Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 150 total)
  • weight loss advice
  • Premier Icon molgrips
    Free Member

    You're talking to us as if we're stupid again TJ. That annoys people…

    Premier Icon coffeeking
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    At the end of the day though he's right, how you get there is your own personal struggle, but at the end of the day, overall, you can't argue with the laws of physics – if cals in < cals out you lose weight. The complexities of how that affects your mood and likelyhood of snacking etc are personal issues, but his primary comment is flawless.

    As someone finding it really hard to lose weight at the moment I agree it often seems harder, but as an engineer I can't disagree with the laws of physics so I know it's just me being a muppet and going about the balancing of that equation the wrong way leading me to fail.

    Premier Icon iDave
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    Forget the recovery drinks, it's just more calories, which you don't need, unless you're doing a high volume of training for performance gains. Yes do some longer rides also if you like.

    also, it's ok to feel hungry. its no big deal, really, most of the world feel that every day. and it's usually thirst you're feeling. drink some water and MTFU.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    you can't argue with the laws of physics – if cals in < cals out you lose weight.

    If there was a Joey smiley on here I'd use it. Do you honestly think a) I don't know about energy balance and b) I'd be arguing about the laws of physics.

    Here's a question – how do you know what your calories out is?

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    Forget the recovery drinks, it's just more calories, which you don't need, unless you're doing a high volume of training for performance gains.

    It helps stop that massively hungry feeling that results from hard exercise without carbs. Which is what nickc seemed to be alluding to.

    I give up, I really do. No wonder tribalchief gets cross.

    Premier Icon coffeeking
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    Do you honestly think a) I don't know about energy balance and b) I'd be arguing about the laws of physics.

    Some people like to argue against them, I don't know you well enough to know what you'd argue, but you seem to be thinking it is more complex than that, which it's not.

    Here's a question – how do you know what your calories out is?

    Thats the difficult part of course, but if you're not losing weight you're obviously not using enough cals. If you know your weight is steady and you know your intake, you know your outgoings. That's fairly simple too?

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    What's practical and useful in the real world is a long long way from simple energy balance (which is my point). So you're not helping much by banging on about it. Reading people's experiences posted here should hint at the complexity of the issue.

    Premier Icon coffeeking
    Free Member

    So you're not helping much by banging on about it. Reading people's experiences posted here should hint at the complexity of the issue.

    But it forms the basis of everything you need to do. I'm not sure most peoples experiences help at all, I've read countless ones and "guaranteed" ways of losing weight, but never found a solution that worked better than eat less and move more. Sure I get cravings/headaches etc if done properly, but if I try to aleviate them I add more cals in and so it stops working. I enjoyed the eating and the resting to gain the fat, I must deal with the pain that comes with losing it too. Beat about the bush making it easier just extends the effort.

    Have you looked at the crash diet they put you on to lose weight for operations – you're down to about 5-700 cals a day, and you have no choice, no matter how miserable you are about it, but the weight falls off you. Again, there's no reason to re-gain weight after a crash diet (providing it's not all about losing hydration) unless you forget to modify your normal eating behaviour too.

    Premier Icon iDave
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    if it was easy there would be no fatties

    exercise intensely, eat less (esp white carbs), drink lots of water, feel hungry quite a lot, lose weight have fun, simple

    Premier Icon Shandy
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    Great thread.

    What was the OP again?

    Premier Icon DrP
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    I'm afraid I often have to agree with the 'eat less, do more' camp, but I also appreciate that it's often easier said than done.
    There are a few truths to acknoweledge though:

    – Very few people in developed society (bar the homeless/those on the poverty line) have experienced true hunger for a long time – a lot of what drives our eating is appetite. This can be seen as the desire for food. Hunger is your body actually needing food. You can easily distract yourself from appetite, but it can be difficult

    – Your body is incredibly efficient at storing excess energy, wheras it's harder to 'get rid' of it. Accept that, and you'll realise that it's not all in vain.

