Well it went a bit quiet in here when I watched this…

If close to 100 isn’t fast Weeksy, what speed would you consider to be too fast on a public road past a junction?

He paid the ulitimate price for relying 100% on some random person to know what they were doing and not having an off day. His risk analysis was fatally poor. I knew someone who crashed and died on the A9 nr Auchterarder because a pheasant flew out in front of his motorbike, Police reckoned he was doing around 100mph+ at the time, no other traffic nearby.

If he wanted to pootle at 50mph, he’d have bought a scooter. Selfish as it is, people (we) buy big fast bikes to go fast on.

That’s why I’ve got a big fast bike mate, I agree, but I go fast on it when it’s more appropriate, not at junctions where there’s a high risk of ending up as toast.

T666DOM – Member

If close to 100 isn’t fast Weeksy, what speed would you consider to be too fast on a public road past a junction?

That depends hugely on the conditions, traffic, circumstances and the bike. However, based upon the rest of the thread I think it’s wise for me to stop typing in this one.

Anything above the speed limit is too fast. How is this even debateable? Technically anything above appropriate speed for the road conditions is too fast. Anyone who thinks differently is unsafe and unfit to be on the public roads.

Selfish as it is, people (we) buy big fast bikes to go fast on break the law and recklessly put other peoples lives at risk.

Why don’t you buy a smaller bike which gives you as much adrenaline rush whilst traveling at road legal speeds?

Well on that day it looked dry & clear so for 1 more post from you what would you consider excessive speed passing that junction on that day Weeksy?

Well on that day it looked dry & clear so for 1 more post from you what would you consider excessive speed passing that junction on that day Weeksy?

. sorry, not worth it.

For those who missed the quick edit, Weeksy would be happy at 120

lol cheers.

The issue i have with “speed limits” is this:

The posted limit is entirely arbitrary, it only bares the slightest connection to the actual “safe speed” (there is of course, no such thing as a totally safe speed, as we are talking about balancing speed with risk and probability). The limits were set over 60 years ago, by civil servants sat behind desks, since then, the world and our roads have changed out of all recognition.

However, the greatest effect of excessive reliance on speed limits is that it removes from the driver responsibility and crucially, an important action/process than also increases situation awareness. My next door neighbour is a traffic officer, and the stories he tells are frankly frightening, but what is interesting is that he says these days, almost without fail the first thing drivers say to him at the scene of an accident is “but i wasn’t speeding” as if that makes it all fine then.

IE, the point i am trying to make, is that evidence suggests that reliance on arbitrary speed limits results in drivers that just check they are not speeding and that’s it, back to sleep they go. They never start the “how fast is appropriate at this time, on this piece of road, in these conditions” mental process that is so critical to the velocity/risk analysis process. (it also leads to mono-speeding and things like bunching, tailgating and the “follow my leader” type driving we see all too much of in this country, where drivers simply switch off and just follow the car ahead (usually far too closely!)

The second issue is one of “normality” and “familiarity”. We all drive thousands of miles each year WITHOUT incident. We get used to traveling at a certain speed ie “i’ve driven down this road at 50mph for the last 5 years and not crashed, so that must be ok then” mentality, so 50mph becomes “normal”.

Unfortunately, by “driving by numbers” in this fashion, the driver once again forgets to account for probability (ie, say 999 out of 1000 times that car WON’T pull across your path, so the speed i choose last time to pass them at must be fine.)

As our roads get more crowded, distractions for drivers get ever greater (phones, nav, internet etc) and cars get easier to drive faster (modern cars now accel/cruise easily and quietly at 100mph, so it is easy for non skilled drivers to travel at those sorts of speeds), so accidents result in more severe impacts. And whilst modern car design has gone to amazing lengths to mitigate this, certain road users (pedestrians/ cyclists etc) don’t have that safety net to fall back on.

Unfortunately, the basic issue is one of insufficient training and knowledge. Considering that driving a car or riding a m/bike is the MOST dangerous thing we do in modern life, you can get a driving licence incredibly easily. Unfortunately, there simply isn’t the political or social will to implement stricter licence requirements or penalties, as this would seriously limit who could drive a car (and our society is all about freedom, and mobility for the masses).

