We Christians

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  • We Christians
  • Junkyard
    Member

    It’s like laughing at trainspotters or model railway enthusiasts or mtbers.

    do these have a special place in the lords where they get to vote on legislation?
    Do they run schools?
    Do they make pronouncements on homosexuality?
    Do they forbid condom use thereby exacerbating AIDS?
    Did thy spend the last 600 years preventing knowledge excommunication Galileo for saying the earth orbitted the sun etc

    I am aware that much of the doctrine is peace and love but i talso has has rules that must be adhered to despite the evidence they have finally accepted DNA iirc but not evolution….i am not sure what their view is on Dinosaurs.

    The message is not peace and love it is about intolerance , preaching , dictating and making others life according to their view [ marriage for example even though it predates the Church and their involvement by millennia]
    this is why they garner such strong reactions
    TBH less than 200 years ago we would all be in prison for blasphemy if we said this. We are not imprisoning those of faith so who lacks the tolerance again?

    nick1962
    Member

    What it does mean is stores can’t choose to, say, open on Sunday and close on Tuesday. It means that when I’m making a spag bol and find I’m out of (veggie) mince at 6pm on a Sunday, I’m knackered.

    Not in most of Scotland and are there no corner shops near you?

    hilldodger
    Member

    TandemJeremy – Member
    Hilldodger – no – they can do what they like between consenting adults in private.

    So you reject their right to communicate their beliefs in public ? surely that’s the definition of censorship….

    FeeFoo
    Member

    What it does mean is stores can’t choose to, say, open on Sunday and close on Tuesday. It means that when I’m making a spag bol and find I’m out of (veggie) mince at 6pm on a Sunday, I’m knackered.

    OT but, I do miss the quietness of Sundays of my youth when only the paper shop was open in the morning.
    Boring I suppose, but they had a quietness that I’d appreciate now – if not then.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    There’s a difference between holding and communicating your faith, and pushing it on others, obviously.

    TBF, if there’s anywhere that people can try and push their religious values, it’s in the middle of a debate discussing religious values.

    There’s vast a difference between doing it here and knocking on my door on a Sundday morning. More power to their elbow, I say.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Not in most of Scotland and are there no corner shops near you?

    Not that sell Quorn.

    OT but, I do miss the quietness of Sundays of my youth when only the paper shop was open in the morning.
    Boring I suppose, but they had a quietness that I’d appreciate now – if not then.

    Yeah, me too. Perhaps you need to move to a nice quiet parish, where they’re allowed to open on Sundays but choose not to. (-:

    nick1962
    Member

    do these have a special place in the lords where they get to vote on legislation?

    Too right! Mentioned this in the previous thread.The head of state in the UK is the head of the Church of England(the Queen not DC) and all that constitutional guff that goes with it.But we live in a parliamentary democracy so if there was the public appetite for it then we could get rid.

    nick – rationality is accepting things on evidence. Faith is belief without evidence.

    Being rational is not a moral judgement. Its a statement of fact. No religious belief can be rational – indeed in the Christian religion this is implicit in the teachings – ” without faith I am nothing” – there was no pejorative intent in that particularly.

    So I am not assuming moral superiority – that I am a better person – for being rational, whereas the Christian faith it is implicit that those who believe are better people. Its this assumption of moral superiroity that drives the predjudice inherent in chrstianity.

    Its unpleasant to be told you are of less value and a lessor being because you don’t believe

    FeeFoo
    Member

    Yeah, me too. Perhaps you need to move to a nice quiet parish, where they’re allowed to open on Sundays but choose not to. (-:

    Does such a place exist? Sounds like…. heaven. 😉

    Hilldodger – when they do not attempt to tell me what I can and cannot do bemuse of their beliefs then fine.

    Premier Icon leffeboy
    Subscriber

    whereas the Christian faith it is implicit that those who believe are better people.

    bullshit. I know of not a single Christian who believes they are better than people who don’t believe, not a single one. They might want to push their particular viewpoint or have an opinion that should be listened to but that applies to many different sorts of people.