    – Your body isn't always at 'energy crisis' i.e. every single calorie entering your mouth is needed to power the body. By this I mean cutting down 400 calories from your diet (per day) is unlikely to result in 'losing' 400 calories of fat per day, as the body's processes are fluid. Take the opposite – eating 500 calories extra per day (in some people) results in excess heat production to counter the excess calories, as opposed to fat deposition.

    So, although the concept is one of simple physics/chemistry, and generally, the notion of "if you're not losing weight you need to eat less" still holds true, the end result may not be as 'rapid' as you would hope, but bear with it and changes will occur.

    The other thing to realise is that once you make a change to get to a certain weight, you need to maintain that change forever i.e. as soon as you go back to your 'old ways', the weight returns…..

    DrP

    Premier Icon DrP
    Free Member

    You can easily distract yourself from appetite, but it can be difficult…

    I'm a genius!

    DrP

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Free Member

    I'm not sure most peoples experiences help at all

    They do – they tell you the potential pitfalls, and hint at the processes involved and why well-meaning people fail. Us fatties aren't all idiotic gluttons you know.

    you're down to about 5-700 cals a day, and you have no choice, no matter how miserable you are about it, but the weight falls off you

    Right. So it's a great way to fit sustainable weight management into your lifestyle then?

    Again, there's no reason to re-gain weight after a crash diet (providing it's not all about losing hydration) unless you forget to modify your normal eating behaviour too.

    As long as you ignore the body's self-regulating effects. Ever lost weight during illness? When I had it bad both ends, I lost about 3kg, but put it straight back on despite having been at a steady state before, and after the weight gain.

    Theoretically I should've maintained the low weight, if things were as simple as you make out, but I didn't, possibly because of negative feedback effects associated with fat tissue. Have you read this about leptin on Wiki?

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    TC is gonna hate me for this but I lost a shedload more weight when doing long slow rides than when doing short intense ones. When doing speed training I could only maintain weight, not lose it. Cutting calories only made me less able to do the intense workouts… on a high carb diet.

    Premier Icon coffeeking
    Free Member

    The other thing to realise is that once you make a change to get to a certain weight, you need to maintain that change forever i.e. as soon as you go back to your 'old ways', the weight returns…..

    Again, not sure that's strictly true. The change you need to get TO that weight is fairly large, the change to be stable AT that weight is not as great. i.e. If stable at 16 stone I may have to massively drop intake to lose 2 stone in 6 months and reach 14 stone, but once at my ideal weight I can return to almost the same intake as I had originally (slightly less) to maintain that weight. The extra mass doesn't use up vast amounts of extra energy, only small amounts due to increased difficulty in motion etc) so providing you're stable now, you can be stable and lighter while eating the same amount after weight loss.

    Right. So it's a great way to fit sustainable weight management into your lifestyle then?

    How you lose the weight is irrelevant, provding you can identify a sensible eating level after you've lost the weight. If you can't control yourself then after the crash diet youre likely to pile it back on. Thats up to the individual.

    As long as you ignore the body's self-regulating effects. Ever lost weight during illness? When I had it bad both ends, I lost about 3kg, but put it straight back on despite having been at a steady state before, and after the weight gain.

    Yes, I lost 7lb after a 6 day food poisoning mission last year. I regained a small amount immediately through re-hydration, but never re-gained the weight.

    Have you read this about leptin on Wiki?

    I have, but ultimately that's just a mental issue – about appitite control, not about weight levels.

    Premier Icon retro83
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    @tc- why are white carbs worse?

    I assume this means white bread etc is that right?

    Premier Icon The Southern Yeti
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    molgrips for your last comment to hold any weight water I assume you scientifically started from the same body mass before each method of weight loss? or better you lost no weight with high intensity then switched to low intensity and it just fell off?