For the vast majority of drivers going about their daily business, driving is not an activity in itself, it is just something they have to do to get to the thing they really want to do! (ie, shopping, or work or whatever). Because of that, their concentration and observance are low. We need to make driving a specific activity or task in it’s own right. When you are driving a car, or riding a bike, that should be the focus of 100% of your attention. For most people i’m going to suggest that driving the car sit somewhere at around 30%!

Unfortunately, we also can’t use individual events (such as this bike death) to shape our “average” policy. For most people in the uk, who drive billions of miles annually without incident, even with at best “average skills” our roads are largely safe enough.

What this video should highlight is that it is up to the individual to accept responsibility for their actions and decisions. And whilst a few people who viewed this video might drive/ride slightly differently for the next day or so, unfortunately normality will play it’s part again, and this will be forgotten………..

Very well put Maxtorque

Pulling upto where the car is, I’d have looked up the road, seen the car doing probably the speed limit, judged that there was a good 7-10 seconds before the car got to the junction, and turned. A bike overtaking into a junction at 100mph, yes you’d see it if you looked for it, but having looked up the road, seen it clear upto the next car doing the speed limit, I think I’d have turned on auto-pilot. Maybe I’m doing myself a discredit and I would look up the road again, but it’s very hard to say that and not have the feeling I’d be relying on 20/20 hindsight.

I think you’re doing yourself a discredit, tinas. There is a good 4s between the bike having gone past the car and the car starting the turn. Hard to tell from the video, but it looks like the car was still moving into the turn lane at the point the bike had completed its overtake. Given the bike is dead in front of the car in the natural direction the driver is looking, you have to wonder where else he was looking in all that time. I’m also unconvinced it was a saccade issue, as that tends to occur when you’re scanning to one side – in this case the driver just needed to look straight up the road in front of him.

I’m certainly not suggesting the bike speed wasn’t a factor – I tend to agree with others that he might have survived if going slower – but I see nothing to suggest the court was incorrect in assigning primary fault on the driver, in the sense that he did something that even the majority of incompetent drivers don’t do.

Anything above the speed limit is too fast. How is this even debateable? Technically anything above appropriate speed for the road conditions is too fast.

You’ve got that back to front.

“Technically Anything above the speed limit is too fast. How is this even debateable? Technically anything above appropriate speed for the road conditions is too fast.”

Inappropriate speed is dangerous. Breaking the speed limit is illegal, but not necessarily unsafe. The speed limit is a ‘best-guess’ one size fits all solution.

“wah wah speed wah wah” is a gross oversimplification and unhelpful

That’s not what we are saying.

The posted limit is entirely arbitrary

It is, yes*, but there is a key point that you are missing.

As you say, when people become familiar with a road, or with driving in general, they tend to speed up. When you’ve done something ten times before and not crashed, your speed will creep up and up over time. If we leave people’s judgement on speed up to them, then speeds will just get higher and higher until simply controlling the car and avoiding NORMAL becomes challenging enough. The problem is when something ABNORMAL happens, people are not ready for it.

Absolutely NO-ONE is saying that a speed limit is all you need to be safe. Of course they aren’t. But they have two main benefits.

1) If people were to stick to them, it would prevent speed creep.
2) It should ensure that people are roughly travelling at the same speed, and that makes it a lot easier for everyone to drive safely.

Above all, there is one massive point that no-one seems to have mentioned yet.

Sticking to the speed limit (as long as you are paying due attention to everything) HAS ABSOLUTELY NO DISADVANTAGES. The only reasons for exceeding it are because you want to have some fun, or because you are impatient.

Well, if you want fun, do it somewhere else. If you are impatient, then tough shit. Man the **** up and deal with it.

* actually it’s not. It’s always a safe speed for the environment, outside of any other hazards like junctions, blind bends, etc.

Studies i have seen suggest that “speed creep” doesn’t really occur. People tend to drive at a speed they feel is “safe” instinctively, and that speed is pretty much the speed they keep driving at. In most studies where speed limits have been relaxed, after a “settling in” period most people have continued to drive at very close to the speed they were previously doing.

