..I struggle to understand why folk will pay £60 to basically ride an XC route you could any other weekend (or the same evening if they really wanted) ride for free. Over paying £15 more to have 2 days of uplifts and ride a properly marshalled/Medic’d track in a environment you’d learn and progress faster on. But then I struggle to understand a lot of the choices enthusiasts in modern cycling make.

Enduro routes are hardly ‘xc’, often, enduro events will use old dh tracks for the easy bits.

As for the why, as an also-ran punter, 3 or 4 different tracks is better than 1.

https://www.yt-industries.com/uk/detail/index/sArticle/1255/sCategory/78

Hmm that’s quite nice actually haha.

I agree on the uplift availability thing.

And some enduro race tracks are pretty rowdy, too many armchair pinners talk codswallop me thinks.

I’d definitely say a combo of Enduro and bike parks killed DH at some levels. I used to race DH, I now race Enduro, I prefer it. Sometimes its a timed stage on an XC track, sometimes its a new track, sometimes its an old or current DH track, often its a combo of the 3. Its generally a bit cheaper than DH though, gives you way more time in the saddle, and its just more fun IMHO. Also my enduuurrrro bike happily rides around my local woods, trail centres, BPW, Antur etc. whereas a DH bike likes, well, to ride DH. For alot of people having two bikes is either too costly or takes up too much room, so enduro was always going to win in the long run.

I think the bike park was the death knell though, why would I pay to race a DH race when I can pay a fraction of the price and ride on my schedule at a bike park?

I would also think the changes to the UCI rules have hit the national series a bit. People used to chase points on the BDS to get a WC place at somewhere like Fort Bill, for the experience, for the fun, so you can say you raced a WC maybe. Since the fields got chopped, thats basically no longer going to happen unless you’re already pretty much a full time sponsored rider, so why bother?

Compare the number of threads for the DH WC that just finished in one of the closest and open seasons to date vs the multiple threads on the front page for a road bike race.

On a mountain biking forum as well.

I see the argument that enduro could be a ripoff as well. £60 odd for a timer and some tape? You could Strava it easily enough (assuming signal availability). Just like DH, you’re only paying to be fastest on the day so I don’t see how you can argue one for one side without noting that the same argument applies against.

As for parks and such, up here, not so much. Scotland has LOADS of DH but very little choice in terms of uplift. You have just FW and Glencoe right now. Uplift Scotland have closed down and until someone picks up the tender Inners is out. Ae hasn’t had an uplift in donkeys. Racing is about the only chance you get to ride a lot of tracks either with uplift or at all.

TBH £80 isn’t that bad for two days (Tally charged £35 a day) and you would spend the same on food, fuel and accommodation to get to an enduro so that argument doesn’t hold much water either (assuming you’re racing regionally as opposed to nationally).

Bike? Commencal Supreme V.3 €2299 or a Norco Aurum for £2099. People manage to spend the same on n+1 fat bikes, gravel bikes, woodburners and whatever other stuff is in fashion. You can get a lot better second hand as well, frankly only a bloody idiot would go out and spend £3k+ on a new bike (never mind a frame!) unless they were at the top of their game. But you don’t have to be to enjoy it.

Yeah I get that there are huge swathes of the country with no DH and I get the arguments coming from that perspective but seriously, 22 entrants from the WHOLE of Scotland? You must be kidding me?

Compare the number of threads for the DH WC that just finished in one of the closest and open seasons to date vs the multiple threads on the front page for a road bike race.

On a mountain biking forum as well.

Didn’t want to go there but… …yeah…

Bike? Commencal Supreme V.3 €2299 or a Norco Aurum for £2099. People manage to spend the same on n+1 fat bikes, gravel bikes, woodburners and whatever other stuff is in fashion.

That is true, but you have to fill a field in order to make it viable, and in order to do that, you need to cater to everyone, those who have a woodburner, gravel bike and 10 others, and those who have 1 bike. Enduro caters to the 1 bike crowd as much as the 10 bike crowd, and thats (probably) why its doing ok. I would also say thats why the ‘elite’ enduro series have gone pop over the last few years – over reliance on big fields that don’t show when the pricing/overall costs go up too much, and dare I say it the tracks get too hard.

Intetesting what you say about Scotland though… different story I guess, or was a reasonable contingent coming from south of the border. Also, entries are a domino effect I reckon. I’d probably not raced much top end DH if I didn’t have friends that did. If they left the scene, I wouldn’t have gone. As it was we all kind of left at the same time as kids etc. came around, but it was a big factor for me. 2 or 3 people stopping racing would have been enough to stop me too.

It has priced itself out the market; it is no longer the big thing about mountain biking; there is more options now; there are things perceived to be better value for money; mountain biking constantly evolves – 30 years ago it was 1 bike with Xc, dh, uphill and trials, 20 years ago it was massive XC fields, 10 years ago it was DH, now it is Enduro.

lol and as if on cue I spot this:

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/psa-orange-five

Same price as a DH bike. So how’s that “out the market”?