    Premier Icon simonfbarnes
    Free Member

    how do you know what your calories out is?

    same as my calories in as my weight is a constant +/- 1lb ?

    also, it's ok to feel hungry. its no big deal, really, most of the world feel that every day

    I have that – it makes food taste better 🙂

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Free Member

    I have, but ultimately that's just a mental issue

    Oh, so not at all important then?

    🙄

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Free Member

    or better you lost no weight with high intensity then switched to low intensity and it just fell off?

    The other way round. I did base training and slashed my food intake, and it fell off. When I went to speed work I had to up the calorie intake to maintain performance gain.

    That's the only time I managed to successfully lose any amount of weight without extenuating circumstances (about 8kg in 3 months).

    Premier Icon The Southern Yeti
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    So you lost a lot of weight to start with doing low intensity, then switched to high intensity and didn't lose as much…?

    Well I've never heard of that before… losing a lot of weight to start with and then it getting harder to shift weight as you get slimmer / have less weight to lose? You are a weight loss conundrum for sure.

    Premier Icon ChunkyMTB
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    I lost a shit load of weight after my coffee this morning…..

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Free Member

    Southern Yeti – stop being such a frigging smart arse, I'm desperately trying to have a reasonable debate here and failing…

    I could show you the graph of my weight that year. It goes down sharply at first, then the rate slows a bit but stays steady for a good while, then my weight abruptly goes up about a kg and levels off as my training changes. It does not asymptotically approach a minimum level as you are suggesting.

    If you were looking for evidence of the weight loss effects of different training regimes over a year in one individual, what would you expect to see in a graph? I'd expect to see a discontinuity in the graph, and I did.

    I can't see how this is so difficult to get a consensus on. As I understand it:

    1) Long+slow uses more %age of fat, and develops fat burning metabolism (raises threshold of lactate production).

    2) Short+fast uses less %age of fat, and can result in low blood glycogen levels which raises appetite.

    Cyclists do 1) in the winter when not racing, and 2) in summer. 1) tends to result in weight loss, 2) less so.

    I never thought any of that was marketing bollocks, controversial, not backed up by evidence, or not recommended by experienced coaches.

    HIIT I'm sure results in greater fat loss in some circumstances, but I'm guessing the OP was a cyclist and wishes to get fitter/faster?

    Premier Icon The Southern Yeti
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    Sorry, are you taking measurements as well as just monitoring your weight?
    Intense training might be promoting muscle gain?

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    Intense training might be promoting muscle gain?

    It did. That's part of it, although not all because I did make ad-hoc belt-hole measurements but didn't record them. I lost about 2" on my waist during the base training but it stabilised along with my weight.

    OTOH, I only care about power/weight ratio (being an mtber), so I have to lose weight and gain power.

    Yet another question is which is preferable? Low weight and high power or higher weight and even higher power still?

    The fact that good mtbers seem almost entirely to be small would indicate that the former is more preferable, hence building muscle wouldn't be ideal, no? (note question mark here, I don't know the answer to this)

    Premier Icon RHSno2
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    If you aren't losing weight (and you are over weight) then you are a) eating too much or b) not doing enough exercise.

    How Frickin' complex can it be!!!???

    Premier Icon The Southern Yeti
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    Depends what sort of mountain biking you're doing…… DH/4X/XC/Marathon etc.

    Premier Icon RHSno2
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    What shite!

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    How Frickin' complex can it be!!!???

    Sigh.. it's complex.. most bikers I've spoken to weigh too much and wish they were lighter. So either a) we're all f*cking stupid or b) it actually is complex.

    Whaddya reckon? Are you the ony intelligent biker out there?

    Premier Icon anotherdeadhero
    Free Member

    Man, people who don't want to believe its as simple as calories in vs. calories out don't half come up with some tripe.

    Premier Icon simonfbarnes
    Free Member

    So either a) we're all f*cking stupid or b) it actually is complex.

    or c) we're all greedy 🙂

    Premier Icon nickc
    Full Member

    As with SFB, most people eat too much, and don't "move" nearly as much as they think they need to.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Free Member

    Man, people who don't want to believe its as simple as calories in vs. calories out don't half come up with some tripe.

