3 pages on – still no list of great Tory legislation.

Tragically deep down inside, I cannot bear the thought of the Tory Party defeating even a 'New Labour' government – the consequences for ordinary people will be devastating. It has to be done however. And British politics must move forward.

It's going to take a major change for the UK population to vote in anything even slightly "different" from what we have in the three parties. Quite a few on here see the similarities between them and complain about it, but what are you going to do about it?

The problem is the country is over populated with the middle class. Such dominance from a particular set has essentially created a One party state.

It's depressing.

But I also don't believe in excessively taxing mobility (directly or indirectly), which also seems to upset the Singletrack lefties.

I have yet to find a someone who had the opportunity to become upwardly mobile and the the potential wealth that it brings who turned round and said they'd rather stay where they are because of the tax system.

It's going to take a major change for the UK population to vote in anything even slightly "different" from what we have in the three parties. Quite a few on here see the similarities between them and complain about it, but what are you going to do about it?

That is because the three major parties are only concerned with keeping the floating voters happy……..that tiny group of daft feckers, who can never make up their minds which way to vote.

I have immeasurably more respect for someone who votes Tory all their lives, than someone who votes differently every election. Voting isn't like choosing a new pair of **** shoes.

It's time the major parties ignored the "Don't Knows", and stopped trying to appear to be all things to them.

Any Labour supporters on here who are going to support Labour at the election are arseholes. You should either abstain, vote Liberal or spoil your vote.

Look what you would be encouraging:

http://www.debtbombshell.com/

If you don't understand what this means, or that we have been essentially, as an economy living on a credit card with a false horizon then you really shouldnt be allowed to have a vote.

still no list of great Tory legislation.

If it's there, it won't be a great list 😀

If the Tories are so in touch with their social conscience, can anyone tell me what legislation they plan to implement [should they be returned] to help the plight of all these people that Duncan Smith has been studying?
Lifting the inheritance tax to £1m [£2m for couples] will be a great help, 50" plasma fetch quite a premium at Cash Converters I hear 😕

They will always show their true colours & what they think of ordinary people

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/mar/13/cameron-pressure-identify-poverty-bill

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8521705.stm

BNP, Tory, UKIP – all the same, just 3 different shades of blue

BNP, Tory, UKIP

now that really IS insulting. Implying a tory voter is akin to a BNP voter? Get real.

now that really IS insulting. Implying a tory voter is akin to a BNP voter?

It's just branding isn't it?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2218998.stm

You are more likely to get BNP voters from disaffected (Labour) working class areas.

Professional people would class themselves as more 'right of the centre' Tory.

Call that a sweeping generalisation but I feel its true.

now that really IS insulting. Implying a tory voter is akin to a BNP voter? Get real

I was referring to the party members rather than the voters

again that's still very unfair.

Ive met the prospective conservative party candidate for our constituency twice* and she definitely wasnt shouting "darkies out" or anything.

* once was doorstepped, second was at a local Institute of Directors event. Never seen the labour candidate around… TBH there's no point in even voting in our constituency since its blue to the core. That's no bad thing given its a rural one and that none of the alternative parties even recognise the existence of rural England….

There's organisations like the Swinton Circle & the Monday club & loads of others that have links to both the Tories & the BNP

John Major's government was responsible for a fairly sizable part of the Northern Ireland peace process.

Privatisation wasn't all bad – rail and water were a step too far, agreed, but we're better off for having private telecom, energy companies…

Ernie said a little earlier:

no major reform which has benefited the lives of ordinary people in the last 100 years, has come from a Tory government. They have all come from Labour governments.

Police and Criminal Evidence act 1984 – replacing the old sus laws and making huge inroads to tackling racism and corruption in the police and a real leap in civil liberties.

Employment acts of the 70's 80's and 90's – got rid of the closed shop, meaning you were no longer forced to be part of a union to work somewhere, restricted wildcat and unofficial strikes, so there had to be a formal ballot before walking out, the general public are no longer held to ransom by a small bunch of trotskyite union officials who constantly demand more for less – you can get the bus into town without wondering if they'll still be running in the afternoon!

I would endorse the PACE suggestion…and half of the content of the employment reform laws of the 70s and 80s. Good point.

PACE was hardly a 'new idea' the Tories came up with, as the foundations to such an act date back more than 10 years before it's implementation.

As for Employment reform; much of those Tory 'reforms' gave back loads of power to employers, and took away many workers' rights, which had taken decades to campaign for in the first place. Merely undid a lot of good work. And has led to a situation where membership of a union is seen as almost as bad as belonging to a Far-Right Wing organisation…

The progressive demonisation of Socialist ideology has created a culture of greed and selfishness, and led to the Gimme Gimme Gimme (A Man After Midnight) I Want It Now reliance on credit and the Never-Never. People have become too shortsighted to see the long game; more intent on keeping up appearances, than they are in putting a bit by for a rainy day. And when people overstretch themselves, they blame anyone but themselves.