    Its unpleasant to be told you are of less value and a lessor being because you don’t believe

    I can only conclude that you have met some very unpleasant Christians because I cannot imagine someone calling you a lesser being – ever

    stevewhyte
    Member

    No one tells you what to do, everything is possible but not everything is benificial.

    hilldodger
    Member

    So freedom of speech as long as it’s something you don’t disagree with TJ?
    Are you referring to (the minority of) religious extremists or the entire population who hold religious beliefs ?

    nick1962
    Member

    And rationality is subjective and relative and without morality is a recipe for untold horror.
    Edit-Not that Christians have a monoply on morality!

    Leffeboy – it is implicit and very obvious from the outside – look at the quotes from stevewhyte for examples. Its not bullshit its the truth.

    You may not want to see it but is absolutely central to religion that they are superior for believing.

    The patronising and condesending attitude is because of this assumption of superiority. otherwise why the drive to convert? to evangelise? Emphasis of sinners repenting?

    FFS.

    TJ, I begin to think that you have some serious issues. I mean, seriously. Why do you waste so much time and effort on arguments on an insignificant bike forum? Have you ever stopped to ask yourself that?

    I know that others do it too, and God knows I spout more than my fair share of waffle, but you just KEEP ON ARGUING!

    Stop it.

    hilldodger – Member

    So freedom of speech as long as it’s something you don’t disagree with TJ?
    Are you referring to (the minority of) religious extremists or the entire population who hold religious beliefs ?

    All religious.

    Nope – like all freedoms it is limited by the need not to impinge upon anyone elses freedom.

    Do racists have unlimited freedom to espouse their views? No. Should the religious? No – the limits should be the same – you can do what yo want so long as it does not limit someone elses freedom. when you want to tell me what I can and cannot do because of your religion then that is to be rejected.

    Premier Icon kennyp
    Subscriber

    Kenny – “Rational mindset” is not making a moral judgement. Its a statement of fact. Religion is not rational by definition – its a matter of faith.

    Unfortunately the context in which you used the phrase was one could could come across as being of a similar nature to that which you criticise.

    hilldodger
    Member

    leffeboy – Member
    because I cannot imagine someone calling you a lesser being – ever

    well certainly not on the basis of disagreeing with their Christian beliefs and values.

    My understanding of the teachings of Jesus are of tolerance, humility and forgiveness. I cannot see anything offensive, patronising or demeaning in any of these virtues…..

    nick1962
    Member

    The patronising and condesending attitude is because of this assumption of superiority. otherwise why the drive to convert? to evangelise? Emphasis of sinners repenting?

    Lets not get things (any more)mixed up here.
    Some religions and some sects of Christianity don’t prosetelyse.
    Sinners repenting is about acknowledging wrongdoing-which is a good thing surely? You can argue the toss about what”wrongdoing” actually is but the general principle is correct Restorative justice is oft mentione d on here….

    Premier Icon leffeboy
    Subscriber

    You may not want to see it but is absolutely central to religion that they are superior for believing.

    It really isn’t central to religion that they are superior, not it any way. I can see how you might see it that way but I know of not a single Christian who takes that point of view. To them what is central is that there is a God and that they would like to work out what that means for them and how they live. I don’t know of any who think they have it right

    otherwise why the drive to convert?

    Simples – they think they have found out something rather significant and want to share it. There are no points for getting ‘converts’. They just want to pass on something rather fine that they have found out. Sort of like ‘PSA: God exists’ rather than ‘repent or die’

    Premier Icon kennyp
    Subscriber

    You may not want to see it but is absolutely central to religion that they are superior for believing.

