Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 40 total)
  • Whacking pay cut, would you?
  • wait4me
    Full Member

    Rapidly approaching 50. Been in same industry since school and it’s rapidly dying on its backside (print). No hope of career advancement unless I went into management which I’ve no intention of.

    Been checking the job sites for ages and it’s pretty apparent that I’m going to be starting at the bottom pay wise if I change direction. Hardly surprising as I’m under skilled and under educated. So what to do, carry on riding the current wave on reasonable money until I’m eventually surplus to requirements, or make the move thinking I’ve absolutely no chance of retraining as late 40’s become mid 50’s?

    Am sure I’m far from the only person in this position. It’s a bitter pill whatever.

    perchypanther
    Free Member

    Hardly surprising as I’m under skilled and under educated. So what to do, carry on riding the current wave on reasonable money until I’m eventually surplus to requirements, or make the move thinking I’ve absolutely no chance of retraining as late 40’s become mid 50’s?

    Ride the current wave whilst you improve your skills and education in your own time.

    Something like an IOSH or NEBOSH course would give you a qualification that is transferable between many industries.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    Tough times

    Hang on, save as much as you can (for inevitable layoff) GET MORE SKILLS now (night school etc ?)

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    fifeandy
    Free Member

    +1 for hanging on and saving(or paying off as much mortgage) as possible in the meantime.

    wait4me
    Full Member

    My problem is I’m so lacking in imagination. I did a couple of years of a degree at night school almost 20 years ago, but for one reason or another I didn’t complete it. Often wonder if it’d have opened doors or if I’d have just been a printer with a degree. Would help if I had some kind of plan. Anyone got one?

    badnewz
    Free Member

    Print industry has been dying, but I attended an event on the future of retail and one of the speakers said he thought it would grow again.
    This is because there is a lot of innovation bridging online-offline, e.g. old-skool style posters advertising gigs, which you can swipe your mobile across to book.
    He said a load of print companies have been selling off their printers but they might be worth a few bob soon.

    P-Jay
    Free Member

    Tough times

    Hang on, save as much as you can (for inevitable layoff) GET MORE SKILLS now (night school etc ?)

    Oh dear, but I’m going to have to agree with Jamba.

    Option 1 is take a massive pay-cut, but more than that a big cut in responsibilities and frankly ‘status’ to work with a bunch of kids for a couple of years and hope you can upskill in job to get you back when you should be, against a bunch of faster to learn, hungrier kids.

    Option 2 – keep your income, give up some free time and hopefully side-step into a fresher industry.

    Saying that Print has been supposedly dead for years, yet here it still is – will it finally keel over in the next 15 years?

    the-muffin-man
    Full Member

    Am sure I’m far from the only person in this position. It’s a bitter pill whatever.

    I’m in an identical position, age and the print trade too!

    I don’t mind starting at the bottom and working up, but I don’t know which trades you can do this is now. It seems if you’re at the bottom you stay there.

    the-muffin-man
    Full Member

    Saying that Print has been supposedly dead for years, yet here it still is – will it finally keel over in the next 15 years?

    No it will still be here for many more years and decades to come – but the whole sector is getting more and more automated. And it’s a race to the bottom with prices.

    You either need to be massive and invest millions, or a 1 man band, buy print in and live on an OK wage.

    wait4me
    Full Member

    Probably won’t die, but my skills are looking like an anachronism as technology moves towards green button operation. I’m still valued to a degree but I can see the signs that is changing and before long the ability to work for minimum wage will be all important.

    I’ve always stayed ahead of change and done reasonably well because of that, but these days I’m seeing options in the industry looking far more limited.

    footflaps
    Full Member

    Rapidly approaching 50. Been in same industry since school and it’s rapidly dying on its backside (print).

    Friend was in same situation (print) and 40s. He retrained as a plumber and hasn’t looked back….

    wait4me
    Full Member

    Hello Muffin Man. Tough isn’t it.

    binners
    Full Member

    How about better utilising your skills? What exactly is it you do within the print industry? And where are you based?

    Any chance you could do something like freelance as an artworker. There’s always loads of demand for those in places like Manchester. And it’s pretty good hourly rates if you know what you’re doing

    stevextc
    Free Member

    Can you AFFORD a pay cut ???
    If the answer isn’t yes then your options are more limited or at least different

    Can you gain transferrable skills in your current job or even industry ??? (i.e. could you possibly gain experience in online publishing)

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    Do you enjoy what you do?