As has been proven by this 'debate'; it's mainly Left-Wing 'Socialist' reforms that have benefitted the majority of people in the UK. Trouble with the Tories, is they like being wealthy minority.

God help us if the Proles ever gain Enlightenment, eh? They might get ideas above their station…

>People have become too shortsighted to see the long game; more intent on keeping up appearances, than they are in putting a bit by for a rainy day. And when people overstretch themselves, they blame anyone but themselves.

Is that Gordon Brown ?

Is that Gordon Brown ?

yep & Tony Blair & John Major & Thatcher & Callaghan & Heath & Wilson …………………………………………

So what are the implicatinNs for us Northern Britons when the parliament is hung? Since they have built in time for horse-tradng. Will we still be able to sponge like hell off our Southern betters?

Zulu-Eleven – Member

Ernie said a little earlier:

no major reform which has benefited the lives of ordinary people in the last 100 years, has come from a Tory government. They have all come from Labour governments.

Police and Criminal Evidence act 1984 – replacing the old sus laws and making huge inroads to tackling racism and corruption in the police and a real leap in civil liberties.

Employment acts of the 70's 80's and 90's

Ratty you disappoint me. I was hoping you would furnish with a long list of great Tory reforms which have benefited the lives of ordinary people in the last 100 years 😐

Still, you appear not to understand the concept of "reforms which have benefited the lives of ordinary people". So that, apart from the fact that there aren't any Tory ones, could be part of the problem.

Yes Tory governments have been known to occasionally do the correct thing. The repealing of an antiquated and archaic law, is an example of that. But that absurd law should never have still been on the statute book in the first place.

And it was only because of constant and unrelenting pressure from the scruffy leftie trots (which you despise so much) and the odd major riot, that the government felt compelled to repeal it. You must have been mortified mate. I don't remember many delegates at Tory Party conferences getting up and demanding that the Sus law be scrapped.

Of course whilst it represented a welcome change in the law, it was hardly in the league of equal pay legislation, or the creation of the National Health Service – where are your great Tory reforms ?

But the again ratty I guess you don't see the reforms of past Labour government as "great" reforms. Because you and your mates on the far right, for example, hate the National Health Service.

In fact your guru and political mentor Dan Hannan, likes to trot around the world denouncing the NHS as a "60 year old failed experiment".

And only a Tory would want to suggest that the most repressive employment legislation in the Western World, introduced to maintain the power and grip of big business, somehow benefits ordinary working people.

PACE was hardly a 'new idea' the Tories came up with, as the foundations to such an act date back more than 10 years before it's implementation.

I think to be consistent with my earlier bashing of the Tories' supposed invention of the NHS: you don't get a medal for thinking about running a marathon.

What, like the Tories invented the NHS?

Don't be silly.

Like the tories ever gave a shit about the people of Britain. Self serving scum.

ffs, rtft, mate! I suggested the NHS as one of Labour's great achievements, another poster claimed a Tory had had the idea first. Well, even if it were true, tough shit – it's achieving something that counts on the scoreboard, not thinking about it. Ditto PACE.

Ernie – do you honestly and truly believe that the lives of 'ordinary working people' were benefitted by the actions of the unions in the late 1970's?

Of course not, 'ordinary working people' were made to suffer by the I'm alright Jack approach of union officials – are you really trying to claim that the closed shop was in the interest of ordinary workers? People actually being sacked from jobs because they were not union members? come on…You claim laws were introduced to 'maintain the power and grip of big business', But the fact is that it wasn't 'big business' who was subjected to the worst of the strike action, it was the government owned monopolies who repeatedly held crippling strikes, state employees quite literally trying to hold the country to ransom. The unions knew even then that there was no 'risk', you cannot kill the goose that laid the golden egg in the same way as you can with private or 'big' business.

Personally, I don't really think that passing more laws onto an already crammed statute book is something to be commended – I find the damage caused by the laws that Labour have introduced far more concerning than the laws that the Conservatives have not introduced – everything from ASBO's (criminalising non criminal behaviour) to 'anti terror' laws and removing the need for juries or open inquests

Heres were we enter the problem with Socialism, every socialist government veers sharply into the area of state control, not only of the facilities, but of the people, you ask me to deliver a list of "great reforms" of the tories, but all I can see is a huge list of horrific, punitive and controlling restrictions of civil liberties delivered by the Labour party.

Like the tories ever gave a shit about the people of Britain. Self serving scum.

IMO those that can make it in business and are interested in maximising their own wealth would not go into politics. I find it hard to imagine someone going into politics who isn't interested in improving the nation in some way. Having said that Blair has come out of it rather well – but he's a leftie…right?

Conservatives: Don't have Andy Burnham slithering around at the party conferences.

And to think, I voted for him into the council many years back because I was basing my choice on who had the fittest wife and look where that has got us.

every socialist government veers sharply into the area of state control

You must be one of the last people in the UK to consider the Labour party socialist!