For example, our motorway speed limit is 70mph. This is exceeded by most passenger car users, and the Police generally don’t now prosecute until people exceed 85mph. If you removed the limit(not that we should!) i would suggest most people would still do around the speed they currently are doing. This is because modern cars cruise quietly and efficiently at about 85mph, but as you increase above this, noise and fuel consumption increase significantly, and you start to “catch” other motorists more quickly, requiring more driving “effort” etc

For the record, i am not suggesting we remove speed limits, just that we focus on driver training, education and bring back real police officers onto our roads, rather than continue this one tracked “speed kills” mantra enforced simply by machine justice!

To be fair, in this case, the lack of “OMG he was doing 97nph!!” from the police etc is to be credited!

I think impatience is a BIG part of modern driving behaviour, and I suspect plays a part in most silly moves I’ve seen.

If I’m honest it’s also the cause of a couple things I’ve been embarrassed at doing myself, and given myself a mental ticking off over.

I’m quite self critical of my driving. But I wonder how many others are out there. *

*Yes Mrs Black golf in in Ripley this morning, I’m talking about you!

That’s not what we are saying.

It might not be what you’re saying, but it seems to be what some are saying.

1) If people were to stick to them, it would prevent speed creep.

So would paying attention to what you’re doing, and that would be exponentially safer all round to boot.

Sticking to the speed limit (as long as you are paying due attention to everything) HAS ABSOLUTELY NO DISADVANTAGES. The only reasons for exceeding it are because you want to have some fun, or because you are impatient.

Well, it’ll take longer to get somewhere. But that’s besides the point; the question isn’t “does it have any disadvantages” (or DISADVANTAGES) but rather, does it have any advantages? Do I gain anything by travelling at a posted speed limit rather than at an appropriate speed to the conditions?

Let me give you an example. Say a road has a 30 limit near a school. Is it safe to travel at 30 down there at 3:30pm? Almost certainly not, there are likely to be kids all over the place, the limit is too high. How about at 3:30am? Am I gaining anything by driving at 30 rather than 40? The limit could easily be inappropriately low.

Reducto ad absurdum, we’re back to having little men with red flags walking in front of cars; there’s no disadvantage to that, right?

The only reasons for exceeding it are because you want to have some fun, or because you are impatient.

There was a documentary on TV a little while ago about habitual speeders. They forced them to drive at the limits and filmed the results. In many cases, they were actually worse drivers; they were bored, disengaged, frustrated and impatient, and their attention wandered.

Now, I’m not suggesting that this is justification of habitual speeding, there’s clearly a training issue there; rather, that it’s not as simple as looking at a number on a pole and blindly thinking “I’m all right, Jack.”

People tend to drive at a speed they feel is “safe” instinctively

Agreed. And it’s safe based on their usual everyday experience. But the point is that it’s the unusual that causes the problem. I had this conversation with a mate who ignored the 50mph speed limit on the A48 into Cardiff (along with everyone else) because it feels slow.

However, he doesn’t know any of the gotchas along it, like when you come around the left hander and find queueing traffic for a sliproad etc. But more importantly, he GAINED NOTHING worthwhile by ignoring it. So why bother? Just relax.

The limit could easily be inappropriately low.

Of course – but variable speed limits are costly to implement on a large scale. However they often do reduce the limits at school times.

So would paying attention to what you’re doing,

Of bloody course it would. But the two aren’t exclusive!

Let me give you an example. Say a road has a 30 limit near a school. Is it safe to travel at 30 down there at 3:30pm?

Limits are Limits though, not advisories. That 30 sign means, even when school is out, there is no traffic, it’s a clear day, and your are a super awesome driver with mad skills, 30 is the max.

Not 30 is mandatory.

Do I gain anything by travelling at a posted speed limit rather than at an appropriate speed to the conditions?

Yes. You save fuel (which is no bad thing) and you are safer JUST IN CASE the unexpected happens.

For the record, i am not suggesting we remove speed limits, just that we focus on driver training, education and bring back real police officers onto our roads,

Of course – and we do (although not enough). That’s why they have speed awareness courses, and why they don’t book you for 80 on the motorway.

But really. Not exceeding the limit is never going to hurt you.

rather than continue this one tracked “speed kills” mantra enforced simply by machine justice!

It’s not one-track. We have lots of campaigns: keep your distance, buckle up, don’t drink and drive, think bike, don’t drive on drugs, don’t drive tired, don’t be an amber gambler, don’t use your phone…

molgrips

Sticking to the speed limit (as long as you are paying due attention to everything) HAS ABSOLUTELY NO DISADVANTAGES.