    If so, then stick with it while you retrain ready for when that day comes. It may never.

    If you don’t enjoy it, get out into something you do. Although you say you have no skills, you have 25+ years of working experience and even if you get onto the lower rungs of a ladder initially your capability will take you up it.

    I always reckon people have 3 main attributes when it comes to work.

    1/ Your actual capability – are you a numbers person, a people person, a sleeves up and doing or a strategist, etc. These are all useful irrespective of industry.

    2/ Your experience – you know print, i know chemistry, others know other stuff.

    Within reason these two are learnable / trainable. OK, if you aren’t numerate it might not be time to consider accountancy, but YKWIM. You can learn skills and learn the industry to apply them in.

    3/ is the critical one – what sort of a person are you; will you fit in with the company or will someone want to kill you within the first week? Because this isn’t really trainable (within reason) and people can’t easily change who they are / how they are.

    So find something you want to do and you already hopefully have 1 and 3 covered, just convince the interviewers why 2 isn’t an issue / close that gap by doing courses already.

    Good luck!

    seadog101
    Full Member

    Similar situation here too. My job would normally lead to an easier shore based role later in your career, rather than being at sea.
    However that option isn’t really happening just now as the UK – Shipping (offshore oil and gas) is shrivelling massively. Also, I only have a Chief Mate’s license, and not a Master’s, which is what is normally wanted.

    Considering training to add non-seafarer qualifications to the experience. OSH stuff is looking like a good plan right now. Transferable skills, and lots of experience of how it shouldn’t be done!

    wait4me
    Full Member

    Binners, I used to be a film planner the Mac artworker and colour and creative retoucher. I then found myself running digital presses. Become a bit of a dead end, but a lot of the guys I worked with are no longer in the industry so I can’t knock it too much.

    Geography doesn’t help me either; live in SE but a long trek to London. Had a spell freelancing and enjoyed it. Certainly something I’d consider, big fear is you end up not developing new skills as nobody is prepared to pay you to train.

    wait4me
    Full Member

    And thanks for advice so far. I tend to become a bit blinked and negative, a prod in the right direction is appreciated.

    the-muffin-man
    Full Member

    Hello Muffin Man. Tough isn’t it.

    Certainly is! I’ve been in the trade since I was 15. Left school with sod-all qualifications and went straight to work in my dad’s print firm.

    I’m primarly an artworker/large format/digital press operator now – but can turn my hand to pretty much any print finishing task too. The only press I’ve ever run was an old Rotaprint though, when they were the jobbing press of choice!…

    Plumbing would be good if it weren’t for me knees (and chronic fear of spiders!) 😀

    wait4me – could you look at one of the bigger printers running Indigo presses?

    Binners – where do you find out about the artworking jobs? I pride myself on my attention to detail when preparing files for print (comes from my old dark-room days when you only got one chance!), but I wouldn’t call myself a designer.

    perchypanther
    Free Member

    big fear is you end up not developing new skills as nobody is prepared to pay you to train.

    Start living on the reduced salary now whilst retaining your existing job. Spend the money you save on training yourself.

    fitnessischeating
    Free Member

    I took quite a pay cut to move industry, however I wasn’t on “that” much anyway, and I was still pretty young.

    Even so I found it difficult to adjust, you get into the habit of living to your means (or I did) and the reduced pay, despite me being far from the poverty line left me feeling short of money for years until I got back to (and beyond) what I was on.

    The advice is sound, to train/educate whist employed and then try to move in higher up… however bear in mind, can you move to a job you want to now? will work be available in ‘that’ job you want in a few years time (a bird in the hand and all)
    where do your financial commitments lie…. can you afford the pay cut, what about a few years later, can you still afford the pay cut.

    Late 40’s doesn’t seem too old to put off most potential employers, on no real expertise, I would be tempted to suggest, if you can find a job you want to do, go for it now rather than later.

    that is unless your in line for a big redundancy pay out if the worst happens…

    wait4me
    Full Member

    MM. That’s what I’m doing! Sadly they’re becoming so simple to operate I think I’d struggle to justify my wage these days.