Hey that's a good point – New Labour is a different beast so can't blame/praise them for anything they did before Thatch.

That's a very good point. I wish I had been thinking of it when I made that last post!

IMO those that can make it in business and are interested in maximising their own wealth would not go into politics.

Money isn't the only reason people go into politics – there's the lure of power, people listening to what you're saying, travel, pictures in the paper. You don't have to be greedy to be self-serving: you could also be vain, delusional, megalomaniacal…

Ooh that Blair….

all I can see is a huge list of horrific, punitive and controlling restrictions of civil liberties delivered by the Labour party.

Just shows how incredibly blinkered your view is then.

NHS? Minimum wage? 😕

So this NHS thing – would it be better if we paid something for the common things? Say GP visits? That would reduce the numbers of old folk going in for a chat or those who've got a bit of a cold, and also reduce the number of those not turning up for an appointment maybe?

Tories:

Right to buy on council houses. Amazed that hasn't come up yet.
Smashed the unions to hell, which helped to make British industry competitive again.
The Big Bang. One of the key things that made London a finance hub, and whatever you think about bankers, they contribute a hell of a lot to UK GDP.
The veto.

Labour:
Freedom of Information act.
Free access to museums.
A lot of good intentioned policies which have been hung onto well beyond the point where they were obviously not functioning. Surestart for one (govt's own reports say it doesn't work!), and family tax credits for another. In my view, you shouldn't pay tax on the first £10k you earn, rather than have a method of claiming back tax that's so complicated that it reduces people to tears and gets the state involved in clawing back overpayments from the poorest people in society.

Right to buy on council houses. Amazed that hasn't come up yet.

It has – was it really a good thing?

Smashed the unions to hell, which helped to make British industry competitive again.

Did it?

The Big Bang. One of the key things that made London a finance hub, and whatever you think about bankers, they contribute a hell of a lot to UK GDP.

And look where that's got us.

but all I can see is a huge list of horrific, punitive and controlling restrictions of civil liberties delivered by the Labour party

HAHA! Credibility FAIL!

You need to really learn the concept of horrific restrictions on civil liberties, try talking to someone from another country. Some people don't know they are bloody well born aye.

It's easy to bang on about some theoretical restrictions on your daily lives. What about the right to not be blown up? How would you sort that out Einstein?

It seems to me that the reason some people argue so bitterly about politics is that they really don't understand how the system works. It's a no-win situation, whoever is in power, so you can stand there on the outside and whinge all you like.. Frankly, that's been getting old ever since I can remember.

Constructive debate and pragmatic criticism is good. Wild hyperbole isn't.

It's easy to bang on about some theoretical restrictions on your daily lives. What about the right to not be blown up? How would you sort that out Einstein?

Come off it. Islamic terrorism does not exist in the form or scale described in the media and by the government.

If it did, we'd be living in total chaos.

As a comparison, the IRA was riddled with informants, but still managed some form of attack, on average once a fortnight, for YEARS. And they often went for difficult targets, bumping off coppers, soldiers, barracks etc.

Well Grum, to be fair the discussions already covered the NHS – although I think that if we're all being honest here, the people who should really take credit for the NHS and the welfare state are the liberal party, with the introduction of the 1911 national insurance act by Lloyd-George as part of Asquith's government, plus the fact that Beveridge, the originator of the NHS, was a Liberal!

So what about this then?

all I can see is a huge list of horrific, punitive and controlling restrictions of civil liberties delivered by the Labour party.

What are these 'horrific, punitive and controlling' measures? It's pretty much like living in Iran or North Korea really isn't it. 🙄

Molgrips/ Grum:

in the last couple of years we've seen the loss of the right to trial by jury, the loss of open independent inquests and the internment of people without evidence on the word of a politician, we've replaced courts with on the spot fines and sent people to prison for five years for suffering from mental health problems (ASBO's) – sorry, thats not theoretical and wild eyed rhetoric!

We;'ve seen the murder of people on our soil being covered up by the government (David Kelly) entry into hostile wars of aggression and breach of numerous international laws – all under the supreme labour government.

Well, where do we start?

RIP act, which overturned the burden of proof? And enabled near enough any government body to launch surveillance operations? Wholesale monitoring of internet and telecoms use?
Detention without charge?
One of the highest densities of CCTV cameras in the world?
Terrorism acts that are so broadly worded that almost anyone can be detained as a terrorist?
Repeated supression of legitimate political protest?

We are not yet living in North Korea, but thanks to the laws and systems the Labour goverment have set up, it wouldn't be very difficult to arrange.

One of the key things to me is that even if you feel that your day to day activities are not being curtailled by the government (I don't go on political protests for example), the government has enough information about a fair proportion of the population that they could blackmail them or destroy their lives if the need arose. Clicked on an "special interest" grumble site by accident once? Shagging someone who's not your wife? The government could quite easily find out, should they want to.