Judging by how many triple clamp, full on DH bikes I’ve seen the last week, they’re all out in the Alps, so leaving no spare DH bikes to ride back in the UK. 😆

It’s just too hard and I’m too old!

Two pages and only one passing reference to STRAVA?

As others said, why pay lots of money to be the mid pack cash-cow on some remote hillside when your local trail can now provide the same buzz for free?

The trails themselves seem as busy as ever.

I have a DH bike mainly for uplift days; modern trail and enduro bikes are massively capable and can pretty much handle the Uak, but there is something hugely fun about battering down a trail on a big bike.

I’ve done a few local races with no uplift; great fun but even at that level there’s a big gap between dudes like me who have a big bike and do the race for a bit of fun and the dudes who are actually quick. I guess the gulf is even bigger once you get to SDS / BDS level. I wouldn’t enter a bigger race, because I’d be a back marker.

Never done a DH race. Apart from not really having the skills, I just know that all the hanging around would do my nut.

Enduro is much more appealing – a decent ride that involves some racing.

I guess there are more people than ever taking part in gravity racing right now, if you put DH and enduro together?

Latest plea for SDA entries;
https://www.facebook.com/Scottish.Downhill.Association/

Screw enduro (well racing in the UK generally, there’s always exceptions), is pretty much timed xc trails to me, basically if you pedal everywhere you win.

In my limited racing experience, prefer a dh race.

But I’m no racer, my attraction to either is pretty minimal.

I’m really appreciating the likes of 50to01 are influencing things, just go out and enjoy your bike, it’s not serious, a mtb is a toy to go out playing on. Can see the yoof headed more this way too, leading to all forms of racing declining, which is cool with me.

Any form of Willy waving or ego massaging from what you achieve on a bike is ridiculous, that’s the reason I see people racing or using Strava for a lot of the time.

Screw enduro (well racing in the UK generally, there’s always exceptions), is pretty much timed xc trails to me, basically if you pedal everywhere you win.

I’d like to see you pedalling down prospacker after it’s rained for 3 days, and 200 folk have been down it before you.

You big riding god you.

Screw enduro (well racing in the UK generally, there’s always exceptions), is pretty much timed xc trails to me, basically if you pedal everywhere you win.

Takes a lot of skill to pedal everywhere, but yes what a shocker even gravity events require fitness, take a look at what the DH guys are doing. You won’t do well in any discipline unless your fit. Having tried some of the golfie trails pedalling won’t win you the race there, it might lose you the race.

I think there are a number of factors.
There are still plenty of people that are into DH but the quality of long travel trail bikes has probably reduced the number of people at the less serious end as they are so much less restricted in terms of access of where and what you can ride and have fun on.
Another issue is probably the entry requirements of the BDS, while its good to have the premier series in the country more elite focused, it is at the expense of a lot of the people who make up and support the scene. These are the people who actually pay for their own entries and kit and also come to enjoy the event.
The fact that there are no longer UCI points available, means that there also also no incentive for mid pack elites to be there either, if there is a field stacked full of top World Cup riders competing, then they have no chance of getting the points they need to race a World Cup. They are better off going abroad to race and at least get the chance of riding in some decent weather.
The BDS has had some bad luck with weather conditions, especially at some of the Scottish races, which has had an effect, with people not keen on driving all the way to Fort William to get hardly any runs.
There has been a slight downturn in popularity overall and even the Pearce series which sold out in 3 minutes two years ago has entries available for the last three rounds.
The (BDS) races are expensive but with the ever increasing amount of safety regs and requirements that the riders see as essential, I don’t see how they could be any cheaper. Riders always want more uplift vehicles, more bike washes etc, etc but never want to pay any more for them.
I personally think that they have done a great job recently and provided great events at a reasonable value for money.

to me i think it’s the skill and close times and danger that put a lot of dh. i think dh is still the pinnacle of mountain biking and watch all the races on red bull. but i don’t have a dh bike anymore and wouldn’t even consider entering as there were always the few that were so far ahead of the field, it was just demoralising and pointless. enduro is a better form of xc and with the length and variation of tracks the times can shuffle from stage to stage, its like a mini series in one event. the atmosphere at races is better and is within the skill level and danger side that a lot more people are comfortable with. I just hope there will always be the young talent coming through in dh to keep the wc alive.

deanfbm – Member

Screw enduro (well racing in the UK generally, there’s always exceptions), is pretty much timed xc trails to me, basically if you pedal everywhere you win.

I think respectfully that’s because you have no idea what you’re talking about. Ask yourself, what’s the difference between riding this in a dh race or an enduro? (I’ve raced it in an SDA race and an EWS stage, when the inners dh was the easiest stage of the day)

what’s the difference between riding this in a DH race or an enduro? (

For you personally? From the sounds of things. Possibly nothing.
But do you honestly think Leov’s EWS time would be the same on that stage as it would had it been an identically taped UCI World Cup held on the same track?