    Retraining definitely the answer.

    mariner
    Free Member

    Have you got a pension where you are and what would happen to that?
    If you stay what sort of redundancy package would you get?
    Do they offer voluntary packages?
    What does a re training course look like as regards time and income?

    binners
    Full Member

    I pride myself on my attention to detail when preparing files for print (comes from my old dark-room days when you only got one chance!), but I wouldn’t call myself a designer.

    There is loads of demand out there for artworkers with exactly that skill set. And there always will be sorting out the slap-dash work of lazy-arse designers 😉

    Where are you MM? If you want to drop an email (address in profile) I’ll be happy to put you in touch with some really good people and give you any advice I can

    moonwrasse
    Free Member

    See if you can get into the flexo or digital label market, Its booming atm.
    Flatsheet litho is dying on its arse. 30 plus years in the trade. Started off in flatsheet. now in labels. never been so busy.

    binners
    Full Member

    The print industry isn’t dying. It’s just changing very, very rapidly as digital technology becomes more advanced. So the design industry that supports it is changing rapidly too. I find myself spending a lot of time doing bespoke small-run digital jobs, normally to support web based work.

    The days of spending ages designing a publication that then got sent to a 120,00 print run are long gone. But there is still a demand for print. It’s just changing.

    All the print designers and artworkers I know are stacked out with work! I know I am!

    willjones
    Free Member

    How does reframing the scenario work for you, basing decisions on fulfilment and meeting outgoings rather than meeting or building on current income? Will your outgoings drop as you get older (i.e. build capacity for a change in direction?)

    mooman
    Free Member

    The odds are that you will be expected to work until your late 60`s … so you got best part of another 20 years left to work. And the last 20 years will probably be the most difficult to do manual work too.
    I think you still got time to retrain – you need to find a job you can physically do until retirement … and one you`ll enjoy too.

    thecaptain
    Free Member

    I’d suggest keep your head down build your savings up and just plan to retire when the inevitable happens. Does require the possibility of a cheap lifestyle post-job though (but you can always top up with min wage jobs as necessary).

    TheBrick
    Free Member

    Keep going while having a bit of training. If you are good and flexible being part of a contracting industry is not all bad. You can find niche work or be that guy that knows how to run machine XXX. Less possible for PAYE work but good for contacting.

    I know one guy that knows some obscure mainframe environment. Get plenty of work even though it “sided” years ago. Another who is a machinist and amongst other work goes into sfirms to do runs old machines.

    plyphon
    Free Member

    Signwriting always seems to be busy. I know a guy who does his own stuff (vans, small shop bits, etc) and is always busy and does well.

    johndoh
    Free Member

    The print industry isn’t dying. It’s just changing very, very rapidly as digital technology becomes more advanced.

    This. When I first graduated there were typesetters, repro houses, plate makers, printers, finishers, designers and artworkers all involved in a single job. Then there was the supply trade – Artboard, Letraset, masking tape, scalpel, magic tape, Magic Markers, film overlays, red mask etc etc etc.

    Now I could do the same job as all those people on a low spec Macbook Air whilst sat at a kitchen table.

    There will always be a need for print, just not as high as it once was and with fewer people required to do any single job.

    Fortunately (as an artworker/designer) I saw the way the industry was shrinking some 18/20 years ago and focused on web design. One of the most-respected printers that the entire of the creative industry in the Leeds/Bradford/Harrogate district used at one time or another quite recently sold up to what was originally a much smaller operation but one that saw the need to adapt much earlier and is now thriving as they are one of the few ducks still sat in the pond.

    wait4me
    Full Member

    I won’t argue that the print industry isn’t on its death bed yet. What I would say is that things aren’t so rosy for those employed in it. Technology has made the job semi-unskilled. New starters in my company are by and large either what can be laughably called apprentices, or are migrants that are happy to work on minimum wage. There’s a pool of skilled workers that don’t really get a look in for jobs unless they’re prepared to work for a pittance.

    So the writing I see on the wall isn’t necessary for the industry, just for dinosaurs like me employed in it.

    johndoh
    Free Member

    A friend of mine is in specialist packaging print (after leaving the traditional print industry) and is doing pretty well – it’s all high-end hand-finished product packaging production and still very much a skilled job as opposed to, as you say, the automation of digital print.

    binners
    Full Member

    That’s why I’d look to artworking. That’s a skill! You can’t just get any old monkey to do that. And the pay reflects that. As does the continued demand. Any half decent freelance artworker will be on good money. I’d say an absolute minimum of 20 quid PH in the south east

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    My 2p

    Got made redundant last year at 30 after 8 years working on oil&gas/petrochemical design projects with a degree in process engineering. So I was pretty much qualified for that role and that only. Which is great because the pay was fantastic for a 20-something!