So why don’t we just set all speed limits to 10mph and there, bingo, 100% safe roads??

The issue, of course, is one of relative speed and not absolute speed. As modern cars get easier to drive and quieter, if we reduce speed limits, all we will get is more “inattentive” accidents and less “driving error due to excessive speed” ones. In the USA, in states where limits were increased from the blanket 55mph, as far as i am aware, no extra crashes occurred statistically speaking. (this is because the difference in absolute risk between 55mph and say 65mph is too small to measure, and is offset by less “falling asleep” type crashes)

Everyone has a natural “speed”. Take the speed you walk at. Ever been behind someone walking down a pavement or in a supermarket that is walking just slightly slower than your usual “gait”? Annoying isn’t it. I bet you just walk past them, rather than sit behind them?

Generally, as most people drive “to get somewhere”, once there speed falls below there natural “we are getting somewhere” speed, frustration and anger tends to set in. Unfortunately, that is the way we are wired, and we can’t change it. Add in peoples ever busier lives and people hate to “waste time” (regardless of the fact they probably “waste” tens of hrs a week on pointless stuff like Angry birds or whatever!!).

So why don’t we just set all speed limits to 10mph and there, bingo, 100% safe roads??

Because 10mph isn’t fast enough. 70/60/30 is.

But you are again arguing about personal car control. That’s a small part of it. It’s about how you interact with other people.

frustration and anger tends to set in. Unfortunately, that is the way we are wired, and we can’t change it

You absolutely can. Perception of speed is very relative. Most people on this thread have talked about how they’ve slowed down from previous driving habits – something I’ve done too.

I used to drive at 80 on motorways, since having a car with an MPG readout I now drive at 70. This feels entirely normal to me, but if I start driving at 80 then 70 soon feels slow.

The posted limit is entirely arbitrary

One last thing before I back off this thread.

The above is sort of true, but not really – at all. they aren’t random, you can pretty much expect where 60s will be, and where 30s will be.

They are a measure of best fit as per a set of guidelines. Its the best we can realistically have. Without measuring the nature of every stretch of road to test different limits, angles, cambers, inclines (many times a year as conditions and road surface change), and then posting speed limit changes every ten meters to ensure total accuracy for the length of the road net work.

There are patterns and guidelines and they are actually there for a reason. You don’t get 30 zones in the middle of the M1, and you don’t get 60s next to the primary school.

I obey speed limits (bit heavy footed leaving them on occasion), but I don’t think they make me immune from error, and I doubt others do either.

Because 10mph isn’t fast enough. 70/60/30 is.

Now we’re getting somewhere. Why isn’t 10mph fast enough? What DISADVANTAGES are there?

What makes 70/60/30 so special?

They are a measure of best fit as per a set of guidelines. Its the best we can realistically have.

Are they?

A bunch of numbers made up in the 60s (or in the case of the 30 limit, 1930) is absolutely the best we can have in 2014?

Really?

molgrips
I had this conversation with a mate who ignored the 50mph speed limit on the A48 into Cardiff (along with everyone else) because it feels slow.

However, he doesn’t know any of the gotchas along it, like when you come around the left hander and find queueing traffic for a sliproad etc.

This^^^ is exactly my point. Your mates “failing” is not exceeding the arbitrary 50mph limit, it is failing to “Read the road” ahead and modify his speed to take account of that! In this case, a blind bend, where a reduction in speed to that at which you are able stop in a distance you can see, is sensible. And, as a result of “reading the road” correctly, on the empty bits where you can see, you can go 100mph quite safely!

In this case, slapping an arbitrary “50mph” limit on a road that for a lot of it’s length doesn’t need to be 50mph simply makes the average driver (who is not very good at reading the road) ignore the speed limit, only to find that suddenly they are going too fast!!

So, two options become suitable:

1) Post a different speed limit sign for every single obstacle or hazard on every road in the country (those would need to be inteligent signs that modify there signage to suit the current local conditions)

or

2) Teach drivers proper roadcraft, so they can make their own decisions about their speed.

Yes.

Reasons they have stayed the same:

1) Whilst cars are much better, roads are much busier.
2) People are used to it and are expecing 60mph traffic
3) It saves fuel
4) In the event of an accident, lower speeds are ALWAYS less damaging, regardless of how good your car’s protection is. People still die out there. It might be fewer than in the 60s but one death is still one too many.