    Reading the posts on here I’m afraid it’s the aethiests to come across as believing they are superior. And that’s not through some implicit interpretation; it’s from explicit statements.

    nick1962
    Member

    “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law”

    hilldodger
    Member

    So TJ, your issue is with how a set of beliefs is espoused by some of those who follow them rather than the beliefs themselves ?
    Do you honestly see any harm or offense in the principles of love for your fellow man, humility and forgiveness ?

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Does such a place exist? Sounds like…. heaven.

    I see what you did there. (-:

    Lefgfeboy – can you not see it?

    they think they have found out something rather significant and want to share it.

    thats the assumption of superiority.

    Kenny – every statement from the religious shows this – its absolutely central to religion that its adherents are better people.

    Its so normal to you that you cannot see it – can’t see the wood for the trees.

    Hilldodger – I see much harm in the assumption or moral superiority, hatred and prejudice that religions espouse.

    #right – I can feel the banhammer hovering over me again. I am forbidden to argue on here effectively nowadays. So I will back out and not even answer any more direct questions

    hilldodger
    Member

    TandemJeremy – Member

    thats the assumption of superiority.

    …every statement from the religious shows this

    well the one below certainly doesn’t

    “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven”

    stevewhyte
    Member

    Where do you get this “better people” from?

    Do you feel left out?

    Premier Icon leffeboy
    Subscriber

    they think they have found out something rather significant and want to share it.
    thats the assumption of superiority.

    It really isn’t. It is possible to discover something without imagining you are superior for doing so. I wish I could express this in a way that made sense but I as I said before, I know of no Christians that wander around feeling superior to everyone else. I know of lots who spend time trying to work out what it all means

    Premier Icon kennyp
    Subscriber

    Kenny – every statement from the religious shows this – its absolutely central to religion that its adherents are better people.

    You are guilty of seeing what you want to see. You are reading meanings into statements that aren’t actually there. I’d love to see explicit proof of what you say rather than implicit interpretations.

    A sense of moral superiority is actually what Richard Dawkins is very guilty of.

    Premier Icon leffeboy
    Subscriber

    Its so normal to you that you cannot see it – can’t see the wood for the trees

    ok, now you’re playing. Bedtime methinks

    I really thought I had seen the limit of TJ’s absurdity with regards to religion, and then this little beauty comes along :

    Do racists have unlimited freedom to espouse their views? No. Should the religious? No – the limits should be the same – you can do what yo want so long as it does not limit someone elses freedom.

    So you want to “limit” people’s right to express their religious beliefs in the “same” way as there are limits on people expressing racism ?

    I know you believe that racist views shouldn’t be tolerated on this forum TJ, I now know that you think people’s religious views shouldn’t be tolerated either.

    Which leads me to the conclusion that either A) you don’t think before typing/speaking B) you are really stupid, or C) a complete arsehole. I hope it’s A, I really do.

    Premier Icon leffeboy
    Subscriber

    0 to 273 posts in 7 hours 😯

    Good going but it was only ever going to go one way really

    nick1962
    Member

    I see much harm in the assumption or moral superiority

    😯 on STW!! 😯

    I fear it may be all three, Ernie, but even worse – unknowingly so. Like some sort of Pavlovian response.

    Premier Icon leffeboy
    Subscriber

    I fear it may be all three, Ernie

    are you saying a sort of trinity?

    yunki
    Member

    IME Christians are damned sexy as hell.. and I think that really, when all is said and done, that is all we need to know..

    I will answer this one –

    Ernie – It D by the way – you have missed the point. Still on religion you really do seem to have a blind spot.

    I believe religious views should be limited in the same way as any other. The test is “does their freedom to espouse their religious doctrine impinge upon my freedom?” When it does its not acceptable. Same as racism.

    Why should the religious be able to prevent homosexuals marrying? Prevent the sale of contraceptives? Prevent me doing what I want on a Sunday? at the moment religions have exemption from the equality laws – I would remove that. A religious organisation can refuse to employ people on grounds of their religion.

    When their freedom to be religious means I lose my freedom then its wrong

    We limit freedom of speech all the time – indeed their are laws on this.

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