    Spent about 8 months jumping between JSA and temporary jobs before starting working in TV production. Day job in the office is crap pay (minimum wage) but I get to keep the net of any contracted work I do for the company which is fairly well paid so a few days of that a month tops my wages upto something a bit more average.

    I would definitely not quit a job now intending to look for another entry level position. No one believes you want to take a paycut and would rather offer the role to someone fresh out of collage. Do whatever training course you want/need to do for a new role now before you quit, at least then you look serious at an interview. You might even be able to jump the gun and go in a few pay grades higher if you have some transferable skills (project management, man management, production planning).

    FWIW I’d expect to see the pay of crap jobs like warehousing going up in the next few months as Brexit continues to hit, even after Christmas I was turning them down. Which will hopefully drive up wages allround.

    the-muffin-man
    Full Member

    Where are you MM? If you want to drop an email (address in profile) I’ll be happy to put you in touch with some really good people and give you any advice I can

    Cheers – I’ll drop you an email this evening – just at work at the minute! 😉

    I always said I’d carry on being employed for the next 3 to 4 years until my daughter finishes 6th form – then go on my own again. A bit of freelance may help bridge the gap though.

    johndoh
    Free Member

    That’s why I’d look to artworking. That’s a skill!

    I cut my teeth being a traditional artworker – I loved the skill involved, the marking up, the hours spent in a darkroom (often sleeping off hangovers LOL). Stripping in lower-case 7pt letters into a mis-spelt word in a 1-column B&W ad for local press – and having to Union-stamp the reverse of the artwork and get it counter-signed by a senior Union official within the ad agency I worked for. We even took pride in having neat fold-over covers for each little bit of work we did, neatly taping it to the back and carefully cutting the overlaps neatly then finishing off with our Agency sticker to the bottom right of the front of the cover (this was right at the end of the traditional period – I started work in ’88 and by ’91 I was using a Mac).

    CountZero
    Full Member

    That’s why I’d look to artworking. That’s a skill!

    I cut my teeth being a traditional artworker – I loved the skill involved, the marking up, the hours spent in a darkroom (often sleeping off hangovers LOL). Stripping in lower-case 7pt letters into a mis-spelt word in a 1-column B&W ad for local press – and having to Union-stamp the reverse of the artwork and get it counter-signed by a senior Union official within the ad agency I worked for. We even took pride in having neat fold-over covers for each little bit of work we did, neatly taping it to the back and carefully cutting the overlaps neatly then finishing off with our Agency sticker to the bottom right of the front of the cover (this was right at the end of the traditional period – I started work in ’88 and by ’91 I was using a Mac).
    Not far off what I used to do, designing books and other stuff, casting off for the typesetter from supplied manuscripts, pasting up the galleys, stripping photos into the negs ready for platemaking, platemaking, then moving on to working on a PC using CorelDraw, then pre-press on Macs using Photoshop, Illustrator and Quark, and operating a Crosfield 6250 drum scanner.
    Much of that disappeared through companies doing their own with desktop scanners and cheap software and desktop machines, and I got made redundant, but that was something outside the company’s control, otherwise I may, possibly, have still been there, but I didn’t have any web-based skills, and had no real enthusiasm for going down that route anyway.
    I was doing film-planning and platemaking, along with a whole bunch of other stuff, up until last June, when I got dumped because the new management structure was demanding ever higher standards of employee standards, every little deviation from 100% accuracy or performance compliance was noted and scrutinised and questioned as to why the mistakes made and how they could be rectified, while ever more work given to employees in the same daily timeframe.
    Doing something completely different now, and really happy at the moment being totally outside of the industry.

    wait4me
    Full Member

    Count that sounds very familiar. I know I’m very very good at my job but relatively expensive. But in the same way that my firm looks at turnover as being the ultimate goal rather than profit, all they seem to look at is what I’m taking rather than what I’m giving. Thoroughly depressing and ultimately I think it’ll be the death knell of many companies.

    Interesting to see so many graphic arts professionals on here. Remember when I went into the industry in 1984 that it was in the top 10 employers in the country. How times have changed.

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