Shitey sloggy/uphill sections as part of a gravity event aside. The biggest difference between an Enduro and DH race as I see it is utilisation of allotted practice.
Traditionally Downhill racing is meant to be all down to that one final run. Over the course of a DH event you have a set time to scope out the taped course beforehand, decide line choices/options, ground consistency. risk Vs glory etc. Set time to practice lines, confirm ground consistency/condition, make equipment choice etc. piece it all together and memorise the run you’d like to put down as perfectly as possible when the beeps start.
Enduro is clearly more about consistency over the various stages. Yes. the format is somewhat similar. Only minimal practice *seems* to be the order of the day where allotted practice times allow not much more than a sighting run of each stage to learn the stages, note tricky sections, where to rest/push/stay safe etc. to prepare yourself for race day.

Those differences probably sound quite subtle don’t they? The way they play out can actually be pretty HUGE.
DH is all about fractions of a second throughout one run. Enduro (naturally) is about Seconds per stage. Perhaps minutes per race.
They are different disciplines and as such require a different approach. This to me is so obvious I’m not even sure why anyone argues about it.

Out of interest. Where did you place in each discipline on that “easy” stage in each race?

.

* for the purpose of the point I’m trying to explain here. I’ve chosen to ignore the fact a large portion of the UK field head out sneakily practising (or even built) the race stages weeks/months beforehand.

Easier to fit in trips to the burger van between runs at DH races too

I think everyone is pretty much on the money here… the rise of enduro etc etc but there are a few other bits to point out…

– When we started racing 4 years ago all the big teams used to turn up to the BDS with their trucks etc. In that time DH has gone global & for the top level riders it’s now all about the world cups. Now, you’re lucky to get one or two teams at a National. This kinda happened at the same time Si put the price up & tried to steer it towards being a more elite series so the 2 things worked against each other. Feel sorry for Si on this as he was trying to do the right thing.

– Moelfre cancelled because of numbers… Have heard that’s a smokescreen for something else. Not saying numbers were great but…

– Rumours abound that there will be big changes at the end of the season…

Does anyone think the lack of UCI points on offer has a bearing? (or has that changed)

It was pretty sad for me as a fan to see someone like Steve Peat having to go abroad to try to get enough points to race, it must be pretty disheartening for the young and keen riders dreaming of one-day being the next Danny Hart or Rachel Atherton knowing however well they do, they’ll need to find even more money and time just to get to another national series to hope to get some points?

I’ve not read all of this, but from the perspective of someone who’s been mountain biking longer than some of the people in my team at work have been alive, my view is:
1. It’s cyclical. 20 years ago everyone raced XC as it was where you met fellow riders, rode places you wouldn’t normally and it was the heart of the scene. In the 90’s this focus moved to DH, it was on TV briefly and is/was the pinnacle of the sport. Now Enduro is where people are looking.
2. The internet. Related to the above, no-one needs to go to races to feel part of a scene as it exists on places like here and Pink Bike. You can find new trails online, talk to people, exchange bike advice, etc.
3. Uplifts. I’m not sure a lot of people (myself included) ever really wanted to race DH, more they just didn’t want to push up hill and wanted to ride on a nice track. Now you can do that at an uplift day, you’ll get more rides, you can talk to other people and you can check your times on Strava.
4. Enduro. I’ve raced XC in the past as that was all that was there. Then I raced DH as I didn’t want to race XC, now if I was racing it’d be Enduro as that to be is just a competitive version of the riding I, and most people I know, do. DH is now the preserve of specialists, “normal” riders won’t enter the races like they used to.
5. Kit. As it’s now the preserve of specialists the perception is that you need lots of kit and expensive bikes. I raced DH on a hardtail with bigger rotors and a cheap full face, this was entirely normal for a lot of the field. Now, rightly or wrongly, the view is that you need an 8″ travel beast, full body suit and 3 different compounds of tyres.
6. The tracks. Everyone says they want hard tracks but what that means is the locations are limited and “normal” riders can’t/don’t want to ride them. Yes, harder tracks help the best get better but it also excludes a lot of people.

Bit of a brain dump but there may be some sense in there.

TBH Lunge I think that’s a pretty good summary of all the factors affecting modern UK-DH racing…

£90 to race BDS and you have to have a BC Racing licence

To compete in ANY BC endorsed road event you need a licence…MTB has it easy

gwurk – Member

But do you honestly think Leov’s EWS time would be the same on that stage as it would had it been an identically taped UCI World Cup held on the same track?

Um, no. What has that got to do with the point though?

I think respectfully that’s because you have no idea what you’re talking about. Ask yourself, what’s the difference between riding this in a dh race or an enduro? (I’ve raced it in an SDA race and an EWS stage, when the inners dh was the easiest stage of the day)

Be fair though, the are the exceptions rather than the norm, I’m down sawth, there’s the southern enduros, fod, Welsh gravity, they’re all loosely trail center or trail center based, yes there’s always that one section or even one run that’s tricky, but easily cancelled out if you soon like buggery on the straight forward stuff. Though heard the last southern enduro was tricky all around.

I’m extra cynical because I really don’t enjoy racing, embodies “good riders are the fast riders” and breeds mediocre head down pedalling looking at the giant sat nav checking heart rates and jizzing all over Strava data in some enduro goggles.

If you’re out smiling, doing what you fancy, then you’re winning.