    Oh my sainted aunt. I am going to go absolutely spare in a minute. Are you people not capable of reading and comprehending a few simple frigging posts?!

    In principle it is calories in and calories out, of course, any frigging idiot knows that.

    However – how to ensure that you can achieve this negative energy balance whilst:

    a) feeling good
    b) doing the riding/training you want to the standard you want
    c) feeling happy about yourself
    d) making sustainable changes to your lifestyle/riding
    e) fitting in the rest of life
    f) being able to keep it up in the long run

    Is quite hard – as evidenced by the number of fatties on bikes on this forum.

    Premier Icon anotherdeadhero
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    No I've read what you've written molgrips, I understand what you're saying and further, I recognise most of it for the usual excuses that get trotted out for being a bit greedy. I'm like that myself. Unlinking consumption of food from contentment is v difficult. Developing self control is difficult, I've given in enough times to know all about it, but I'm not about to start making excuses for it.

    Premier Icon coffeeking
    Free Member

    However – how to ensure that you can achieve this negative energy balance whilst:

    Indeed, but ultimately not really something anyone can help you with – everyone reacts differently, some people envelop themselves in the weight loss and enjoy the experience of punishing themselves into thin-ness, some people find it awful and need to do everything they can to fool themselves into thinking they're still eating as they were before and never having to experience hunger. No-one can tell how you're going to react, people are very varied obviously, so all anyone can advise is less in more out, everything else is just as bad as asking the best way to tackle a rock garden – everyone will have a different approach despite it the general course being "from top to bottom". Ultimately you have to accept that you ate too much, now you need to eat too little.

    If you want fast results you can make a small change and still be happy. If you want fast results you need to make major changes, these may seem less sustainable, but thats based on your own point of view and commitment.

    Premier Icon Shandy
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    This is probably the only sports forum that I can think of where gym-training is widely considered to be unnecessary.

    Premier Icon coffeeking
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    This is probably the only sports forum that I can think of where gym-training is widely considered to be unnecessary.

    Few people here are pro-level, gyms are an unnecessary thing for general fitness and good riding. I know many road runners and road cyclists who have never seen a gym. Gyms are motivational miseries, boredom and single-view hell (IMO). Anything (generically useful, not aimed at weight training) you do in a gym can be done out in the field.

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    I recognise most of it for the usual excuses that get trotted out for being a bit greedy

    It's not an excuse for being greedy. My riding performance and mental performance suffer if I don't get the carb intake to match my carb expenditure whilst training/racing. I have the self control to deny myself, and found that the above suffered. I had to increase my carb intake to improve things, and when I did this my weight stabilised (although perhaps not fat %age).

    Now (when I'm healthy and training well which hasnm't been this year) I listen very carefully to my body and manage my carbs based on that – because I pay attention, I know how I feel when my carb stores are very low or full, or slightly low which is where I try and keep it for an optimium balance of performance potential and also weight loss.

    Greed isn't part of it.

    Premier Icon coffeeking
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    Greed isn't part of it.

    Maybe not now, but that's why your weight is stable. Sure you can't work optimally without the carb intake, but you can't expect to lose weight AND maintain the carb intake – thats just daft. It's like saying I'd like to drive my car but not use any fuel thanks. In order to lose weight you're going to have to suffer a little. Ask any athlete, they don't have a miracle weight loss system. Actually, ask TC – he seems to be about the best authority on this!

    Premier Icon molgrips
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    This is probably the only sports forum that I can think of where gym-training is widely considered to be unnecessary.

    That's cos it's MTBing, and most mtbers are out for a laugh, where as most runners/roadies etc are all about performance.

    Perhaps that's also got something to do with why every discussion about weight ends up with 50% of the 'contributors' saying nothing more than 'put the pies down you pathetic, feeble, greedy, worthless over-eating piece of trash'.

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