Would you prefer 33.3 recurring, 58.7 & 69.2?

FWIW I agree, I think 25 is actually a better, and easier (in my Mondeo) to stick to than 30.

You can easily in your car measure numbers to the nearest 10, there are little marks on the dial, to the 5 at a push.

Ah, “we’ve always done it this way.” Always the best reason to do anything.

Wait.

Whilst cars are much better, roads are much busier.

I’ll grant you, that’s a very good point.

Teach drivers proper roadcraft, so they can make their own decisions about their speed.

This isn’t possible.

Personally, I’d put GPS speed limit awareness technology on every car, so they don’t need to watch the speedo it just bongs annoyingly when they exceed it wherever they are. Ignore the bongs for too long and your ticket’s in the post. In addition, I’d put dashboard cams in every car, or give you insurance/tax discounts.

There may be a danger in exceeding the 50 limit, but there is definitely not a danger in sticking to it.

Ah, “we’ve always done it this way.” Always the best reason to do anything.

No, not always – don’t be facetious – but it’s often a good reason. People’s familiarity is a significant factor in many cases.

This isn’t possible.

Why not? If people can’t learn proper roadcraft, perhaps driving isn’t for them? At the risk of trotting out a cliché of my own in a thread containing phrases like “Limits are Limits though, not advisories”, driving is a privilege not a right.

Personally, I’d put GPS speed limit awareness technology on every car,

Problem with that is that the people who most need limiting are also the ones most likely to knobble it and go “oh, it broke, officer.”

But familiarity with driving is one of the causes of this video. The big killer on the road is that people treat driving with complete complacency. For some people you might as well be sitting in your armchair at home rather than steering a ton or so of steel at speeds which kill. It is a massively prevalent attitude which I can never understand.

Interesting and it probably took a lot for the family to put the video on Youtube…

A lot of the debate here is covered in a Speed Awareness Course, curiously….

If people can’t learn proper roadcraft, perhaps driving isn’t for them?

Unfortunately, there are many drivers who don’t meet what I’d call a sufficient standard.

Perhaps it could be possible – I don’t know. It’d be difficult and would require a lot of effort in the planning. Maybe not just re-tests but retraining. People are saying the speed awareness courses are good – maybe they could be part of a compulsory retest, with the retest based on a proper driving awareness assessment rather than simply reversing round a corner.

Problem with that is that the people who most need limiting are also the ones most likely to knobble it and go “oh, it broke, officer.”

If the servers don’t get a handshake every so often, you get a warning in the post. If you ignore it, you get a fine like for not displaying a tax disk.

I’d also GPS track every vehicle in real time, and use analytics techniques to send out warnings – ‘you overtook too close to that car, you lose one point from your license’ ‘You overtook through a junction, you lose one point from your license’ etc.

If you don’t like it, tough shit, take the bus.

(I may not be entirely serious in this post, but I am only half joking)

Google self driving cars will hopefully make all of this irrelevant.

Unfortunately, there are many drivers who don’t meet what I’d call a sufficient standard.

No arguments here.

It’d be difficult and would require a lot of effort in the planning. Maybe not just re-tests but retraining.

Sure. Which is why we have such a froth on about speed limits instead. They’re easy.

I’m all in favour of the GPS monitoring of speed as long as it goes both ways. ie “It’s 2am in the morning, you’re in a modern well maintained car with no faults, there’s no other cars on this motorway right now, so feel free to do 150!! “

😉

molgrips
so they don’t need to watch the speedo

The only reason i pay any attention to the speedo in my car is so i can stay in (or around) the arbitrary limits required by our authorities. There is no need to look at your speedo to determine the “safe speed” for any particular driving scenario!

That speed on that on road with the amount of traffic was just idiotic, his whole riding was to be honest, then he overtook a car on a box junction that was in use by another car. This car then foolishly pulled out in front of him and because of the speed the outcome wasn’t good for the motorcyclist.

As someone who drives at high speeds for a living I’d not even considered driving anywhere near that speed on that road even with the light and sirens going full tilt. A very sad and hard lesson has been learnt by all involved, which is what his mother is trying to point out.